[drbob]

This is my first post this forum, so hello everyone :-)

The Sanyo PLV-Z3 is around the same price as the Infocus 4805. Does anyone have any idea of how the two compare? We've been able to get a demo of the 4805 and were very impressed but can only get the Z3 by mail order, so no demo and I'm a little worried about jumping in feet first, this is the first time we're buying home cinema equipment.

There are no HD transmissions in the UK (and unlikely to be for several years) so that aspect of the Z3 is less important, however PAL DVD's have 576 lines of vertical resolution so the 4805 scaler would be removing detail (to fit the 480 line dlp chip), whilst the z3 would be scaling up the picture (to 720 lines). Is the difference in resolution really that important for video (as opposed to colour depth, contrast, deinterlacing etc)?

We'll be using the projector in the living room with a 92" screen and whilst lights can be dimmed there will be a low ambient level at most times. From what I've read the 4805 is brighter when configured for video than the Z3. Also how does the contrast of the Z3 compare to the 4805, both are rated 2000:1?

Running costs worry me a little, the 4805 has 4000hr lamp life, the Z3 doesn't have published lamp life but if I go on the basis that it is the standard 2000hrs that means double the costs with the z3. Though 2000hrs is 4-8 years at 5-10 hours viewing per week, so I'm not sure if I should be worrying about this.

If anyone out there has experience of both the 4805 and the Z3 I'd really like to hear your opinions. Thanks in advance for any help/advice.

regards,

drbob

[Oakleyspatz]

The resolution on the Sanyo Z3 is higher than the 4805, but this very rarely shows itself on the 4805 which has hi-end Faroudja video processing( the same as found on Infocus's much more expensive SP7205 model) This really does give the 4805 a superbly 'filmic' image that the Z3 lacks.
The Z3 being an LCD model does suffer more from the 'chickenwire' problem and also being LCD looks more artificial, and 'processed' than the smooth image produced by the 4805. I would say in a side by side comparison, the 4805 has the more natural, filmic image and the Z3 has the sharper high res image. The contrast will look better on the 4805 as DLP naturally beats LCD in this department.
Sky have said that High Def tv will be brought in towards the end of next year so that may figure in your decision although again the Faroudja scaler is fantastic at scaling the image to it's native resolution.
I would say that if DVD is your primary choice of material, then the 4805 will be the better buy.
JUST CHECK THAT YOU DON'T SUFFER FROM THE dlp RAINBOW PROBLEM!!!!
The 4805 has addressed this issue with a 6 segment colour wheel, but still a few individuals will suffer occasionally from the rainbow issue. Suprisingly, people with blue eyes suffer the most from this problem!!

[Comer]

Originally Posted by Oakleyspatz

The resolution on the Sanyo Z3 is higher than the 4805, but this very rarely shows itself on the 4805 which has hi-end Faroudja video processing( the same as found on Infocus's much more expensive SP7205 model) This really does give the 4805 a superbly 'filmic' image that the Z3 lacks.
The Z3 being an LCD model does suffer more from the 'chickenwire' problem and also being LCD looks more artificial, and 'processed' than the smooth image produced by the 4805. I would say in a side by side comparison, the 4805 has the more natural, filmic image and the Z3 has the sharper high res image. The contrast will look better on the 4805 as DLP naturally beats LCD in this department.
Sky have said that High Def tv will be brought in towards the end of next year so that may figure in your decision although again the Faroudja scaler is fantastic at scaling the image to it's native resolution.
I would say that if DVD is your primary choice of material, then the 4805 will be the better buy.
JUST CHECK THAT YOU DON'T SUFFER FROM THE dlp RAINBOW PROBLEM!!!!
The 4805 has addressed this issue with a 6 segment colour wheel, but still a few individuals will suffer occasionally from the rainbow issue. Suprisingly, people with blue eyes suffer the most from this problem!!

Very informative post, (very interesting about the blue eyes) Have you seen both of these projectors and under what kind of conditions and from what source.

Conor

[drbob]

Originally Posted by Oakleyspatz

This really does give the 4805 a superbly 'filmic' image that the Z3 lacks.

Thanks for the info. Have you viewed both side by side?

The Z3 being an LCD model does suffer more from the 'chickenwire' problem and also being LCD looks more artificial, and 'processed' than the smooth image produced by the 4805.

Interesting. The reviews of the Z3 all state that screen door effect isn't a visible at a normal viewing distance, are you saying that it is a problem or just that you can see the "chickenwire" if you look up close to the screen whilst it's not there with the 4805?

The contrast will look better on the 4805 as DLP naturally beats LCD in this department.

They nominally have the same contrast, how significant is the difference in your opinion? Does the lower contrast on the Z3 spoil some dark film scenes?

Sky have said that High Def tv will be brought in towards the end of next year so that may figure in your decision although again the Faroudja scaler is fantastic at scaling the image to it's native resolution.
I would say that if DVD is your primary choice of material, then the 4805 will be the better buy.

arrg even after your helpful tips I'm still torn! :-)

JUST CHECK THAT YOU DON'T SUFFER FROM THE dlp RAINBOW PROBLEM!!!!

Luckily when we viewed the 4805 we didn't notice any rainbow.

Originally Posted by Oakleyspatz

The Z3 being an LCD model does suffer more from the 'chickenwire' problem and also being LCD looks more artificial, and 'processed' than the smooth image produced by the 4805.

In my opinion the Z3 does NOT suffer from chickenwire.
There is no way I can detect any pattern even up close to the screen.

LCDs might have looked artificial and processed in earlier versions.
But not anymore. The Z3 gives a very smooth and movie-like picture.

I have no doubt that a DLP, like the 4805, will give an even smoother picture but the gap isn't as big as portrayed.

[azzo]

I have to step in here.
I saw a 4805 in sevenoaks last week and to be honest was a little shocked at it's screen door effect. The lower resolution of this projector also makes the movie a little blocky. Very little rainbow problems for me though.
I was looking for an upgrade on my AE100 and I thought that the 4805 wasn't signigicantly better!
I am yet to see a Z3, but am actively looking.
Azzo

[Oakleyspatz]

The 4805 you viewed may not have been connected to it's source via component which is of course the ONLY way to use it. S video or dare I say it composite is juts not doing it justice. It must be connected via component ( or DVI/HDMI)to allow the faroudja to do it's business properly.
From 2x screen width with component connection I see no chickenwire at all on the 4805 but did notice it on the Z3 in brighter areas of the image. side by side the Z3's image did indeed look more 'processed' than the 4805, but this difference was not that large. But still, I chose the 4805 over the Z3 for it's smoother more filmic image.

[zAndy1]

There is no screendoor (chicken wire) visible on my Z3 and I'm not exactly sat far away from my screen!

Cheers
Andy

[azzo]

Fair enough, (it was using component, but not PS).
Interesting that you would choose the 4805 over the Z3.
I wonder how many other people would do this. I guess it's what you wath on it. I mainly use my PJ for computer games, which I'm guessing would suit a higher resolution.
Has anyone compared the 4805 against the old sharp Z91.
They are now similarly priced.
Azzo

[Oakleyspatz]

I think the fact that my main, if not only use of my 4805 is to view DVDs and the vast majority of my DVD collection is Region 1. The 4805 matches the resolution of Region 1 DVD perfectly so needs no scaling up or down. The Z3 has to down scale to display a Region 1 DVD (480 lines of resolution compared to the Z3's native 720). Maybe this is why in my demo I found the 4805 to be more filmic with my selection of discs I took ( Region 1's).
They say that the best way to input a DVD signal is interlaced and not progressive anyway as the Faroudja's De-interlacer is far better than most found on sub-£600 DVD players!!

[galewis1]

I bought my 4805 before the Z3 was released, so I never had the chance to demo it. But, tbh it would have to be a significant step up from the Z2 / AE500 crew (which I did demo) to rival the 4805.

Yes, the resolution is lower, but DLP combined with the Faroudja processing (assuming you don't have a high end DVD player with pal/ntsc progressive capabilities) mean that for DVD viewing at least, the image is so natural and 'film like', that LCD at this stage of development really has its work cut out to keep up. However, beacause of the low resolution, you do need to sit at least 1.5 screen width away, otherwise you will see the pixel structure.

The Z2 and AE500 were (i'm sure the Z3 / AE700 are the same) flexible in terms of mounting position (lens shift et al). So if you're really concerned about mounting, it might sway the decision.

I don't know what a Z3 is retailing for (£1400 ish?). Bear in mind that you can get a brand new boxed 4805 of fleabay for under £900, you'll have to do some very hard demo-ing before parting with the extra dosh.

HTH

Gary

[drbob]

I've now managed to organize a demo of the Z3, it's booked for next week. Unfortunately I won't be able to view it side by side with the 4805 (two different dealers) but I'll go for a second 4805 viewing the same day. I'll update this thread with how I think they compare.

[Bogeyed]

Hello all,just joined the Forums so bear with me if I totally mess things up. I went for a demo of the Infocus 4805 a couple of days ago and oh dear! I really tried to like this machine. Excellent contrast and brightness in low power mode, reasonable low noise,DVI input,but there it was-the dreaded rainbows.I tried to ignore them but the more I tried the more the little devils flashed before my eyes. 'Gladiator 'was by far the worst culprit during the fight scenes and 'Lawrence of Arabia' nearly rainbow free but I dont know if I could live with it. I still believe DLP technology to be superior but until 3 chip machines appear ata cheaper price what do I do now? If the Z3 is as good as some say then I suppose it will have to be,but getting a demo around West Yorkshire seems difficult. Anyone know who is demoing the Z3 locally?
Oh yes,I do have blue eyes !!

[drbob]

Bogeyed, I've organized a demo of the Z3 from Universal AV in Bradford. See here for more info.

regards,

drbob

[zAndy1]

Just please make sure it's the demo doesn't let the projector down by nature of what's connected to it. If possible use a HDMI dvd player that can output 720p, it does make a difference. If you're happy with what you see during the demo trust me you'll be amazed by what you see when you get it home and set up properly!

Cheers
Andy

[drbob]

Originally Posted by zAndy1

Just please make sure it's the demo doesn't let the projector down by nature of what's connected to it. If possible use a HDMI dvd player that can output 720p, it does make a difference. If you're happy with what you see during the demo trust me you'll be amazed by what you see when you get it home and set up properly!

We're working to quite a tight budget which won't stretch to an HD dvd player. If the Z3's internal scaling chip isn't up to scratch that could be a dealbreaker for us. I'll let you know once I've seen it (not til late next week)

[drbob]

Well we viewed both projectors last friday and we went for the 4805 in the end. Here is my evaluation

Firstly I must say that we didn't see the Z3 in optimal conditions as the demo room in Leeds sanyo office had no blinds to cut out all light (though this is similar to the living toom we will be using the projector in) as it's mainly set up for business projector demos. However it was late afternoon and starting to go dark outside, with the lights off the room was pretty dim. Also the dvd player whilst connected with RGB scart to the Z3 wasn't progressive scan. I didn't run any test patterns to evaluate scaling. Screendoor was not evident from a minimal distance away. I felt the Z3 had a slightly more detailed picture than the 4805 e.g The men in black scene where Will Smith and Tommy Lee Jones stand talking outide the alien gun dealers pawn shop early in the film, I could make out the button on Lee-Jones's jacket (shiny black button on black jacket) whereas on the 4805 it wasn't visible apart from the occasional glint. We liked the lens shift and future proofing given by the higher resolution. The Z3 is definately quieter than the 4805.

So far you're probably wondering why we went for the 4805? The things which swung us were:

Despite the lower resolution the 4805 image looked smoother due to the better deinterlacing, important for non progressive tv that we will watch through the projector (our budget will never stretch to an external scaler, I'm sure that with a DVDO iscan or a lumagen box the Z3 would look smoother but it's not a possiblity for us). The Z3 had lots of noticeable jagged edges with interlaced input.

The black levels of the 4805 are noticably better.

I was also influenced by the cine4home Z3 tuning report (Translation), to get 6500k "cinema" colour you either have to sacrifice contrast (resulting in 900:1) or get the PJ professionally calibrated (xtra money, but results in around 1400:1 contrast with a lens filter) I couldn't view the projecors side by side to verify this but the 4805 comes pre calibrated to 6500k and I felt the colours looked more accurate on it compared to the Z3 in cinema mode. We would never have gotten the Z3 calibrated professionally.

The 4805 is brighter than the Z3, in our cinema room - multipurpose living room with limited light control this is v important.

If anyone has any questions, ask away and I'll do my best to answer.

regards,

drbob

[Oakleyspatz]

Yay drbob !!!...At last, I've given some advice that was actually correct !!!
Glad you chose the 4805, great little pj for the money. I love mine.
Danny

[ROne]

Originally Posted by Oakleyspatz

The resolution on the Sanyo Z3 is higher than the 4805, but this very rarely shows itself on the 4805 which has hi-end Faroudja video processing( the same as found on Infocus's much more expensive SP7205 model) This really does give the 4805 a superbly 'filmic' image that the Z3 lacks.
The Z3 being an LCD model does suffer more from the 'chickenwire' problem and also being LCD looks more artificial, and 'processed' than the smooth image produced by the 4805. I would say in a side by side comparison, the 4805 has the more natural, filmic image and the Z3 has the sharper high res image. The contrast will look better on the 4805 as DLP naturally beats LCD in this department.
Sky have said that High Def tv will be brought in towards the end of next year so that may figure in your decision although again the Faroudja scaler is fantastic at scaling the image to it's native resolution.
I would say that if DVD is your primary choice of material, then the 4805 will be the better buy.
JUST CHECK THAT YOU DON'T SUFFER FROM THE dlp RAINBOW PROBLEM!!!!
The 4805 has addressed this issue with a 6 segment colour wheel, but still a few individuals will suffer occasionally from the rainbow issue. Suprisingly, people with blue eyes suffer the most from this problem!!

You are generalising on many accounts - DLP doesn't naturally beat LCD in the contrast department, some LCD units have higher than contrast than some DLP units. But I would say the best DLP has probably better contrast than the best LCD, besides LCD is making a huge leap forward.

It's not true also that the LCD always suffer from more processed picture - this can be a attribue of the scaler/de-interlacer. At the end of the day if your source is DVD or any digital medium - it is by virtue processed, there's no getting away from this.

While the faroudja scaler is better than some pixel-works scalers that I've seen recently in the beamer's, it's not given they are always better just because it's branded this way or that. My HTPC's scaler is probably as good as any hardware solution out there.

The Z3 suffers from the least chicken wire effect I've seen on a LCD unit, I would say non-existent at normal viewing distances.
You have to appreciate it's pros and cons, and what you can live with that counts.

At the moment the Z3 is a bargain in terms of price/performance and this needs to be factered in when choosing a projector for most people. DLP's tend to be more expensive than LCD's which is not an inconsiderable factor.

Besides I have yet to see a DLP which wasn't throwing up all over the screen with rainbows - but I admit I've not seen one of the absolute latest models so there you go.

[drbob]

That's true. Whilst the Z3 had no visible chicken wire I felt that vs the 4805 the 4805 had the edge in black depth and deinterlacing (though the Z3 picture was slightly more detailed). I'm sure that other recent LCD's such as the sony HS51 are better than the 4805 on all counts, but it's an extra grand.

If you have a dedicated viewing room that you can make totally dark the Z3 might be a better choice, but I felt that for my particular situation the 4805 beat it.

[Oakleyspatz]

Yes ROne, I was indeed generalising. With regards to contrast ratio, I meant that for a given contrast ratio, say 2000:1, a DLP will 'generally' look better than an LCD with the same specified ratio. and generally as a technology, LCD by it's very nature will produce more chickenwire than a DLP.
The 4805 has a fantastic Faroudja De-Interlacer which is well above the spec you would expect for a £1300 projector, infact, it is the same Faroudja found in their £5000 7205 model. I have auditioned both the Z3 and the 4805 side by side and in my opinion, the 4805 although not as detailed as the Z3, had better video processing, a more filmic, smoother image, less 'noise' and much deeper blacks. I saw no sign of rainbows and this, like drbob was what swayed me to buy the 4805. If my main interest was Hi-Def then I may have made a different choice, as it's DVD and mainly region 1, the 4805 was the one for me .
But at the end of the day, we all have different opinions and that's why the Z3 and the 4805 are both selling so well!