[Drew2]

Hi All,

My PJ has been away for a service/repair and today we got back the prognosis!

The engineer confirmed that all 3 LCD panels were damaged as they had exceeded 4000hrs of use!
So if you take into account that the bulb should last 5000hrs in eco mode, that means you never need to buy another one - just bin your PJ instead!!

We asked if this was a common issue - and it is exactly what the manufacturer predicted as a natural lifespan for the panels. So we then asked about the new D5 panels and they confirmed that these also will show signs of damage/deterioration at this amount of hours.

Cost of repair is 68,000 yen (350GBP), but they have agreed to give us the panels for free and charge us only for labour and service which amounts to 13,000 yen (68GBP)...

So for the first time a very big " Thank You Panasonic ", but still feel gutted due to the fact that the PJ is only 26months old.

The dilemma is whether DLP chips suffer from the same effects from high usage! Does anybody know?

As yet no LCD PJ should be used to substitute a TV - but it's what I want to do, how do you go back from a 100" screen! The first reasonable sized TV which I find acceptable is a 65V and they ain't cheap!!

this just goes to prove that panasonic isn't all that bad in it's service what seems to be the general feeling around here. hope that in 4000hrs they will give me new panels as well

[fallwood]

Well Ive asked panasonic this question several times and never managed to get a definate answer about the longevity of the lcd panels. Seems to me that theres a bit of misrepresentation going on here, to quote that the bulb will last 5000 hrs and the fact that you can buy replacements would suggest that the pj is good for at least 10,000 hrs.

Why do sanyo supply the Z4 with a free spare bulb, either they are expecting the 1st bulb to blow well before its estimated lifespan or they just do it to make the customer think they are getting a good deal. Very bad news for heavy users but at least we are now getting some actual facts on how long these pj's are gonna last. I think its about time that info such as this was made available to the consumer before purchasing , had I known this 4 years ago It would have definately affected my decision to use a pj as my main display.

Ive been contemplating buying a 42" SD plasma (toshiba £799) for general viewing and this info may just give me that last little push I needed. Just dont know if ill be able to handle watching anything on less than a 5.5ft screen.

Anyone out there qualified to confirm these findings on lcd lifespan.

[artois]

This is really worrying as I have just placed an order for the ae900.

I didnt expect to hear anything like this as I expected that the bulb was the only thing which would cause an issue other than dead pixels.

This site metions lcd panel displays and again the only mention is that of the bulb. Seemingly sharp are the only manucfacturers at the moment that make panels which allow the bulbs to be changed. Shouldnt the same go for the projectors as far as this being the only issue?

http://www.lcdtvbuyingguide.com/lcdt...lifetime.shtml

I will be using mine for xbox360 and movies so expect to be putting in at least a couple of hours a night and maybe upto 6 hours on rainy weekends. No tv whatsoever but thats still a fair amount of usage.

Theres no way I am gonna spend £1300 if its gonna be knackered after a year or two use.

What do you reckon. Should I forget the whole idea?

I was buying this as a treat as its alot of money but I expect it to last at least 3 years.

[fallwood]

Originally Posted by artois

This is really worrying as I have just placed an order for the ae900.

I didnt expect to hear anything like this as I expected that the bulb was the only thing which would cause an issue other than dead pixels.

This site metions lcd panel displays and again the only mention is that of the bulb. Seemingly sharp are the only manucfacturers at the moment that make panels which allow the bulbs to be changed. Shouldnt the same go for the projectors as far as this being the only issue?

http://www.lcdtvbuyingguide.com/lcdt...lifetime.shtml

I will be using mine for xbox360 and movies so expect to be putting in at least a couple of hours a night and maybe upto 6 hours on rainy weekends. No tv whatsoever but thats still a fair amount of usage.

Theres no way I am gonna spend £1300 if its gonna be knackered after a year or two use.

What do you reckon. Should I forget the whole idea?

I was buying this as a treat as its alot of money but I expect it to last at least 3 years.

As a heavy user I've found myself buying a new pj every year as after a year its been knackered, always managed to get them repaired under warranty before selling them but its a pit poor for a product to have such a short lifespan . I would suggest that you try to keep useage to a minumum (defeats the point of having one IMO) so as to prolong its life.

[artois]

That sux beyond beleif. One year usagge. If I was made of money it wouldnt be an issue but I really cant afford a large treat like that every 12 months. Its a lot of money to me so I may have to reconsider. I do have a 3 year warranty though. Will that be covered?

[fallwood]

Originally Posted by artois

That sux beyond beleif. One year usagge. If I was made of money it wouldnt be an issue but I really cant afford a large treat like that every 12 months. Its a lot of money to me so I may have to reconsider. I do have a 3 year warranty though. Will that be covered?

I would check the conditions of the warranty .As I've just found out the sanyo 3 yrs warranty only covers the pj for up to 3000hrs which to me says that they dont expect the pj to last much longer than 3000hrs.

[PJTX100]

Originally Posted by fallwood

Ive been contemplating buying a 42" SD plasma (toshiba £799) for general viewing and this info may just give me that last little push I needed.

To be honest, that makes sense.

I have no doubt that after multiple thousands of hours use (presuming I've still got it ) my PJ won't look as good as the day I switched it on. The only question is how much it will have deteriorated.

For heavy use I'm still not convinced that a PJ is ideal. That said, the way manufacturers are trying to confuse and wangle their way out of their responsibilities still sucks.

[DEANO-B]

With a third of PJ owners using their PJs for over 1000 hours a year this is a major blow to us, the consumer, and the PJ manufacturers. Let me put this a simple as possible - There is NO way of thinking that your PJ should not be used instead of a TV, they (the manufacturers) at no point anywhere state that their PJs have limited usage, and the simple fact is that people are obviously going to use their PJs to watch sports and big budget TV productions as well as playing games and watching DVDs!! The PJ companies sell replacement lamps with the lifespan of a lamp being as much as 5000 hours, and to think your panels are not going to last as long as the lamp is a major mistake by the PJ manufacturers. They have dug themselves a legal hole they cannot get out of and I can imagine that very soon a little asterix (*) will be above every PJ having an extended warranty. Right I'm off to check my extended warranty conditions, at £60 for an extra year it could be the best £60 I've spent

[cyberheater]

I have to agree here. When you see brochures for projectors. You don't see a normal tv being covered up by a pull down screen. You usually see a young afluent couple watching a fixed screen with no other tv in the room.
The implication is clear. These are being marketed as direct replacements for TV's.

Now. If your that worried about the lifespan of LCD then go DLP. They seem to last forever.

[Drew2]

I always thought that the " up to 5000hrs" lamp life was an indication to use the PJ for everyday use. To find out that they really mean Home Theater use is shocking!!

They then presume that you will only use it for a Saturday night blockbuster rental DVD for up to 3hrs making it last you for ever - the replacement bulb is for "old age" rather than heavy use...

Giving you a freebie with purchase is covering themselves for the likely event it goes 'pop' if you clock up quick hours in a short time.

Also interesting to hear that Sanyo have put a limit of 3000hrs on their warranty, just helps to 'highlight' the panels longevity problem!

Cyberheater - Panasonic demo their PJ by covering up one of their TVs with an electric screen - "the penny has dropped!"

[fallwood]

Originally Posted by PJTX100

To be honest, that makes sense.

I have no doubt that after multiple thousands of hours use (presuming I've still got it ) my PJ won't look as good as the day I switched it on. The only question is how much it will have deteriorated.

For heavy use I'm still not convinced that a PJ is ideal. That said, the way manufacturers are trying to confuse and wangle their way out of their responsibilities still sucks.

Considering the panasonic (arggghhhh) TH42PWD7 as its gonig quite cheap at the moment £899 and it will only be used for sky and general background tv (no hidef or dvd). Anyone have any opinions on this set, I'd ask in the plasma forum but you guys will have a better idea of what I'm trying to acomplish.

[Joe Fernand]

Hello all

Panasonic have now moved all of its Installation (read High Usage) Projectors away from LCD and over to DLP.

Panasonic predict the Installation range will only require an actual 'Service' every 40,000 hours and every new lamp (2-4,000 hours depending on the model) will bring the projector back to full factory spec.

LCD panels do deteriorate and even in a clean air environment 'Installed' (high usage) LCD will only last about 3 lamp changes before the panels have discoloured so much that the image is all but un-useable.

Best regards

Joe

[Bert Coules]

Joe,

LCD panels do deteriorate and even in a clean air environment 'Installed' (high usage) LCD will only last about 3 lamp changes before the panels have discoloured so much that the image is all but un-useable.

Thanks for that information. As I reported in another thread, I recently had my Sanyo Z2 (expensively) cleaned because I was getting a marked brownish discolouration on one side and corner of the image. The cleaning fixed the problem, but I'm not pleased to discover that just a couple of months later, the discolouration is starting to return. Is this then a sympom of the failing of the panels, such as you're talking about? Overall lamp life so far has been around 4000 hours, all but one in Economy mode.

I replaced the old (original) lamp at just shy of 3450 hours because the Z2 was switching in to high fan operation at least once a session, and I thought the lamp might be contributing to general overheating (and apparently I was right, for it hasn't happened with the new lamp). Could those instances of overheating have contributed to the renewed browning of the image?

Bert
www.bertcoules.co.uk

[Joe Fernand]

Hello Bert

From what the various manufactures say it does seem to be heat that affects the colour filters on the LCD panels.

I guess the majority of 'Home' Theatre projectors are built with occasional use in mind and its only recently that anyone will have much data on high usage Home LCD.

Best regards

Joe

[artois]

As the technology has improved has this issue become less of a worry or will I still be crying my eyes out at the end of the year when my new ae900 is rendered unusable.

Surely this must be fixable under warranty would it not?

[Bert Coules]

Joe,

Thanks for the speedy reply. Does that mean, do you suppose, that when I sent the Sanyo away for what was described as an "optical clean" it was the actual LCD panels which were cleaned? That suggests that the discolouration was some sort of surface layer, and therefore removable.

Certainly when I first had it back, the picture was transformed: bright and even, with no staining at all. I was delighted with the result (even at a tad over £200) but don't relish having to get it done again so soon.

Perhaps I'll be incredibly brave and try it myself. Or perhaps not...

Artois,

My optical clean was specifically not covered by the guarantee.

Bert
www.bertcoules.co.uk

[Jules]

As a multiple LCD projector owner, I've always understood that they deteriorate over time.
Until quite recently you could easily buy 2 high perfomance LCD projectors for the price of one DLP one, and by the time your first LCD projector wears out technology will be better and cheaper.

If I'd bought a DLP projector 3 years ago, I probably would have replaced it by now anyway....... with an LCD model!

Single chip DLP units have their own problems anyway, typically the spinning colour wheel becomes troublesome at about the same time as an LCD panel shows its age... (I know 3 people who have units that suffered this fate).

If I was to buy any projector on the market today, believing it would still be working like new in 3-5 years time, it would have to be a 3-chip DLP unit.
As I can't afford one, I'd definately still buy an affordable LCD unit (like the AE900 or Z4).

[PJTX100]

Good post Jules. On the nail IMHO.

[Louis Mazzini]

Could part of the problem here be due to high usage over a short period of time? I'm sure it's been said before that if you subject LCD panels to several hours continuous use (i.e. heat) a lot, then they'll deteriorate much quicker. I'm sure the TI "reseach" on the comparitive longevity of LCD vs DLP was criticised for this unrealistic (for most of us) approach.

[Bert Coules]

I'd feel happier about that if the manufacturers had been open about it when describing their products. As far as I'm aware (looking at this from the point of view of a relatively well-informed, but not technically expert, general enthusiast) there was never any suggestion that my Sanyo projector was not suited to be used in more or less the same way as a conventional television.

Bert
www.bertcoules.co.uk

[kesey]

Bert manufacturers are notorious for being shy with complete information in the manuals. The Jesuits tried to give good information by telling the world that guys would go blind if they enjoyed themselves too much. As usual, no one listened anyway.

I expect that is why Sanyo and cohorts are a little reticent. "Human beings cannot take too much truth.." etc.

Originally Posted by Bert Coules

there was never any suggestion that my Sanyo projector was not suited to be used in more or less the same way as a conventional television.

Bert
www.bertcoules.co.uk

I believe if you are using a projector for hours on end day after day, I would not be surprised if it encountered damage, after all, they are not industrial units. I run mine for 3 hours max in a day, maybe three times a week, which I would call "normal" use.

[Bert Coules]

Originally Posted by Fluffy-Bunny

I believe if you are using a projector for hours on end day after day, I would not be surprised if it encountered damage, after all, they are not industrial units.

Neither is a television, a transistor radio or a PC - and I don't expect to have to limit my use of any of them.

The manufacturers are open enough about lamp life, and users, quite rightly, are not surprised that such a component has to be replaced from time to time; but not to reveal that a key part of the projector has such a severe built-in limitation under what for most people are surely perfectly normal operating conditions - that strikes me as underhand.

I run mine for 3 hours max in a day, maybe three times a week, which I would call "normal" use.

And I run mine for approximately six hours a day, seven days a week, which I also regard as perfectly normal for a machine advertised as a television substitute.

Bert
www.bertcoules.co.uk

[Drew2]

As for usage - the Panasonic manual only states. not to run the PJ for more than 8hrs in one session and avoid quick on/off switches. No mention of it leading to panel damage just lamp explosions!

Also feel it's not unreasonable for something to perform like new 3-5yrs down the line if your taking good care of it my cars 11yrs old and still drives & looks like new! My laptop is 5yrs old and has only one dead pixel on it's screen (which was their from new!) and ok it's so slow but still works the same way it did the first day it was taken out of its box.

These are domestic units and as such it's not unreasonable to demand that they perform well and last beyond 4000hrs - to start suggesting they need to used in a dust free air conditioned room doesn't make them home theater use IMO.

How would you feel if you found out that your DVD players loader could only be opened/closed a 1000 times before it failed ! OK if it's a 15 quid cheapy but not if was 1200 quid! If PJs have a domestic use of 2yrs then their price should reflect that ie. 400 quid. That's when I would take it on the chin!!

[fallwood]

Would you believe it , as soon as I jump ship the whole freaking world starts to see my point. Not that its gonna make any difference , my pj will still be dead by the end of the year if I dont start using the plasma for general tv viewing. Maybe if a big enough noise is made about this issue pj's will become fit for general use and I will be able to go back to a single display in a few years .

[Drew2]

Originally Posted by fallwood

Maybe if a big enough noise is made about this issue pj's will become fit for general use

That's exactly what the trading standards law is all about - why are you guys hanging about?

[fallwood]

Originally Posted by Drew2

That's exactly what the trading standards law is all about - why are you guys hanging about?

I've been kicking up a fuss over this issue for years , but as Ive always managed to get things repaired have never needed to go as far as trading standards. Maybe its time I did contact trading standards about this as there now seems to be an increasing number of people using pj's as primary displays who share my views.

Its the noise makers that get things done , not the people who sit back and say "oh well mines all right for me" . Maybe some kind of group petition to trading standards will make more of a difference than a sole person complaining.

[theritz]

I had been resisting getting any further involved in the hysteria about projectors and lamp life and whether they are suitable as substitutes for televisions etc. but can't resist asking about this.....

As far as I'm aware (looking at this from the point of view of a relatively well-informed, but not technically expert, general enthusiast) there was never any suggestion that my Sanyo projector was not suited to be used in more or less the same way as a conventional television.

perfectly normal for a machine advertised as a television substitute

Bert,

You will know that I'm not being picky or taking a pop at you just for the sake of it, but the fact that something doesn't say it's not fit for a particular purpose doesn't make it suitable for that purpose... for instance I'd say at a guess that the literature doesn't explain that projectors shouldn't be attached to the end of a string and be used as kites, but that doesn't mean that theyre suitable for use as kites.... extreme example for illustration.....

I haven't seen projectors advertised as television substitutes and I'd be interested in seeing any you could point me at.....




With regard to other posts and the topic in general, as far as I can remember on the forums there has been a fairly standard line of advice to the effect that projectors are not suitable for use as a substitute for a television (or plasma/whatever).

Claims about 11 year old cars etc don't impress me - when a projector is turned on it's effectively performing at the limit of it's capabilities constantly. Try driving you car at maximum revs 10 hours a day for 11 years and see if it's still like new..... ever wonder why the police change their cars every couple of years ? It's because they're pretty worn out from constant use 24/7.

In the spirit of recent threads on this subject, I was considering starting a new thread with the title "Shock! Horror! Your Projector Won't Last Forever !", but will spare the forum population's feelings.

Just for the record, guys and gals,

This is a projector:

and this is a television:

They're not the same.


Sean.

[calibos]

My Ae300

9970 hours

9-15 hour days

It died


........because I dropped it during a cleaning session.

Panels were fine and just needed a wipe. Blue poloriser was just starting to degrade and would have needed replacement at about 10500 hours.

€100 is all it would have cost me. Went for an Ae900 as the new third bulb I would have needed was another €300 and the panel array (that I dropped remember) was €600

I can't believe you lot are getting worked up over one post from a guy who's repairer in japan happens to hate LCD's. 4000 hour lcd panel life my arse!! (no disrespect Drew. Not questioning your sincerity but your japanese repair guy) Sounds like he read that famous lab test which showed how LCD panels degrade after a similar number of hours. Thing was they ran the PJ's 5000 hours NON STOP! Guess who sponsored the LCD tests? None other than Texas Instruments makers of DLP.

Sure you can't use PJ's like a TV (though it didn't do my AE300 much harm when run in high fan). I'm not saying the things are going to last 60000 hours like a plasme either. But claims of panel degradation to the point of failure by 4000 hours is nonsense. I can imagine my AE300 could have at least hit the big 15000. Picture was beautiful to my eyes after my last clean. (irony was I dropped the panel array after taking the PJ back apart to take pictures for my AE300 dust cleaning guide) The beginnings of blue poloriser degradation was not even visible on screen yet, just upon close inspection of the poloriser itself. I reckon a new bulb and poloriser would have had my ae300 back to looking as good as the day I bought it.

If you are worried guys just turn your fans on med/high and turn the volume up a bit

1100 hours on my 11 week old AE900 BTW