[respect10]

I would like to paint the wall where I do a projection. I do not want a screen, because it interested me a projection on the wall. Is this possible? What color is best to use? Any advice is very welcome..

[24 P]

Goo Systems

Something liike this is required, but make sure you prepare the wall, as flat as possible, or you will see defects.

[Harpmaker]

Goo is a premixed commercial paint solution to painting your own screen, but it is also easy to mix your own; see this thread for details - DIY projector screen paint finally found for the uk! - black widow

To help you further we will need to know what projector you are using, how large you want to make your screen and how much light from other sources (other room lights or sunlight) will be in the room when viewing.

[confused88]

Originally Posted by 24 P

Goo Systems

Something liike this is required, but make sure you prepare the wall, as flat as possible, or you will see defects.

I noticed a lot of the defects on my walls only after I projected on them

[24 P]

Yow will a smooth surface to get rid of any surface stretching, shrinking...

[respect10]

Originally Posted by 24 P

Goo Systems

Something liike this is required, but make sure you prepare the wall, as flat as possible, or you will see defects.

Which of these colors is the best? Guess one of the two most expensive in the list? Do not want to make the wrong choice ..Goo Laden

[respect10]

Originally Posted by Harpmaker

Goo is a premixed commercial paint solution to painting your own screen, but it is also easy to mix your own; see this thread for details - DIY projector screen paint finally found for the uk! - black widow

To help you further we will need to know what projector you are using, how large you want to make your screen and how much light from other sources (other room lights or sunlight) will be in the room when viewing.

I buy a HD20. Room dimensions are 5.4 x 4.4 meters. I want the larger the diagonal screen that is about 3 meters or 3.5 meters. The room can achieve complete darkness.
Anyway thank you guys for helping me..

Any advice for me, a beginner is welcome. I will have a lot of work around all this. But they are sweet passion

[Harpmaker]

Originally Posted by respect10

I buy a HD20. Room dimensions are 5.4 x 4.4 meters. I want the larger the diagonal screen that is about 3 meters or 3.5 meters. The room can achieve complete darkness.
Anyway thank you guys for helping me..

Any advice for me, a beginner is welcome. I will have a lot of work around all this. But they are sweet passion

The HD20 is a nice PJ, but it needs help in producing deep blacks. The answer for this problem is to use a darker gray screen. The HD20, especially at your desired screen size, has lots of image brightness so a gray screen will work fine.

If you want to go Goo, I would use their "Ultra Grey" color, but if you are willing to build your own mix (it's only two components) I would highly recommend the Black Widow UK mix. It is just a tad darker than Goo Ultra Grey, but it has about the same "peak gain" (0.9) while giving a much wider viewing angle than Goo (the Goo screen will lose more image brightness the further you move away from viewing the screen head-on, say from sitting in the middle of the couch to sitting on the end). BWUK is also a lot less expensive than Goo if cost is an object.

[respect10]

Originally Posted by Harpmaker

The HD20 is a nice PJ, but it needs help in producing deep blacks. The answer for this problem is to use a darker gray screen. The HD20, especially at your desired screen size, has lots of image brightness so a gray screen will work fine.

If you want to go Goo, I would use their "Ultra Grey" color, but if you are willing to build your own mix (it's only two components) I would highly recommend the Black Widow UK mix. It is just a tad darker than Goo Ultra Grey, but it has about the same "peak gain" (0.9) while giving a much wider viewing angle than Goo (the Goo screen will lose more image brightness the further you move away from viewing the the screen hean-on, say from sitting in the middle of the couch to sitting on the end). BWUK is also a lot less expensive than Goo if cost is an object.

thanks man..ok,so i need a darker screen for hd 20...and black widow uk is the best..that you recommend..
can you send me some link for that bwuk..to see what is look like..and where i can buy it?can i order it from the internet?i'm from croatia

[respect10]

Can you explain the gradual process for painting the wall. ate there exists a special basis for this color? or wall only needs to be cleaned and then put color, no big philosophy

[Harpmaker]

Originally Posted by respect10

thanks man..ok,so i need a darker screen for hd 20...and black widow uk is the best..that you recommend..
can you send me some link for that bwuk..to see what is look like..and where i can buy it?can i order it from the internet?i'm from croatia

That thread is right here at AVForums: DIY projector screen paint finally found for the uk! - black widow

I don't like to use the term "best" for Black Widow UK, or any other paint, since what is "best" will differ from one persons screen to another due to many factors including personal preference. BW would be a very good choice for you due to the size of your screen and your bright PJ. Another good choice would be a simple neutral gray flat/matte paint about the same shade as BW; but if you can mix BW it would be better.

Black Widow UK is the version of Black Widow using paints available in the U.K. (BW was designed in the U.S. using U.S. paints). Can you get house paint in Croatia made to NCS tints? How about RAL tints?

To explain a little, Black Widow is a paint that you mix yourself and consists of only two different paints. The base paint is regular flat or matte interior house paint. This paint must be a specific color. In the NCS color system that color is s0907-y70r. The other paint used is made in America, but is sold in many other countries; it is Auto Air Aluminum - Fine. For the U.S. mix, 8 fluid ounces of AAA-F is mixed into 32 fluid ounces of the base paint and then it is ready to apply to the screen.

Both the house paint and AAA-F are water-based paints.

Black Widow is a paint that is a fairly dark neutral gray in color, but has aluminum flakes in it which makes it more reflective than just the base paint alone.

Can you explain the gradual process for painting the wall. ate there exists a special basis for this color? or wall only needs to be cleaned and then put color, no big philosophy

There is no special way to apply BW, it rolls or sprays on like any other water-based house paint (it is 80% house paint).

The wall needs to be clean and as smooth as possible. The metallic element in the paint tends to show texture differences in the wall.

It is recommended to paint the wall with a white primer before applying the BW.

If you could take a photo of the wall you want to paint and post it here it would help in further recommendations.

[respect10]

Originally Posted by Harpmaker

That thread is right here at AVForums: DIY projector screen paint finally found for the uk! - black widow

I don't like to use the term "best" for Black Widow UK, or any other paint, since what is "best" will differ from one persons screen to another due to many factors including personal preference. BW would be a very good choice for you due to the size of your screen and your bright PJ. Another good choice would be a simple neutral gray flat/matte paint about the same shade as BW; but if you can mix BW it would be better.

Black Widow UK is the version of Black Widow using paints available in the U.K. (BW was designed in the U.S. using U.S. paints). Can you get house paint in Croatia made to NCS tints? How about RAL tints?

To explain a little, Black Widow is a paint that you mix yourself and consists of only two different paints. The base paint is regular flat or matte interior house paint. This paint must be a specific color. In the NCS color system that color is s0907-y70r. The other paint used is made in America, but is sold in many other countries; it is Auto Air Aluminum - Fine. For the U.S. mix, 8 fluid ounces of AAA-F is mixed into 32 fluid ounces of the base paint and then it is ready to apply to the screen.

Both the house paint and AAA-F are water-based paints.

Black Widow is a paint that is a fairly dark neutral gray in color, but has aluminum flakes in it which makes it more reflective than just the base paint alone.


There is no special way to apply BW, it rolls or sprays on like any other water-based house paint (it is 80% house paint).

The wall needs to be clean and as smooth as possible. The metallic element in the paint tends to show texture differences in the wall.

It is recommended to paint the wall with a white primer before applying the BW.

If you could take a photo of the wall you want to paint and post it here it would help in further recommendations.

We're sorry that so many beginner's set of questions and really thanks for help and advice on this

I am unable to get this s0907-y70r.Do know where can I order? I can get to Dulux paint. this one is good? Using Grey Steel 2
Can this Dulux mixed with fine-AAA?

Cinema will be located in the basement house.is only planning for the future, but I have a unfinished basement just waiting to do for movies and then I'll put pictures.Projection wall is 4.5 X 2,7 meters so you can imagine them for now..

And what does it mean NCS tints and RAL tints?

[Harpmaker]

No, mixing AAA-F with 'Grey Steel' will not make Black Widow. While that combination would be a reflective paint, it would not be a neutral gray.

NCS and RAL are Color Systems or Color Spaces that are used to define colors and they give tint formulae (for making different colors) for reproducing those colors in paint. Tints are what are added to white paint to change it to the desired color.

Natural Color System - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAL_(color_space_system)


I know that the U.K. uses the NCS system and Germany uses RAL, I don't know what color system Croatia uses for coloring paint.

Can you take a sample of a color to your paint store and have them match it? This is usually done by taking the lid of the old paint can or perhaps a small piece of an object that has been painted, such as a cabinet door, to the paint shop. They will then use a device connected to a computer to take a reading of the color and then they can make paint in that color for you.

If you can have paint color computer matched this way, I can mail you a sample of the correct base color for you to take to the paint shop and have matched.

Can you get the Auto Air Aluminum - Fine? It is a paint designed to paint cars and motorcycles, but some stores selling artist paints also carry it.

[respect10]

Originally Posted by Harpmaker

If you can have paint color computer matched this way, I can mail you a sample of the correct base color for you to take to the paint shop and have matched.

Can you get the Auto Air Aluminum - Fine? It is a paint designed to paint cars and motorcycles, but some stores selling artist paints also carry it.

Yes i can have paint color computer match..

I would be grateful if you sent the mail all that i will need to take to a paint shop..i will sent you a mail adress on pm...

And i can get AAA-fine from the internet and probably at a some local dealer

[custard10]

Originally Posted by respect10

I am unable to get this s0907-y70r.Do know where can I order? I can get to Dulux paint.

there is a possibilty that the dulux store can mix up s0907 y70r.

s0907 is an NCS paint which dulux used as their older tinting system until they moved on to using the master palette.
the dulux stores in the UK and atleast a few other european countries still store NCS codes on their computers and are still able to mix it up.

no harm in taking the code to your nearest tinting outlet and finding out.

[respect10]

Originally Posted by custard10

there is a possibilty that the dulux store can mix up s0907 y70r.

s0907 is an NCS paint which dulux used as their older tinting system until they moved on to using the master palette.
the dulux stores in the UK and atleast a few other european countries still store NCS codes on their computers and are still able to mix it up.

no harm in taking the code to your nearest tinting outlet and finding out.

Thank you for this information it is good to know that maybe still capable of.

If i can get it in the Dulux Trade,how much paint do I need for 3-meter diagonal screen, and how much aaa-fine i need to order from internet(e bay maybe?).Ratio is 3 (s0907): 1 AAA-fine as i can read in the other threads?

[custard10]

Originally Posted by respect10

Thank you for this information it is good to know that maybe still capable of.

If i can get it in the Dulux Trade,how much paint do I need for 3-meter diagonal screen, and how much aaa-fine i need to order from internet(e bay maybe?).Ratio is 3 (s0907): 1 AAA-fine as i can read in the other threads?

the ratio is 4:1 not 3:1.

the AAA can be ordered off ebay.

i'm struggling to remember the amounts needed for your size of screen but i'm sure Harp can jump in with some figures....

[Harpmaker]

Originally Posted by custard10

the ratio is 4:1 not 3:1.

the AAA can be ordered off ebay.

i'm struggling to remember the amounts needed for your size of screen but i'm sure Harp can jump in with some figures....

Generally, I like to use about 1 fluid ounce of paint per square foot of screen, but I never worked that out for metric measurements.

[respect10]

Originally Posted by Harpmaker

Generally, I like to use about 1 fluid ounce of paint per square foot of screen, but I never worked that out for metric measurements.

I will roughly calculate that .. don't worry thanks,harp,cust10..
it is better to make more if needed later

[MississippiMan]

respect10,

You should consider Silver Fire 2.0. It has higher gain (1.2 vs BW's .9) yet produces deeper perceived Black Levels ...something essential for the HD20, of which I have already done 2 similar Screens for. Silver Fire is good enough to have recently obtained it's UK Patent, and the essential "colorant" ingredients are available to DIY'ers for affordable shipment to anywhere on the Planet. The "Base' ingrediants are available via local outlets or off the web.

When doing a DIY Screen, there exists no reason to pull up short on performance considerations.

Do it right the first time, and there will be no reason for a "next time".

[respect10]

Originally Posted by MississippiMan

respect10,

You should consider Silver Fire 2.0. It has higher gain (1.2 vs BW's .9) yet produces deeper perceived Black Levels ...something essential for the HD20, of which I have already done 2 similar Screens for. Silver Fire is good enough to have recently obtained it's UK Patent, and the essential "colorant" ingredients are available to DIY'ers for affordable shipment to anywhere on the Planet. The "Base' ingrediants are available via local outlets or off the web.

When doing a DIY Screen, there exists no reason to pull up short on performance considerations.

Do it right the first time, and there will be no reason for a "next time".

What are the main differences between silver fire and BW?

What are the ingredients and where can I get? What is the difference in the price of making silver fire or BW? What is more complicated and harder to do?
And the main question which is better?
Harp,cust10...What do you think??

[Harpmaker]

Originally Posted by respect10

What are the main differences between silver fire and BW?

What are the ingredients and where can I get? What is the difference in the price of making silver fire or BW? What is more complicated and harder to do?
And the main question which is better?
Harp,cust10...What do you think??

I'm not sure what the ingredients are of the U.K. version of SF. If their cost is similar to those of the ingredients in the U.S. version the cost of SF is 2 to 3 times that of BW.

SF is far more complicated to mix than BW. The U.S. version requires the measuring and mixing of 9 different paints and 4 of these must be measured in very small exacting amounts.
BW doesn't need to be measured at all (at least the U.S. version), just empty the 2 different paints required into a bucket and mix.

SF must be sprayed on, rolling is not an option.
BW can be rolled or sprayed.

The claims of SF are based on opinion with very little fact to back them up.
BW's specifications have been obtained through scientific testing to industry standards.

My first DIY screen was a Silver Fire screen and even though it was made according to the official formula at that time it hot-spotted for me.

Which is better? That depends on how you define "better".

[mech]

I did a review of SF here.

In a nutshell, Silver Fire hot spots. And it's color reproduction is a bit confusing as the spectro reading shows 100 points higher than D65 and yet the calibration temp shows 70 points lower. I've seen funky things happen with regards to these two measures before - like I said earlier, the Supernova. But these were with layered technology which is way more advanced than Silver Fire could ever dream of. Unless one wanted to examine the aspects of Silver Fire under the microscope, I think it's safe to say that the shifting is due to the massive quantities of mica mixed within a large amount of polyurethane in an attempt to mimic 'pop' yet only results in fizzle. It's like the firework that goes off in the launcher, cool for a second or two, but quickly disappointing. I'm a bit unsure where 'pop' became hot spot with added graininess from the paint itself.

Silver Fire has also been touted as an ambient light screen paint. I tested the darkest mix and Silver Fire comes no where near Black Widow with regard to black levels in ambient lighting. And as for the brightness of Silver Fire, sure it's bright in the hot spot. Beyond that, it's on par with Black Widow with regard to levels.

One final thing to mention is the amount of tedium to this mix. Parts of it are measured in ounces, parts in milliliters requiring different measuring tools. And the milliliter measures are of the thick artist acrylics - of which you use less than a tenth of the bottle for both blue and yellow. It's a pain to mix and when you're done you'll have enough to do several screens as the total ounce count lands at 104 ounces. Which would be enough to do several screens.

This is my second Silver Fire mix. It ended up better than the first. But it's still not a usable product.

I'll end this review in noting that I have been in contact, again, with one of the originators of this mix and have, again, requested a sample directly from them. I am still waiting....

[mech]

Here is some of the data gathered re: SF.

A few weeks back I started working on a mix called Silver Fire. Silver Fire is a mixture of numerous mica based paints, polyurethane, and a white latex paint. This is my second time mixing up the formula - the first time was one of the original mixes and it had a bad blue/red push. This new mix uses Liquitex artist acrylics. The second time around produced different results from the first via the spectrophotometer. According to the color temp calculated by CalMAN, silver fire comes in 100 points away from D65. But as we've learned over time, this only paints part of the picture for some mixes. The more complicated the application, the more data needed to come to a conclusion. One needs only look at the dnp Supernova review to see what an application that does not have a good spectrophotometer reading can do with a projected image. The Supernova is ISF certified and rightly so. But we're talking about Silver fire. During the process I sampled the base components, the color components, Silver Fire lite (less color component added), and Silver Fire.

Here is the color component

Here is the base

Here is Silver Fire lite

Here is Silver Fire

Here is a reference spectro reading from an X-Rite N5 gray

To go along with this I also took calibration readings from my Silver Fire panel. These readings consist of 0-100IRE grayscale images in increments of 10. It also consists of gamut readings which are 75% white, red, green, blue, cyan, magenta, yellow, and 100% white. The software used for both these readings and the spectro readings above is CalMAN Enthusiast. My spectro is an X-Rite i1pro which has been factory calibrated each fall since I've owned it. For the calibration readings, I use a Colormunki Create colorimeter. Supposedly this colorimeter is much better on the lower end than my i1. But I haven't seen enough to be convinced. I do know that it is much faster at getting the readings.

So without further ado, here is the calibration reading from the silver fire panel

For comparison purposes, here is the reference reading directly from the projector (BenQ w5000)

The things that stick out are that it appears to have a red push to it and the CIE chart shows all of the colors pulling towards red. We also went from a spectro reading that was 100 points higher than D65 to an average color point reading of 70 points less.

As Harp has said, SF is more complicated, more expensive, and easier to screw up. Also keep in mind that I have done no gain readings on the current SF mix so numbers that Maurice states are nothing more than numbers he has made up. Although my preliminary check, nothing more than a whim while getting readings, showed the gain to be around 1.1 in the hot spot area and much less off center. Off center it's less than BW.

[wbassett]

I've talked about this before on other forums-Gain.

Gain is the number 1 misunderstood and misquoted, and dare I even say abused screen spec out there.

Let me explain...

I constantly see people talk about gain as if it is a magical knob on the screen that is used to increase 'pop' and 'wow' and other terms I generally hate to use. More often than not 'pop' is actually hot spotting that is being passed off or confused as a bright and lively picture.

Gain is a tool used to achieve the required screen brightness for a given setting. For a dark room with total light control it is 12fL of brightness at the screen (ISF standards, THX is 14fL). For settings with more ambient lighting, the screen brightness will need to be more. So based on that, either a brighter projector is needed or a screen with higher gain is needed.

Too much gain is actually a bad thing. Check with the big companies and they will say the same. Da-Lite, who happens to sell the very popular High Gain Screen material states that the ideal screen is one that has a matte surface that acts as a diffusive material and has a gain between .9 and 1.1- with the ideal screen being a unity gain diffusive screen.

Also note that just because a screen is listed as a .9 gain doesn't mean it has no gain. If a screen is a dark gray say the shade of a Firehawk which is around an N6 gray, without any optical treatments the normal gain for a shade that dark would be around .6 or thereabouts. So a .9 gain is actually an increase in brightness.

Another thing I constantly see, mainly in the DIY community, is claims of a 1.4 or higher gain screen with a 180 degree viewing cone. This is impossible. As gain increases viewing cone decreases. Yes I know some out there will argue about this and just about get to the point of a fist fight, but it is the laws of light and physics, not something anyone on a forum made up just for the hell of it!

So yeah, gain is a tricky subject and depending on how the gain is achieved makes a big difference too. Gain that is achieved through lots of gloss and sheen is never the way to go. It is not a knob or adjustment, and the entire theater setting needs to be taken into account, especially the projector being used, before someone should even start talking about gain and if it is even needed. Anytime a person immediately jumps on gain first and makes it sound like the only important screen spec there is... well they either don't know what they are talking about or they do and are saying misleading things to make one option sound better than another. Again, don't go solely on what I am saying, talk to the pros.

[respect10]

Originally Posted by mech

Here is some of the data gathered re: SF.



As Harp has said, SF is more complicated, more expensive, and easier to screw up.

This is most important

[wbassett]

Originally Posted by respect10

What are the main differences between silver fire and BW?

What are the ingredients and where can I get? What is the difference in the price of making silver fire or BW? What is more complicated and harder to do?
And the main question which is better?
Harp,cust10...What do you think??

Respect I am new on this forum but not to the PJ community... if you need credentials just ask Harp, custy or mech

Okay... The difference besides price and being much more complex is that SF uses two totally different approaches.

First they use micas/iridescence to provide the 'gain' and irredecence is the last thing we want in our screens. Do a quick Google search of it then come back...

... back? Irredescence causes refraction and a shimmering effect, think oil in a mud puddle, that rainbow effect is irredescence. That's what mica does and why it is used. It's nothing we are making up either, just a few simple searches and clicks and you can read all about it. For artists it is a cool effect. It's also used for custom car paints, but refraction is not what we want for a screen.

As much as certain people try to condem the work and research we put into Black Widow, Scorpion, and Cream&Sugar, the research really is valid. We dropped mica's and irridescence in favor of non-interference methods and true D65 neutral screens. Actually we have been advocates of this way longer than even the commercial guys who are now tauting the Joe Kane Screen.

That doesn't mean the industry hasn't known about D65 neutral, it just wasn't a marketing buzz word until recently. Again... buzz word or not, we have been advocates of it for years.

Again, Mica refracts. Just look it up, it's the nature of mica and why it is used.

Companies like DIY Theatre use non-interference methods and have done a lot of research on micas and refraction and decided the negative side effects weren't worth the 'pop' as some call it. I also agree with them and Black Widow was born from a quest of looking for a way to improve image brightness with a non-interference method while also keeping the screen neutral and from hot spotting.

The second difference is SF is a mix that was made by eye while we actually did testing and sampling to ensure it is neutral. As good as a person thinks their eyes are, nobody can tell if something is neutral by eye. Simply put, everyone sees things differently, but spectrophotometers see things as they are. I know the 'theory' and claims that certain people are making is that their 'colorant component' is 'specially formulated' to produce a neutral screen that spectrally responds to RGB better than any other screen out there. Sounds great, but it simply isn't true. Ask for proof or a single test reading and you'll hear about the evils of data and testing... which should throw a huge red flare up right there. Instead you will hear about years of experience and 'empirical testing'. Thing is... we have that too! And we can roll, spray, or even recommend a great commercial screen! It all depends on the person's skills, budget and requirements, not because we have a business and want to sell a screen and do the installation. Just think about that for a minute and it's pretty clear who has an agenda and who doesn't.

Here is the bottom line. If a spectro sees something as neutral it doesn't care how it was made, it is neutral. Period. There is no debate. Same as there is no debate that mica refracts. That is its nature. Some people say anything to support their method or opinion, especially if there is money involved. We actually prove it beyond any doubt... even though there are people that try to discredit things. Once again, we don't make a dime off this. Ask others that want you to PM them about buying a premade 'colorant' mix or full 'screen paint' if they can say the same!

Some think all of this is confusing, and it can be, which is exactly what certain people want it to be, but... just ask for the proof. If someone is making claims of the 'best'... then they should be prepared to back those claims up. I know we are.

We do not do anything that is not industry standards. We also are willing to show the test results. And, we are not professionals selling anything or making money from paid installations! If we can do that then I think everyone should ask the same from those that do this for a living. And if a professional resorts to name calling because we present both actual data as well as empirical data... well... I think we'll let you guys decide...

[wbassett]

Back on topic,

I also agree that for your situation and setup Black Widow would do very well for you.

[respect10]

I have yet one question. What is the point of buying full HD project (hd20) if 100 percent of full HD on the wall, colored black widow can not achieve or can?is this possible?

And what is the difference between completely white walls and industrial white screens?

[mech]

Originally Posted by respect10

I have yet one question. What is the point of buying full HD project (hd20) if 100 percent of full HD on the wall, colored black widow can not achieve or can?is this possible?

I'm a bit unsure what you're asking... What is 'full HD' and how can Black Widow not achieve it? I'm a bit confused. A paint mix can only reflect the image that you project upon it. If you project a 1920x1080 image and it's painted with Black Widow (or C&S or Scorpion) to the proper size, it will reflect the image being projected onto it back at you accurately. Ala D65.

Does that help?