[soupdragon]

Originally Posted by soupdragon

There's a bit of skull duggery going on with my photo, more on that later

This particular comment of the visible/invisible building got me curious as to whether my projector could reveal it. I wanted to create a photo so that Mooro could point to me where it is - but the photo wouldn't be much use if the building was invisible in my photo too.

Sooooo......

1st up, I got Dr Darbee and cranked him up to 120% HD as he's pretty good at bringing highlights to the deep shadows (I normally have him around 50% on this projector)

I've got 10 default gamma settings on the VW85 so I messed with them all to reveal as much shadow detail as possible. I was pleased to find that my gamma was spot on and I already had the best setting for this particular scene.

There was also the danger of under-exposing the photgraph which would result in crushed blacks and therefore defeat the objective of revealing the building. I therefore took several photos at various exposures and looked at the details revealed in the brightest image and worked my way back towards the darkest images. The images with crushed blacks I dumped and I picked the image with the darkest look, but that still retained all the detail. This is the image I posted. It will look a bit different on everyone's screen but on my iMac, it was a bit brighter than the projected image.
This means my actual projected image is a bit blacker than this (the over exposure raises blacks) and it also means there is some detail in the photograph that I would struggle to resolve with my naked eye when looking at this scene on my projector, as it would be too dark.

So there we have it.

My objective was to show the scene in question and have mooro point out where the building is. As it stands, mooro made his own pics which shows it anyway so it was a complete waste of time

Ah well, I had nothing better to do anyway - my pre-order of the Dark Knight Rises still hasn't arrived yet

[mooro1973]

True Kelvin re iris but remember we had this disabled throughout the whole test.

[soupdragon]

Originally Posted by Avi

I suspect it's gamma related. It would be interesting to have detailed measurement of the luminance curve from the different models to establish what's being applied at the appropriate setting.

Some products may use a custom curve versus flat power law etc and depending on the range and granularity of adjustments in the display chain it may be more or less difficult to achieve a certain goal. I was able to recreate results similar to the images posted above by applying different gamma curves. It's also worth bearing in mind that gamma can be used to exaggerate image elements (see image)that wouldn't usually be as visible applying the typical gamma levels employed during content creation. The effect can be similar to how different exposure settings suppress or accentuate elements of an image when taking photos.

Avi

Your spot on!

[KelvinS1965]

Originally Posted by mooro1973

True Kelvin re iris but remember we had this disabled throughout the whole test.

I'd missed that bit, which further surprises me that the black levels were as good on the Sony as the JVC as native on/off is only around 6-7000:1 on the Sony verses maybe 30-35,000:1 at full zoom/half iris on the X55. I'm quite puzzled by it all...maybe I should go and buy a Panasonic (NOT!).

[krichter1]

Originally Posted by KelvinS1965

Shame I don't have this disc (not a Batman fan myself) as I'd love the challenge of trying to see if I could get the second building to 'appear' using my Lumagen (or if it is already present with my current calibration).

There is also the issue that on a darker scene the Sony's iris will close down, but also it will ramp up the gamma and contrast on some parts of the image to attempt to keep the highlights at the same level as 'pre iris'. This could make certain details more visible, so it could be that even with a 'perfect' calibration on the JVC that the second building isn't as visible. I am more baffled that it wasn't visible at all though as swopping the gamma settings is possibly a little coarse, you would have thought that one setting would bring it in. I also wonder if the Eshift was on for this test as there is the contrast setting in the MPC menu, wondering if this does anything to effect it as well.

Probably all questions I could answer for myself if I had an X55 for a day or so, but as of now I'm not convinced that it gives enough of an improvement over what I have now to justify the extra cost over the X35. Might be tempted just to go for the X35 option purely to get a white case (and the OH happy ) and of course a new lamp. Take £600-700 off for the old HD350 in the classifieds and it's a pretty minor purchase compared to over £4k for the X55 minus the HD350 resale.

I really enjoyed going over to Jagdeepp's place, but the short time I had has left me with more questions than answers right now. Probably better not to rush to any orders just yet for me anyway...

PS: Jagdeepp, your PM inbox is full.

I didn't have a whole lot of time to do this but I too was curious after seeing the X3 photos vs. Soup's 85 pics so I went downstairs and took a couple quick snaps of my JVC RS55 (21pt cal only on Lumagen mini as I haven't got around to doing the 3D LUT yet). I run more about 2.15 gamma on avg using STD CP @D65. Keep in mind this is freehand and w/ the PJ only on about 10min. (and the Darblet OFF). But something has to be crushing blacks on that X3 IMO because I can clearly delineate the buildings on the left and the pics look poor compared to what I see in the theater...

[soupdragon]

Originally Posted by krichter1

I didn't have a whole lot of time to do this but I too was curious after seeing the X3 photos vs. Soup's 85 pics so I went downstairs and took a couple quick snaps of my JVC RS55 (21pt cal only on Lumagen mini as I haven't got around to doing the 3D LUT yet). I run more about 2.15 gamma on avg using STD CP @D65. Keep in mind this is freehand and w/ the PJ only on about 10min. (and the Darblet OFF). But something has to be crushing blacks on that X3 IMO because I can clearly delineate the buildings on the left and the pics look poor compared to what I see in the theater...

The RS55/X70 is a fair step ahead of the X3 with its improved constrast and e-shift. It will actually be very interested to see Zombie's shootout on AVS with the X70 up against the newer X55, with the better contrast X70 versus the new and improved e-shift on the X55. It may actually be cheaper to get a close out deal on an X70 than the new X55 so it will be a very interesting discussion.

As for your 10 minute warm up time, maybe you should let it run a little longer and switch on the Darbee - your missing some boats on the river

[HAWK-EYE]

My eyes can pick this detail out on screen photographing was tricky but this is the best i could do.
Had to overexpose with high iso to show the detail available seen in real life with gamma correctly set (15 squares highlighted as explained in x30-x70-x90 thread)

[soupdragon]

Originally Posted by HAWK-EYE

image


My eyes can pick this detail out on screen photographing was tricky but this is the best i could do.
Had to overexpose with high iso to show the detail available seen in real life with gamma correctly set (15 squares highlighted as explained in x30-x70-x90 thread)

Wow!

The shadow detail in this scene is simply incredible. It just goes to show how much detail is in the blu-ray disk. A lot of us won't be able to actually see some of this detail in the scene due to the limitations of our projector/room/eyesight. I admitted that with my image, some of it I couldn't see with the naked eye and only over exposure brought it out in the photograph. If you can actually see all this finer detail on your screen I think your either (a) an owl (b) a bit economic with the truth or (c) in possession of a very nice projector

[soupdragon]

Thinking out loud....

This thread has had over 3000 views already - I wonder how many people have went to the 37:12 time stamp in TDK to see how it looks on their set-up!

[witchdrash]

Originally Posted by soupdragon

Thinking out loud....

This thread has had over 3000 views already - I wonder how many people have went to the 37:12 time stamp in TDK to see how it looks on their set-up!

I've been trying to find my dark knight blu-ray, without success, damn boxes still full of junk from moving!

[zombie10k]

Originally Posted by soupdragon

Thinking out loud....

This thread has had over 3000 views already - I wonder how many people have went to the 37:12 time stamp in TDK to see how it looks on their set-up!

do you know how long it took me to realize this screenshot was from TDK and not the TDKR? My RS55 is perfect in this scene, it looks just like Kevins.

I'm calibrating a 2nd HW50 today, the buzzing in 3D is much less on this model than the first I saw a few weeks ago. You can still hear it, but it's more quiet than it was before.

The JVC's should be landing very soon in the US, so we'll continue the showdown as well. I'm still waiting on the Mitsubishi HC8000 glasses.

[soupdragon]

Originally Posted by zombie10k

do you know how long it took me to realize this screenshot was from TDK and not the TDKR? My RS55 is perfect in this scene, it looks just like Kevins.

I'm calibrating a 2nd HW50 today, the buzzing in 3D is much less on this model than the first I saw a few weeks ago. You can still hear it, but it's more quiet than it was before.

The JVC's should be landing very soon in the US, so we'll continue the showdown as well. I'm still waiting on the Mitsubishi HC8000 glasses.

Yes, its a very good scene with amazing depth in the shadow detail. Glad your RS55 looks like Kevins and not Hawk-eye's with the red blacks
In my room I can only see about 80% of what is shown in the pics with my naked eye, the rest isn't visible unfortunately. You really don't know what your missing until you see little experiments like this, quite an eye opener. I've 1200 hrs on the lamp so a bulb change will likely help here.

Looking forward to seeing the JVC's land with you and also the AVF reviewers have got the X55 and X75 on their doorsteps so loads more info to come in the coming week or 2

[Steve Stifler]

Soupdragon
I think that the 37 minute still from TDK will be going down in AVF folk lore as a must use test image for assessing black level and shadow detail picture performance for PJs. Yep had a look too!

[soupdragon]

Originally Posted by Steve Stifler

Soupdragon
I think that the 37 minute still from TDK will be going down in AVF folk lore as a must use test image for assessing black level and shadow detail picture performance for PJs. Yep had a look too!

Indeed, it's a reference scene all right, thanks to Jagadeep, Mooro and Ricky J for finding that gem.
Kudos also goes to the producers and the detailed blu ray master- it's clear why many regard this as a reference disk for picture quality. Too often you watch movies and the blacks are crushed no matter how good your set up is.

[mooro1973]

Had another play with my x3. Used the avs calibration disc to set black/white. Read on a forum that a custom gamma of 2.2/2.3 was pretty accurate o.o.t.b.

This is what happened:

Wow! What an improvement. This taken with a mobile phone too.

Jagdeep and I have been having a chuckle this evening about how 37:12 has gone viral. Funny old world.

[RICKYJ]

Originally Posted by krichter1

I didn't have a whole lot of time to do this but I too was curious after seeing the X3 photos vs. Soup's 85 pics so I went downstairs and took a couple quick snaps of my JVC RS55 (21pt cal only on Lumagen mini as I haven't got around to doing the 3D LUT yet). I run more about 2.15 gamma on avg using STD CP @D65. Keep in mind this is freehand and w/ the PJ only on about 10min. (and the Darblet OFF). But something has to be crushing blacks on that X3 IMO because I can clearly delineate the buildings on the left and the pics look poor compared to what I see in the theater...

I have just managed to get the X55 out of the box after the Sunday shootout. The settings are the same, and I can see much more shadow detail than I did on Sun, including `the building`. I can only think the black signal was being crushed due to a handshake or something else as the brightness was set up at the demo....?

[KelvinS1965]

What source was used for this film Ricky? Just wondering if there was an offset black level if it was the media player/PC (though I know you did have a BluRay player as well).

Or maybe the JVC switched to 'normal' HDMI when it should have been 'Enhanced' (or whatever the X55 calls it) as that would crush black detail and no gamma tweaks would help in this case?

[mikeybabes2]

So the question is - does this invalidate all your hard work over the weekend .... ?

There seem to be so many settings available that it's hard to have a true side by side comparison, as another tweek to a setting changes everything ...

[RICKYJ]

Originally Posted by KelvinS1965

What source was used for this film Ricky? Just wondering if there was an offset black level if it was the media player/PC (though I know you did have a BluRay player as well).

Or maybe the JVC switched to 'normal' HDMI when it should have been 'Enhanced' (or whatever the X55 calls it) as that would crush black detail and no gamma tweaks would help in this case?

It could quite well of been. I am not a HTPC man, give me a standalone bluray anyday.

The sony interpreted it correctly, but possibly the JVC did not pick it up right. I don`t know..

[RICKYJ]

Originally Posted by mikeybabes2

So the question is - does this invalidate all your hard work over the weekend .... ?

There seem to be so many settings available that it's hard to have a true side by side comparison, as another tweek to a setting changes everything ...

There was a lot more to the demo than one scene, much of which was run through a bluray player and looked fine It is hard to do a side by side, but it can be done..

This thread is highlighting the importance of basic testing/setup and calibration though

[mooro1973]

Yes I agree Ricky.

As for the showdown, I am glad that the JVC does indeed show shadow detail properly. Overall I would still have preferred the Sony, especially with the difference in price. If they had cost the same, then I would have been minded to call it a draw, the Sony for bigger screens, the JVC for smaller.

[mikeybabes2]

Well I'm glad we have you guys to do it for us. I think after an hour or so of testing I'd just stick on a good movie and get out the beer and peanuts - which wouldn't be too helpful for everyone else.

So you guys didn't ....... Nah ... you would't have....

[KelvinS1965]

Originally Posted by mikeybabes2

So the question is - does this invalidate all your hard work over the weekend .... ?

There seem to be so many settings available that it's hard to have a true side by side comparison, as another tweek to a setting changes everything ...

Not sure about Jagdeep and Mooro, but it certainly makes me more hopeful that the JVC could look even better. It does sound like the missing building was a bit of a red herring though and I know Ricky went to a lot of trouble beforehand to calibrate the projectors in order to make it a fair comparison, so it's a shame if a handshaking issue or HTPC 'quirk' effected the result. I think Jag and Mooro preferred the Sony's motion which probably wasn't effected by this issue.

Personally I'm not committing either way until I've seen the Sony and JVC(again) over at Ricky's place. If it means I miss my Christmas delivery, then so be it as I'd rather be sure than regret it later. I've still got the HD350 anyway, so not like I haven't got anything to watch over the break, but I'd like the next projector to last 3 years if possible, hence my caution.

[mikeybabes2]

Originally Posted by KelvinS1965

Not sure about Jagdeep and Mooro, but it certainly makes me more hopeful that the JVC could look even better. It does sound like the missing building was a bit of a red herring though and I know Ricky went to a lot of trouble beforehand to calibrate the projectors in order to make it a fair comparison, so it's a shame if a handshaking issue or HTPC 'quirk' effected the result.

Personally I'm not committing either way until I've seen the Sony and JVC(again) over at Ricky's place. If it means I miss my Christmas delivery, then so be it as I'd rather be sure than regret it later. I've still got the HD350 anyway, so not like I haven't got anything to watch over the break, but I'd like the next projector to last 3 years if possible, hence my caution.

Well, I couldn't wait until the weekend, so I've unboxed my X35 and temporarily set it up on a table. I've really only played 2D stuff, but quite frankly I am thoroughly delighted with it. My last PJ I had for nearly 9 years (mind you it was a good one) and the I can see the X35 keeping me happy for a long time to come.

I now understand what people mean when they say the JVC is 'filmic'. It sounds like the choice between the Sony & the JVC may be a tough call to make.

[KelvinS1965]

It's more that two avid JVC fans both seemed to prefer the Sony that makes me think I should at least see it. I have a mental block about the dynamic iris (which they didn't even turn on). Cine4home measured the 50ES's contrast with the manual iris and it was less than what they measured for the HD350, so it's not just down to the raw figures (though possibly ANSI contrast as I'm sure I read that the Sony is higher than the JVC).

Good to hear how happy you are Mikeybabes2. I had a horrible sinking feeling when I set up a new projector once and it's not something any AV enthusiast wants to happen.

[s_inman]

Great thread chaps .

I was in the same position recently with regards to an update, in the end I decided to hang on to my 350 for a little longer.. Hope I've made the right choice!

[soupdragon]

When it all boils down to it, all the projectors on offer these days are all excellent. You often get threads on the forums on which is the best projector but in reality, there is no such thing as a best projector. There are so many factors which make up a great image, with some preferring great sharpness, or great blacks, or top motion or quick lag times...the list goes on. Add in all the different content we use them for, the different rooms, the different screens - its enough to probably put Einstein's head in a pickle!

Bearing in mind we've had almost 4000 views and counting on this thread - spare a thought for the newbie's - Any newbie coming along to read some of these threads and also over on AVS, they will have their head melted trying to decipher which one to choose if they can't do a home demo such as Jagadeepp

But for all those a little bewildered trying to take it all in (and I include myself in that bewilderment) you can rest assured that they all throw an tremendous image and the scale of 100+ inches in your home theatre is a wonderful thing regardless of which projector it is - all this crazy analysis which I frequently find myself getting sucked into is just for the nut-jobs that want to find the Holy Grail!

Edit: but it's great being a nut-job and a home theatre enthusiast. I'll take that over being a trainspotter/stamp collector any day

Edit 2: my name is soupdragon and im a projector-holic. It's been 3 weeks since my last projector

[crabalocker]

Originally Posted by mooro1973

Yes I agree Ricky.

As for the showdown, I am glad that the JVC does indeed show shadow detail properly. Overall I would still have preferred the Sony, especially with the difference in price. If they had cost the same, then I would have been minded to call it a draw, the Sony for bigger screens, the JVC for smaller.

Hi, I have already pre-ordered the X55 and based on your last sentence, do you think the X55 will have a hard time lighting up my 153"/389cm diagonal or133"/338cm wide 16x9 screen? The X55 will be a 2D movies only machine. My W7000 is the second of my 2 projector set up, used for regular TV, video games and 3D.

I know the screen you saw it on was bigger than mine, any problems lighting it up?

Thanks.

[mooro1973]

No problems at all. Managed to light up a 4m wide screen easily.

[mikeybabes2]

Originally Posted by KelvinS1965

Good to hear how happy you are Mikeybabes2. I had a horrible sinking feeling when I set up a new projector once and it's not something any AV enthusiast wants to happen.

Actually, there was a little wobble. In the dark of the room I put on the DVD rather than the Blu Ray disk of a multi disk movie. When I saw the picture quality for a few seconds I did a double take, until I realised my mistake....

I've always been a fan of Sony, they have made some fantastic stuff over the years. However, I've got the JVC now and I'm very pleased with it. I'll wait to mess with 3D until after I've installed it properly, but I can't watch 3D on my TV for very long, and I don't think it will be any different on a PJ.

Anyway, I've just had to pack it all up until the weekend when I've got to get it all wired in permanently, but couldn't resist a little play.