Fujitsu LPF-D711 LCD vs Sim2 CX3 3-chip DLP at Hammersmith What HiFi Show

[edward]

Well, what a surprise! The display of the Sim2 DLP 3-chipper was certainly impressive, especially when the £4000 German lens was rolled in to place – filled the massive screen (300” I think) with an amazing image. The presenter gave a chat about the merits of DLP over other technologies for those that knew nothing. Three points were especially interesting: Hollywood has mandated 3-Chip DLP for theatres; DLP gives a better colour range; DLP gives better blacks.

After having seen the Fujitsu LCD projector, three points became very clear: Firstly, Hollywood came to that decision when the difference between technologies definitely gave DLP the lead but things have changed – its time for them to think again. Secondly, the range of colours becomes academic if the eye can’t make a distinction. It would have been very interesting to have seen them both showing the same program at the same time in the same room, but by running from room to room (about half a dozen doors apart on the same floor), I couldn’t see a colour difference. This brings up another point, the Sim2 was being shown in a much darker room – the Fujitsu room had a lot more ambient light – in fact it was subdued rather than dark and yet the image was still very bright, so the light coming back from the screen in the Hitachi room was probably greater, but then the size of the Sim2 screen was greater. Sim2 claim the CX3 puts out 2500 ANSI Lumens where the LPF-D711 is rated at only 1200. It might have been the screen size but I didn’t notice major differences in brightness. Thirdly, the blacks… the Fujitsu won hands down - I kid you not! Bruce Willis’ Tuxedo against the edge of the frame was completely black; the Black’s in the early scenes from Gladiator showed on the CX3 as distinctly charcoal by comparison. Its interesting too to see blacks against the shadow of people walking through the light path to the screen.

Both systems are outrageously expensive. The Sim2 starts at a lower price but I think it really does need that £4K lens to make it work at its best. I didn’t find out what Sim2 now offers as warranty but the web has a few grumbles about their willingness to fix projectors outside warranty with very low hours (e.g. 370 hours) on them. Against this, the 3-year warranty of the Fujitsu is rather reassuring. If the service attitude is anything like Toshiba’s in the UK, this is very comforting indeed.

Neither of these projectors is exactly quiet, both have 250 watts of heat to dispose of, and the Sim2 is rightly known for the more stylish housings but if I was spending that sort of money, I’d go for the LPF-D711 over the CX3, overcoming a long-held prejudice that favoured DLP over LCD - and that is a surprise.

[UrbanT]

Nicely written Edward. I went to show expecting the C3X to blow me away, and found it rather average and uninspiring. Disappointed

[cyberheater]

I'm struggling here with your impressions.

On the one hand you said the lighting was subdued and on the other hand you said his tuxedo was completely black. Unless they are using some super special screen or the room was pitch black then it's against the laws of physics. The darkest black can not be darker then the lightest light hitting the screen which must be a lot lighter then the black surround. Please explain.

[edward]

No cyberheater, its not my impressions, its just my lousy command of English and perhaps a misunderstanding about the concept of Black. Black to me is the complete absence of light. Charcoal is similar but with some light still present. When someone walks into the light path, part of the image is blacked (or blocked) out. I don't think it is possible to get blacker than that - which is why I used the reference these kind people provided.

Without a side-by-side comparison against exactly the same size and type of screen, some things would be hard to compare, hence that ambiguity in my comarison, but for black measured the way I did it, these aren't factors.

Incidentally, the message in your signature probably makes a lot of sense too - but when you move from the band below £1K to the one above £10K, its all very different - amazing but if you see if for yourself, you see exactly what I'm going on about. When UrbanT (whose authority and credentials in these matters is considerably greater than mine) is also reporting the CX3 is disappointing, its not just my imagination. I was a DLP man, through and through, until yesterday. With this prejudice, it would have been so easy for Sim2 to won my heart (I'd still gladly give one house space - its a great piece of kit) but to be so bowled over by Fujitsu, a company I've never even considered for projectors before...

[cyberheater]

Thanks Edward. I think it's just a matter of time until LCD totally dominate. Once the tech is improved to the point where they don't need all of those dynamic iris's then it will rule the earth.

For me. Contrast/black level is the most important aspect for home theater and I find that LCD is still not there yet. At least not affordable projectors. I wish that projector manufacturers would concentrate on that rather then higher pixel count. One day there will be an affordable LCD projector with CRT projector performance and I'll be first in the line to get one

[RTFM]

With respect Edward, there is no way you can judge black level and shadow detail in a room with any ambient light.

Jeff

[edward]

After yesterday, I'll be meet you in the queue.

Frankly, I now don't care whether its DLP or LCD that I use. I just want the best picture I can get for my money (and I resent being fleeced for new bulbs too frequently). They're both well out of my price range at present but with Fijitsu's entry the high-end 1080 space is getting a little more crowded. With luck, this'll help bring prices down into the "affordable to me" range in a year of two. Trouble is, I need to upgrade now.

I'm still scratching my head about why the LCD was blacker that the DLP. I would have thought it was easier for a 3-chip DLP to reflect no light at all. Maybe someone who knows about these things will join in and explain.

[edward]

Originally Posted by RTFM

With respect Edward, there is no way you can judge black level and shadow detail in a room with any ambient light.

Jeff

Thanks Jeff. Your expertise will be useful here. Perhaps you can explain the flaw in my reasoning that if someone standing in the light path puts no light on the screen and there was no perceptable difference between that and tuxedo black where the darkest black I saw from the DLP failed that test, then one is more effectively producing black than the other.

OK, forest black and tuxedo black might be different but the Sim2 man chose the scene to show of the ability of the DLP to handle subtle shades of darkness. This was the blackest black I saw from all the material displayed - and I was there a long time.

There is no need to pull punches, Jeff, I'm keen to learn.

[Gordon @ Convergent AV]

Edward: I set up the Fujitsu at the Scottish Show. I can state that the LCD is not capable of going as dark as the C3X. There is more to a good image than absolute black level of course. I think that the room environments have had an affect on your perception of what is going on.

May I suggest you look to the new Sony VPL100(RUBY) as a possible contender for your new projector. Not LCD, not DLP...and the one I saw in USA was not bad!

Gordon

[edward]

You could be right, Gordon. I'm the fierst to admit that without everything being the same, its hard to compare. If I'd been able to compare Bruce's black tuxedo in both, I might have reached a different conclusion but on the day, the shadows that acted as my reference for black were indistinguishable from the black in the image. Visitors to both stands were equally obliging in providing a shadow as reference for my assessment if black.

Given my prejudice in favour of DLP, I really wasn't sure that I was right until the friend I was with gave voice to the same observation. He has since sent me this:
http://www.projectorcentral.com/plv-z4_h79.htm

We went to the Sony stand and it was definitely an impressive display. They had the advantage of an image coming off a Blu Ray source, which really didn't make for like-with-like comparisons either.

Really, the only way to settle this properly is a side-by-side shoot-out with a set of knowledgeable but impartial (if there is such a thing) judges like you and Jeff evaluating and reporting back to us. Can't imagine Fujitsu, Sim2 and Sony obliging us though. In the absence of this, it would be interesting to hear your views and Jeff's and others who deal with stuff for a living but are either agents for neither or both.

So, please, if you're able to give us an impartial assessment of the strengths and weaknesses of these products, I'm sure a lot of us would be interested - even though I'm not in a position to buy any of them.

[RTFM]

Here's a different take on the Fujitsu from the AVS Forum

J Fujitsu again showed LFP-D711 1080p (based on D4 1080p panel) using the same feed last year at FPD show in Japan and it looks bad, black is gray, and contrast or picture depth simply are not there. I couldn’t believe my eyes for the film demo (also 1080i based) compared to the beautiful HD video demo. Now, this tells me don’t just use the HD video demo (mostly are shot beautifully to avoid the weakness of display’s capability in black and contrast), we need to watch normal film based materials (be it DVD or HD) to see the black level, contrast and picture depth.

[Timbo21]

I had a look at the C3X in both the Sim2 demo room & in the What Hifi.
Yes, it did look good. It had good blacks & gave a rock solid image. But I must say that the HD demo of Gladiator wasn't that much better than my 7205. Yes, more detail, slightly better depth & blacks, but it really wasn't vastly far off what I've got, & I'm only viewing SD.

Additionally, the C3X was showing more noise than I would have liked. And the demo of Tiger Woods really is not that great; yes, there is more detail of crowd, but I think they really could/should have found a better example. Worth spending the £20000 for pj & lens, not to mention the screen at an extra £4000? I don't think so.

Aside from that, I think it was the stability of the image of the C3X that most impressed me.

The Sony SXRD demo was mostly impressive for the sound. Their subwoofers gave a good kick in the chest on Spiderman 2, which really gave the demo a good lift. The pj is Huuge. I think I prefer the sim2

T.

T.

[edward]

Given that you appear to sell Sim2 PJs, including the CX3, exclusively, RTFM, your knowledge of that product is certainly not in question. However, I think you really should take a look at the Fujitsu for youself. After what we saw on Saturday, I would seriously question the motives/impartiality of the AVS Forum reviewer. I will tell you now, you're in for a surprise.

[Jeff]

It helps if the projector is setup properly, it's no surprise to me if Gordon made a lesser projector look better to some.

[edward]

Totally agree, Jeff.
Gordon, did you set up the Fujitsu for Hammersmith? If so, it would seem that you did a better job than the person who did the CX3 - well done.

I'm not sure it would be fair to say the Fujitsu is a lesser projector simply because it costs less and uses technology that isn't quite as mind-boggling. To me, what makes it a lesser or greater machine is how well it performs in an environment like mine. Maybe I'm being too simplistic.