[sidicks]

Originally Posted by travid

Hence the good to substantial bonuses.

Agreed 100% !

(but the issue under discussion was about working hours not about remuneration etc!)

[la gran siete]

Originally Posted by pandemic

The sluggish economy has got nothing to do with laziness, yes laziness exists, but it's no worse than it was 10, 20 years ago.
The real reason for the sluggish economy is simply the fact we've got ourselves into a double dip recession and it doesn't help that the £ has strengthened considerably against the dollar/euro. Notoriously these recessions hit manufacturing pretty hard, you may have come across the Caterpillar job losses in the news recently; which no doubt will have knock on effects to other manufacturers.
I've posted previously (other threads) that 'work shyness' needs to be tackled, however I don't believe it's the cause of the double dip recession or our current failure to 'grow' the economy.

or it could be a matter of the government attempting to pass the buck and hide the fact thats its their own policies which are badly affecting this nation.
I fully accept that there are areas in the workplace that need improving but to suggest that Brits are basically lazy is just way out of order

[la gran siete]

Originally Posted by sidicks

1) certainly the vast majority of employees in investment banks and asset management companies will have waived their rights to the EWTD.

2) very commendable, I'm sure that in some parts of the public sector NHS) this is much more common than others??

However in investment banking not only is there no overtime, but you wouldn't bother keeping count of your extra hours as you would never have any expectstion of getting them back!!

whatever happens in the financial sector should in no way should act as a tenplate for others to follow.The EWTD is clear should be adhered to and penalties should be harsh where abuses take place.I have no problem with people volunteering to do extra hours but they should not be coerced, bullied or threatened with the sack for not doing so.

[sidicks]

Originally Posted by la gran siete

whatever happens in the financial sector should in no way should act as a tenplate for others to follow.

I'm not sure anyone is suggesting it was a template for others to follow..

Originally Posted by la gran siete

The EWTD is clear should be adhered to and penalties should be harsh where abuses take place.

Of course, but is anyone claiming that abuses are taking place?

Originally Posted by la gran siete

I have no problem with people volunteering to do extra hours but they should not be coerced, bullied or threatened with the sack for not doing so.

You need to accept the requirements and expectations of a job - if you aren't prepared to comply with those requirements then find another job!

[la gran siete]

Originally Posted by sidicks

I'm not sure anyone is suggesting it was a template for others to follow..


Of course, but is anyone claiming that abuses are taking place?


You need to accept the requirements and expectations of a job - if you aren't prepared to comply with those requirements then find another job!

as I said the EWTD is what it is and should be adhered to ,any abuses should be punished .There are exceptions of course such as emergency services , but the directive is clear - no more than 48 hours pw ,unless its voluntary .
Of course abuses do take place ,I know of one non unionised well known national sportswear retail company which regularly harasses its low level staff to work way beyond reasonable hours for a pittance , no overtime nothing .This is abuse and should be reported but unfortunately no one has the gumption to do so , which is why i believe union membership should be widely encouraged.Of course the bosses are sitting pretty raking in millions of the back of what is little more than wage slavery

[karkus30]

Originally Posted by la gran siete

as I said the EWTD is what it is and should be adhered to ,any abuses should be punished .There are exceptions of course such as emergency services , but the directive is clear - no more than 48 hours pw ,unless its voluntary .
Of course abuses do take place ,I know of one non unionised well known national sportswear retail company which regularly harasses its low level staff to work way beyond reasonable hours for a pittance , no overtime nothing .This is abuse and should be reported but unfortunately no one has the gumption to do so , which is why i believe union membership should be widely encouraged.Of course the bosses are sitting pretty raking in millions of the back of what is little more than wage slavery

All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. If that is true about this sportswear company they need hauling in. It's not down to law, but down to the workers contracts of employment. In that scenario they should rigidly enforce it. However some jobs ( most of mine ) had the caveat......extra hours outside the normal working day and expected to do so. That often meant weekends, evenings and a long working day stretching from 5am through to 10/11pm. I ran my job as my business and collected the bonus for doing it well. That was my choice, I could have been lazy and took the pay, but it's not in my nature to be anything but conscientious.

Sometimes I look at the slavery that you mention and can see that it's an opportunity if handled correctly. Sometimes employers are forced into taking uninterested staff on low pay and have a tendency to lump them all together. There can be opportunities to move upwards for the smart ones that are prepared to work hard, but are also prepared to ask.....if I do that for you, what's the chance of getting a job as supervisor ? I'm not saying that is the case with the situation you describe. If it was me in that position with no opportunity I would tell them to stuff it.

[IronGiant]

Originally Posted by la gran siete

What its does show is your innate capacity to interpret things as you see fit, not reality

Posts laden with self deprecating irony like that, make these threads worthwhile reading

[BISHI]

Originally Posted by sidicks

1) certainly the vast majority of employees in investment banks and asset management companies will have waived their rights to the EWTD.

2) very commendable, I'm sure that in some parts of the public sector NHS) this is much more common than others??

However in investment banking not only is there no overtime, but you wouldn't bother keeping count of your extra hours as you would never have any expectstion of getting them back!!

A bit like that in teaching mate ...! Still doesn't stop most people accusing them of being lazy

[BISHI]

Originally Posted by MikeTV

In terms of tax revenue, immigrants pay a proportionately higher rate of tax than the uk population due to their higher than average earnings. There are strict rules governing migrants eligibility to claim welfare, and only a very small proportion end up in council housing. And many areas of the public sector wouldn't function without immigrants. Almost half of all nurses, and a third of doctors are migrant workers, and the education sector benefits as well.

So in other words, their economic contribution outweighs the social burden.

I think we were really talking about those lower down the economic scale, much lower down..

[kav]

I don't really understand why this thread has split along public/private sector lines. There are lazy bastards in most walks of life, some are just better at hiding it than others.

[BISHI]

Originally Posted by sidicks

On what basis do you make that comment - how is productivity calculated...

Whose fault is that?

Wait, let me guess, it's Thatcher's fault, right??

You've made the mistake AGAIN of painting me with a blue brush . I am neither right or left on my politics, I prefer to consider the humane and moral side of an argument and not simply go with the numbers.

[travid]

Originally Posted by kav

I don't really understand why this thread has split along public/private sector lines. There are lazy bastards in most walks of life, some are just better at hiding it than others.

Too true !

[the-demi-god]

Originally Posted by MikeTV

In terms of tax revenue, immigrants pay a proportionately higher rate of tax than the uk population due to their higher than average earnings. There are strict rules governing migrants eligibility to claim welfare, and only a very small proportion end up in council housing. And many areas of the public sector wouldn't function without immigrants. Almost half of all nurses, and a third of doctors are migrant workers, and the education sector benefits as well.

So in other words, their economic contribution outweighs the social burden.

Which is why there are no jobs for indiginous nurses and teachers 85-90% of those graduating in both professions are unemployed I know hons grads nurses working in Starbucks teachers who have been told not to tell prospective (non-education) employers that they have a degree at all and one Doctor I heard of who was told maybe she should do some VOS as a doctor "maybe there will be jobs when you get back" It is not the immigrants as people that folk resent but to anyone unemployed they represent even less chance to get a job and think on this the NHS have been contracting for 5 years with the only new nursing jobs being in London, but, and I know it is unpopular to say this the existing staff are still compensating for some of the immigrant nurses, their workload is heavier because of it and there is a sizable % of patients who do not like being treated by someone whom they do not understand.
Relatives complain that they either have no idea what is being asked or that the information they are given does not make sense, and no one wants to listen.
Isn't this the problem generally in Britain just now no one wants to hear the truth we all want it to go back to the way it was well it aint going to happen but I think a little fairness would go a long way to encouraging people to try.

[la gran siete]

Originally Posted by IronGiant

Posts laden with self deprecating irony like that, make these threads worthwhile reading

well at least i acknowledge it, instead of pretending ,as one or two do, to be in possession of the "hard facts"

[IronGiant]

Originally Posted by la gran siete

well at least i acknowledge it,

You have now

[dejongj]

Originally Posted by the-demi-god

Which is why there are no jobs for indiginous nurses and teachers 85-90% of those graduating in both professions are unemployed I know hons grads nurses working in Starbucks teachers who have been told not to tell prospective (non-education) employers that they have a degree at all and one Doctor I heard of who was told maybe she should do some VOS as a doctor "maybe there will be jobs when you get back" It is not the immigrants as people that folk resent but to anyone unemployed they represent even less chance to get a job and think on this the NHS have been contracting for 5 years with the only new nursing jobs being in London, but, and I know it is unpopular to say this the existing staff are still compensating for some of the immigrant nurses, their workload is heavier because of it and there is a sizable % of patients who do not like being treated by someone whom they do not understand.
Relatives complain that they either have no idea what is being asked or that the information they are given does not make sense, and no one wants to listen.
Isn't this the problem generally in Britain just now no one wants to hear the truth we all want it to go back to the way it was well it aint going to happen but I think a little fairness would go a long way to encouraging people to try.

I would call bs on that as the reason. Attitude, aptitude and mobility will have much more to do with not getting a job over immigrants.

Then again I am an economic migrant myself so can see it directly and experienced it first hand. And are involved in a lot of recruitment exercises and can compare from that angle. Both private and public sector.

I know it is a generalisation, but the lying on cv and over egging previous jobs is a real life British treat and keeps on ******* me off whilst wasting my time.

There is always a job regardless of nationality for people who are willing to put a hard days work in, and demonstrate before they expect the renumeration how good they are and how much money they can make their employer. As ultimately there need to be value added by employing someone.

[la gran siete]

Originally Posted by IronGiant

You have now

I pretty much did so before actually.I always tend to think we see things subjectively

[BISHI]

Originally Posted by dejongj

I would call bs on that as the reason. Attitude, aptitude and mobility will have much more to do with not getting a job over immigrants.

Then again I am an economic migrant myself so can see it directly and experienced it first hand. And are involved in a lot of recruitment exercises and can compare from that angle. Both private and public sector.

I know it is a generalisation, but the lying on cv and over egging previous jobs is a real life British treat and keeps on ******* me off whilst wasting my time.

There is always a job regardless of nationality for people who are willing to put a hard days work in, and demonstrate before they expect the renumeration how good they are and how much money they can make their employer. As ultimately there need to be value added by employing someone.

Out of interest, an economic migrant from where..?

[dejongj]

Dutch nationality but I have lived in many many many countries around the world. Before I came to the UK I lived in Utrecht but was working in Brussels mainly.

[BISHI]

Hardly an economic migrant then..? I have family in Amsterdam and know plenty of British people living there. Holland is an easy place for Brits to live as almost everyone speaks English ... And vice versa.

[MikeTV]

Originally Posted by the-demi-god

Isn't this the problem generally in Britain just now no one wants to hear the truth.

We actually have quite low unemployment in Britain at the moment. And that's the truth.

Your statistic about 85%-90% of graduate nurses/teachers being unemployed, well, that's not the truth.

What is true, sadly, is that nowadays degrees are given away with cornflakes. And so some people are going to be disappointed when they fail to get into their chosen professions. Specific sectors can only absorb so many people each year. And so some graduates are going to have to choose other career paths, and possibly retrain.

[sidicks]

Originally Posted by MikeTV

We have actually have quite low unemployment in Britain at the moment. And that's the truth.

Your statistic about 85%-90% of graduate nurses/teachers being unemployed, well, that's not the truth.

What is true, sadly, is that nowadays degrees are given away with cornflakes. And so some people are going to be disappointed when they fail to get into their chosen professions. Specific sectors can only absorb so many people each year. And so some graduates are going to have to choose other career paths, and possibly retrain.

That's twice I've agreed with you today Mike - I cant cope with this, so I'm off for a lie down...

[dejongj]

Originally Posted by BISHI

Hardly an economic migrant then..? I have family in Amsterdam and know plenty of British people living there. Holland is an easy place for Brits to live as almost everyone speaks English ... And vice versa.

Why not? I migrated and did it for the money? I get paid a lot more here than ever in the Netherlands or Belgium or Portugal or Germany or ... Just to name a few. US was probably better but I made a decision that cost me my sponsor for a permit to work there, which was not clever of me in hindsight.. Funnily enough our services are requested regularly but the fees just aren't high enough. Direct taxes are also less although these days it is not that clear cut anymore due too all other "taxes" in the UK.

Also the "competition" is easy in the UK, IMO very much so inline with the headline of this thread as per the op. That just leaves so much business to pickup that really should be filled locally, but hey I am not complaining.

[MikeTV]

Originally Posted by dejongj

Why not? I migrated and did it for the money?

Yeah, but Holland is a delightful place. So you must be a masochistic migrant.

[dejongj]

Originally Posted by MikeTV

Yeah, but Holland is a delightful place. So you must be a masochistic migrant.

Lol hmmm don't think you've actually lived there or have different standards/needs/expectations than me. The grass is not greener anywhere, whilst a lot of good points I also found it small/narrow minded living there. Not at all a tolerant place in many aspects. But it is in different aspects to the UK. Definitely didn't like my 60% tax bracket nor the tax (again) on assets accumulated over the years.

[MikeTV]

Originally Posted by dejongj

Lol hmmm don't think you've actually lived there or have different standards/needs/expectations than me.

True, and true again!

Although, I don't think people who relocate to lower tax regimes are necessarily what people have in mind when they say "economic migrant".

[dejongj]

Originally Posted by MikeTV

True, and true again!

Although, I don't think people who relocate to lower tax regimes are necessarily what people have in mind when they say "economic migrant".

I wonder that if one is looking to improve their income, by increasing their pay, lowering their tax liability, thus improving their overall economic situation by moving to another country and for not other reason than their economic prospects can't be called an economic migrant what one has to do to be one?

[BISHI]

In my book an economic migrant is one moving from a third world to a first world economy for the prospect of employment. Movement within the EU doesn't really count in my book .

[BISHI]

Except if you are from east of Germany ..!

[MikeTV]

Originally Posted by BISHI

Except if you are from east of Germany ..!

So your spanish cleaner, what is she?