[karkus30]

Originally Posted by kav

Come on, if you can't see that they are all playing a game of "cover your arse" then you're even more blinkered than I thought possible.

Exactly. Want to take a guess as to the reasons ? I think it's a question of faith. Just like those ancient civilisations that worshipped the rain God until one day the rain stopped falling and then everyone was to blame, drinking too much water, not watching the water supplies, not praying hard enough, abandoning the old for the new. In just results in everyone blaming everyone else when their faith is shattered. We can't do without the banking system we just put too much reliance on it. I reckon some bankers now see the writing on the wall which is why there are increasing numbers leaving. Banking has lost its golden ticket, the institutions and organisations are just trying to find a way to convince everybody that it's business as usual and the way to do that is to find a patsy to blame it on. Trouble is everybody played a part so there is no one person or thing.

[MikeTV]

Originally Posted by kav

Come on, if you can't see that they are all playing a game of "cover your arse"

Well yes, quite possibly. But Diamond did let the BofE off the hook - not sure why, if they are guilty. That was an obvious "get out of jail card". That's more the point I was highlighting.

And without the BofE implicated, it's harder then to accuse labour, because they weren't talking to Diamond directly. So I think it's more likely labour had no idea what was going on - in many ways.

[karkus30]

Originally Posted by MikeTV

Well yes, quite possibly. But Diamond did let the BofE off the hook - not sure why, if they are guilty. That was an obvious "get out of jail card". That's more the point I was highlighting.

And without the BofE implicated, it's harder then to accuse labour, because they weren't talking to Diamond directly. So I think it's more likely labour had no idea what was going on - in many ways.

You don't get QE then ? It's a scam. The BoE are the last resort bank, they now effectively hold all the toxic assets. They are all trying to pull off the scam of the century but no one can say a word or the cats put of the bag. You said it yourself, the banks would have gone bust if it wasn't for tax payers money. I wasn't kidding when I said that you will have to jail everyone connected to banking including Government, BoE and all the bankers.

If they didn't get rid of the Toxic assets by printing more money and tax payers money then they would no longer be able to carry on any business, the banks reserves would be in negative equity and they could not then meet regulations for fractional reserves. The banks were bust, they still are, they just hid the problem. If assets don't rise they are going to be in a very precarious situation. Ridding the banks of toxic debt made them look cash rich which is why they were happily paying bonuses, but there was no sudden increase in loans and that's why Cameron was demanding it. Because if they don't loan then someone might investigate.

The Government, the heads of the banks and the BoE all know the score, so does the Fed. They are all walking a tight rope. I'm suspicious of a couple of recent developments which might be connected, but they might mark me out as a tin foil wearing conspiracy theorist.

It's over and done now bar the screaming and crying that will surely come. The good thing is in reality nothing has changed. We can still dig stuff out of the ground, grow things in fields, people still need things, so nothing has disappeared, we just need to stop them doing it again. I'm passed what's happened, the Government are passed what's happened that's why they don't want any more long enquiries.

[MikeTV]

Originally Posted by karkus30

You don't get QE then ? It's a scam.

Quite possibly. But I was responding to a point about libor rate fixing, not QE.

[karkus30]

Originally Posted by MikeTV

Quite possibly. But I was responding to a point about libor rate fixing, not QE.

I think it does the same thing Mike but I could be wrong. QE increases bond prices and lowers yields. Fixing Libor rates lower interest rates which increases those asset prices. Balance sheets then look a lot better and keep the interest rates low. High interest rates would kill the asset prices they hold and then the brown stuff would hit the fan. The Government, banks and BoE are "all in it together". It's a bit too much in the detail for me because I don't understand the workings. I do know that the banking system remains in a precarious situation ( probably not helped by regulations which have tied its hands in many directions to prevent any fiddling to get free ). Those toxic assets are supposed to ring fenced until such time as the banks are back in a stable state, to get them in a stable state requires trickery which attempts to swap public debt for bank debt.

[sidicks]

Originally Posted by karkus30

I think it does the same thing Mike but I could be wrong. QE increases bond prices and lowers yields.

Agreed

Originally Posted by karkus30

Fixing Libor rates lower interest rates which increases those asset prices.

In the first case of Libor fixing, traders were allegedly manipulating their quotes (which may or may not have affected the prevailing Libor rate at that time). IF libor was affected it could have been slightly higher or lower than it should have been.

Whether this would have been poisitive or negative for assets would depend on whether they are fixed or floating rate assets.

In the second case of Libor fixing (Barclays underquoting their inter-bank borrowing rates) it is unlikely that this affected the ultimate Libor rate as it was consistently shown that Barclays was one of the highest quotes that went into the calculation, and the calculation methodology would thus exclude this aapparent outlier.

IF Libor had been understated, then fixed rate assets would become more valuable and floating rate assets would be less valuable.

For banks, the MBS assets that have been a big part of the credit crisis are typically floating rate notes and hence this approach woudl make them less valuable. conversely, banks often issue floating rate debt which would make their repayments cheaper.

Originally Posted by karkus30

Balance sheets then look a lot better and keep the interest rates low.

High interest rates would kill the asset prices they hold and then the brown stuff would hit the fan. The Government, banks and BoE are "all in it together". It's a bit too much in the detail for me because I don't understand the workings.

I think it's fair to say that your assumption is far too simplistic, given all the moving parts referred to above.

Originally Posted by karkus30

I do know that the banking system remains in a precarious situation ( probably not helped by regulations which have tied its hands in many directions to prevent any fiddling to get free ). Those toxic assets are supposed to ring fenced until such time as the banks are back in a stable state, to get them in a stable state requires trickery which attempts to swap public debt for bank debt.

As per one of the other threads, the 'toxic' assets have turend out to be much less toxic than feared (as many of us predicted)!

[MikeTV]

Originally Posted by karkus30

I think it does the same thing Mike but I could be wrong. QE increases bond prices and lowers yields. Fixing Libor rates lower interest rates which increases those asset prices. Balance sheets then look a lot better and keep the interest rates low. High interest rates would kill the asset prices they hold and then the brown stuff would hit the fan. The Government, banks and BoE are "all in it together". It's a bit too much in the detail for me because I don't understand the workings. I do know that the banking system remains in a precarious situation ( probably not helped by regulations which have tied its hands in many directions to prevent any fiddling to get free ). Those toxic assets are supposed to ring fenced until such time as the banks are back in a stable state, to get them in a stable state requires trickery which attempts to swap public debt for bank debt.

It all makes the banks richer, if that's what you mean by "I think it does the same thing Mike". I'm not disputing that. But I think you are going off on a tangent. We were talking about the criminality of the banks in relation to libor fixing, and the possibility of government/regulator involvement. I don't think QE has anything to do with that.

On your point about regulations not helping bank stability - I disagree. It's deregulation which has caused the bank's precarious state, not regulation.

[karkus30]

Originally Posted by MikeTV

It all makes the banks richer, if that's what you mean by "I think it does the same thing Mike". I'm not disputing that. But I think you are going off on a tangent. We were talking about the criminality of the banks in relation to libor fixing, and the possibility of government/regulator involvement. I don't think QE has anything to do with that.

On your point about regulations not helping bank stability - I disagree. It's deregulation which has caused the bank's precarious state, not regulation.

No, I think it makes them extremely stable but that's probably hampering their recovery.

[MikeTV]

Originally Posted by karkus30

No, I think it makes them extremely stable but that's probably hampering their recovery.

Deregulation made them unstable in the run-up to the crisis. Intervention made them stable-ish during/post-crisis. But more regulation/intervention is needed to make them stable in the long-term.

[MikeTV]

Originally Posted by karkus30

that's probably hampering their recovery.

It's not hampering their recovery, it's keeping them from insolvency.

[sharger]

El bandito..... Arriba arriba

Barclays facing new crisis with inquiry into fees - Telegraph

I saw a fable on another website that fits perfectly... Here it is courtesy of wiki:

The Scorpion and the Frog is a fable about a scorpion asking a frog to carry him across a river. The frog is afraid of being stung during the trip, but the scorpion argues that if it stung the frog, the frog would sink and the scorpion would drown. The frog agrees and begins carrying the scorpion, but midway across the river the scorpion does indeed sting the frog, dooming them both. When asked why, the scorpion points out that this is its nature. The fable is used to illustrate the position that the behaviour of some creatures is irrepressible, no matter how they are treated and no matter what the consequences.

.

[MikeTV]

Well, the report of the parliamentary select committee has been published. Predictably, it adds very little to what we already know. But we didn't really expect it to, did we? Nevertheless, it does knock Mervyn King and the BoE around a bit. Anyway, here is the link:

http://www.parliament.uk/documents/c...%20VOL%20I.pdf

[sharger]

Bob Diamond damned by Parliament - Telegraph

Extract:


In words that are likely to make it difficult for Mr Diamond to hold a senior position in the UK again, the Treasury Select Committee said his evidence “lacked candour”, was “unforthcoming”, and “fell well short of the standard that Parliament expects”.

[MikeTV]

Originally Posted by sharger

Treasury Select Committee said his evidence “lacked candour”, was “unforthcoming”, and “fell well short of the standard that Parliament expects”.

I think we all knew that would be the case, before he testified.

We are still no further ahead in understanding who at Barclays knew about libor fixing and whether the executives were complicit, or just severely incompetent, or both.

Seems to me to have been a completely pointless enquiry. We still need a full and independent judge-led public enquiry into the failure of the libor/eurobor system, and criminal prosecutions for any wrongdoing.

A spell at her majesty's pleasure would certainly prevent Diamond from ever holding a senior executive position at a major UK bank, and might help to restore a shred of confidence in the the UK's despicable banking system and regulatory processes.

[the-demi-god]

Originally Posted by MikeTV

I think we all knew that would be the case, before he testified.

We are still no further ahead in understanding who at Barclays knew about libor fixing and whether the executives were complicit, or just severely incompetent, or both.

Seems to me to have been a completely pointless enquiry. We still need a full and independent judge-led public enquiry into the failure of the libor/eurobor system, and criminal prosecutions for any wrongdoing.

A spell at her majesty's pleasure would certainly prevent Diamond from ever holding a senior executive position at a major UK bank, and might help to restore a shred of confidence in the the UK's despicable banking system and regulatory processes.

I agree the trouble is that the banks are now considered unreliable by everyone and have been since the crash. People knew that what they were seeing was just the tip of the iceberg it's one of the reasons why there is so much anger about the bonuses. A lot of what has happened is the fall out from the original collapse, but I cannot be the only one asking if we could have prevented some of the prolonged fiasco if we had hammered those responsible at the start.
The USA don't always get it right but they prosecuted the worst of their offenders European politicians were too busy covering their own rear ends
If they want to restore confidence in banks they need to do a whole lot more than what they have done.

[kav]

Barclays.com - Antony Jenkins appointed as Group Chief Executive

[MikeTV]

Originally Posted by kav

Barclays.com - Antony Jenkins appointed as Group Chief Executive

Let's all hope he lives up to his promises:

"But we have made serious mistakes in recent years and clearly failed to keep pace with our stakeholders' expectations. We have an obligation to all of those stakeholders – customers, clients, shareholders, colleagues and broader society – and a unique opportunity to restore Barclays reputation by making it the "go to" bank in all of our chosen markets."

I seem to remember hearing speeches by Bob Diamond about good citizenship, once upon a time.

[the-demi-god]

Originally Posted by MikeTV

Let's all hope he lives up to his promises:
I seem to remember hearing speeches by Bob Diamond about good citizenship, once upon a time.

Well at least he cannot make it any worse than it already is........
Or can he??
The real question is what on earth can he do to improve the situation, because I rather suspect that the answer to that is, not as much as people would like him to. He could start off by separating the investment bank from the rest of the company, not altogether sure how effective that would be but at least it would show he was willing to change.

[sharger]

So who is going to pay for this if it becomes a reality as the bank is 82% owned by the tax payer?


RBS could be fined £300m to settle Libor probe - Telegraph



.

[MikeTV]

Originally Posted by sharger

So who is going to pay for this if it becomes a reality as the bank is 82% owned by the tax payer?


RBS could be fined £300m to settle Libor probe - Telegraph



.

Well, £246m will be paid by the taxpayer (82%), effectively. Although, it will also affect their taxable profits directly, so let's call it a round £300m. And then there is the cost to any profits arising from all that negative market sentiment, and then the threats of further litigation, compensation...well, you get the picture.

[MikeTV]

"Bankers who fail to adhere to the standards set should be struck off in the same way as failing doctors, potentially barring them from working in banking again. Such a tough stance would, according to Barclays' submission, bring "certainty and confidence to customers that they are being served by qualified and trustworthy professionals who are bound by a code of conduct".

Barclays fights to rebuild reputation with call to strike off rogue bankers - Business News - Business - The Independent

[sidicks]

Originally Posted by MikeTV

"Bankers who fail to adhere to the standards set should be struck off in the same way as failing doctors, potentially barring them from working in banking again. Such a tough stance would, according to Barclays' submission, bring "certainty and confidence to customers that they are being served by qualified and trustworthy professionals who are bound by a code of conduct".

Seems a good start......

[karkus30]

Originally Posted by MikeTV

"Bankers who fail to adhere to the standards set should be struck off in the same way as failing doctors, potentially barring them from working in banking again. Such a tough stance would, according to Barclays' submission, bring "certainty and confidence to customers that they are being served by qualified and trustworthy professionals who are bound by a code of conduct".

Barclays fights to rebuild reputation with call to strike off rogue bankers - Business News - Business - The Independent

Potentially ? If you commit fraud it's time for a court and a judge and a conviction should lead to a criminal record that would exclude them from working in any financial sector. They are bound by a code of conduct, it's called the law.

[MikeTV]

Originally Posted by karkus30

Potentially ? If you commit fraud it's time for a court and a judge and a conviction should lead to a criminal record that would exclude them from working in any financial sector. They are bound by a code of conduct, it's called the law.

But instead they walk off with a £9 million pay-off, and slip quietly into the shadows (a shadow under a palm tree, no doubt):

"Last night it emerged that Jerry del Missier, the former Barclays Bank executive at the centre of the interest-rate rigging scandal that cost the lender £290m, has walked away from the company with a pay-off of almost £9m." - Barclays told to stop fundraising for Mitt Romney - Telegraph

So much for Barclay's big words. Meanwhile, in other news:

"Executives at Barclays have reportedly donated more than $1m (£645,000) to US Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney's election campaign."

Well, of course they did! Maybe Mitt will make Jerry del Missier head of Federal Reserve?

[johntheexpat]

No, its not endemic, this is just another (yet another?) bad apple in the barrel. They are few and far between, we've been told that repeatedly.

Lloyds anti-fraud boss who stole £2.4m told police she deserved cash for long hours - Telegraph

So the head of fraud is a crook. I wonder why she took that route? Absolutely nothing to do with the amount of fraud she came across and wasn't allowed to touch, because it was her seniors. No, no, that's just idle speculation as to why the head of fraud became a fraudster.

[sidicks]

Originally Posted by johntheexpat

No, its not endemic, this is just another (yet another?) bad apple in the barrel. They are few and far between, we've been told that repeatedly.

Lloyds anti-fraud boss who stole £2.4m told police she deserved cash for long hours - Telegraph

So the head of fraud is a crook. I wonder why she took that route? Absolutely nothing to do with the amount of fraud she came across and wasn't allowed to touch, because it was her seniors. No, no, that's just idle speculation as to why the head of fraud became a fraudster.

Maybe ALLthe police are corrupt, and racist...
BBC News - Sir Norman Bettison backed by West Yorkshire Police Authority

BBC News - G20 death: PC Simon Harwood sacked for gross misconduct

Maybe ALL nurses neglect their patients and aren't fit to work...

BBC News - Patient neglect nurse Linda McDonald struck off register

BBC News - Nurse struck off for sexual relationship with patient

Maybe ALL teachers are sexual predators...

BBC News - Ex-teacher Bernard Haunch to face sex abuse retrial

BBC News - Public school teacher Bruce Roth jailed for sexual abuse

etc etc

Or maybe a bit of common sense dictates that the high profile cases make the news and the vast majority of people work hard doing their jobs honestly and with integrity?

[johntheexpat]

Originally Posted by sidicks

Maybe ALL teachers are sexual predators...

Awwww. You missed out my Physics teacher from school who is also on the run from the police for that kind of thing (apparently) and is (apparently) being protected by the catholic church somewhere in the Vatican.

[sharger]

RBS traders boasted of Libor 'cartel' - Telegraph


Yet more spivs committing fraud


.

[sharger]

The Co Operative Bank leading the way in putting the customer first over bonuses.....

Co-op Bank abolishes branch sales bonuses


.

[CAS FAN]

Originally Posted by sharger

The Co Operative Bank leading the way in putting the customer first over bonuses.....

Co-op Bank abolishes branch sales bonuses

.

I've got a mate who works as a financial adviser for them and apparently (although things have changed now) the advisers there used to earn an obscene amount of money (6 figures easy). By all accounts a lot of the old advisers have now left as they can't earn the £150k they were earning previously.

In the bank I used to work for it was extremely hard to earn bonus and you were lucky if you earned more than £30k per annum.