[gazbarber]

There seems to be something in the air at the moment

Teachers don't want to be inspected:
'You're not welcome': teachers vote to ban Ofsted - Education News - Education - The Independent

Teachers don't want universities to have a say in A-Level exams:
BBC News - University A-level plan challenged

Teachers don't want to teach phonics:
BBC News - Phonics test: NUT may ballot on boycott

Teachers don't want English Bacaloriate (i.e. teach 'hard' subjects), no link as this has been done to death on this very sub forum.

Are teachers being pushed in the wrong direction (phonics?), or is the thought of increased (or 'real') accountability causing anxiety or maybe there's a worry that a movement to harder exams and more difficult subjects is threatening some teachers professions.

For the record I think I agree with teachers on phonics, don't understand the view that A-Levels shouldn't have input from universities as this is really their only modern purpose, and its's gawling to say we don't think we should be inspected (or as I read it, let us continue to have a large number of school leavers that can't read or write, aren't numerate and have in general been failed by the education system).

Also the thread is obvious looking at teachers, but the education system itself has numerous failing (exam boards bidding for the easiest exams ...) and no doubt many teachers are trying to work within or around this to teach their pupils the best they can.

[Cloverleaf]

Originally Posted by gazbarber

There seems to be something in the air at the moment

Teachers don't want to be inspected:
'You're not welcome': teachers vote to ban Ofsted - Education News - Education - The Independent

Teachers don't want universities to have a say in A-Level exams:
BBC News - University A-level plan challenged

Teachers don't want to teach phonics:
BBC News - Phonics test: NUT may ballot on boycott

Teachers don't want English Bacaloriate (i.e. teach 'hard' subjects), no link as this has been done to death on this very sub forum.

Are teachers being pushed in the wrong direction (phonics?), or is the thought of increased (or 'real') accountability causing anxiety or maybe there's a worry that a movement to harder exams and more difficult subjects is threatening some teachers professions.

For the record I think I agree with teachers on phonics, don't understand the view that A-Levels shouldn't have input from universities as this is really their only modern purpose, and its's gawling to say we don't think we should be inspected (or as I read it, let us continue to have a large number of school leavers that can't read or write, are numerate and have in general been failed by the education system).

Also the thread is obvious looking at teachers, but the education system itself has numerous failing (exam boards bidding for the easiest exams ...) and no doubt many teachers are trying to work within or around this to teach their pupils the best they can.

The teachers are no different from the Police at the moment; a group of Public Sector workers with no idea of economic realities, and no concept of how poorly they are perceived due to their performance.

All they want to do is set their own objectives, without the inconvenience of anyone actually daring to assess their effectiveness.

They also want to set their own pay, terms ,conditions and pensions, and expect the taxpayer to pick up the bill regardless.

I'm sure we would all like a job like that.

They are however going to come a cropper if they pursue industrial action; whatever dregs of status and respect they may still command will quickly evaporate.

Time to join the real world.

[dovercat]

One of the most stupid things was the teachers going on about a "bully's charter"
That in the classroom their teaching would be subject to more supervision, monitoring, inspection. That if they were assessed as performing badly it would be easier for them to be dismissed.

Do they not realize how poorly that plays to the public, many of whom will have experience poor teachers during their own education. If the proposed assessment and dismissal systems are faulty then they should be making key points identifying those faults.

[Cloverleaf]

Originally Posted by dovercat

One of the most stupid things was the teachers going on about a "bully's charter"
That in the classroom their teaching would be subject to more supervision, monitoring, inspection. That if they were assessed as performing badly it would be easier for them to be dismissed.

Do they not realize how poorly that plays to the public, many of whom will have experience poor teachers during their own education. If the proposed assessment and dismissal systems are faulty then they should be making key points identifying those faults.

Unfortunately, they don't. They seem to think they are entitled to a job for life, no matter how poorly they perform.

[sidicks]

Originally Posted by dovercat

One of the most stupid things was the teachers going on about a "bully's charter"
That in the classroom their teaching would be subject to more supervision, monitoring, inspection. That if they were assessed as performing badly it would be easier for them to be dismissed.

Do they not realize how poorly that plays to the public, many of whom will have experience poor teachers during their own education. If the proposed assessment and dismissal systems are faulty then they should be making key points identifying those faults.

I do not solely blame the teachers for the decline in standards over the last 10 years or so - much of which has been government-driven with a focus on improved exam results rather than improved education.


However, striking on account of a small increase in pension costs is unlikely to find sympathy with the general population and demonstrates a worrying ignorance as to the value of the pension they receive.


Worse, rather than actively participate in (and therefor help shape the direction of) the education review, threatening to strike is the act of a bully and should not be tolerated.

Sidicks

[Rasczak]

I am no fan of this Government, but I hope Gove holds his nerve and takes the teachers on. Gazbarber has touched on the key issues - there seems to be a refusal by teachers to acknowledge that the current system is letting our children down and, if that weren't bad enough, a militant attitude to any change whatsoever.

As the OP notes, the EBacc discussion has been done to death on this forum. But the opposition to it despite the obvious benefits, is symbolic of the problem.

As an aside the 'cut out Gove' is shocking - and the people applauding this are the samepeople teaching our children!!!

[dovercat]

Originally Posted by sidicks

I do not solely blame the teachers for the decline in standards over the last 10 years or so - much of which has been government-driven with a focus on improved exam results rather than improved education.

Yes there is the feeling that the exam results and even degrees are not the measures of ability they used to be. That many of the qualifications have been devalued.

[gazbarber]

Originally Posted by dovercat

Yes there is the feeling that the exam results and even degrees are not the measures of ability they used to be. That many of the qualifications have been devalued.

This is something that must be put a stop to, one thing we have internationally is the quality of our education, if we loose this or have perceived to loose this the UK will loose business and become less competitive. A beginning to a long term decline, one that I think will be far worse than any recession.

Education is the foundation of our/the modern world, I see it currently failing on multiple fronts. Everything the government is proposing I don't agree with, but on balance I think they are going in the right direction.

Exams should be hard and there should be a differentiation of ability between A, B and C grades.
Kids should be taught subjects (well!) as A)Foundation knowledge (EB goes far for this) B) Useful for long term career prospects (be this vocational/academic).

I think A is falling fairly badly (for any able minded person to leave school unable to read/write and/or be numerate is unacceptable).
For B might be working out for some but many kids have been pushed onto courses that make a school look good in league tables and not what suits the kids best interest. We should be doing more plumbing and electrics style courses, and less hair/nail beauty which far too many kids seem to be doing.

With the move for kids to be taught to 18 now Education until 18 I think the education system needs to be really bucking up its real world achievements.

[kav]

I saw a teacher being interviewed on the news a couple of days ago - she was angry that people viewed her pension as gold-plated because it wasn't a fortune, it was "only £10,000 a year". She displayed no understanding of what makes pensions "gold-plated" - ie it's nothing to do with the amount received at the end, but rather the enormous contribution the taxpayer has to make relative to her individual personal contribution. Perhaps a dose of reality is needed by demonstrating to teachers the amount they would need to contribute to a personal pension scheme to get a £10k/annum pension after whatever number of years of service they do.

[sidicks]

Originally Posted by kav

I saw a teacher being interviewed on the news a couple of days ago - she was angry that people viewed her pension as gold-plated because it wasn't a fortune, it was "only £10,000 a year". She displayed no understanding of what makes pensions "gold-plated" - ie it's nothing to do with the amount received at the end, but rather the enormous contribution the taxpayer has to make relative to her individual personal contribution. Perhaps a dose of reality is needed by demonstrating to teachers the amount they would need to contribute to a personal pension scheme to get a £10k/annum pension after whatever number of years of service they do.

Supposedly intelligent people, with the future of our children in their hands.

It doesn't bode well!

Sidicks

[Rasczak]

Originally Posted by kav

I saw a teacher being interviewed on the news a couple of days ago - she was angry that people viewed her pension as gold-plated because it wasn't a fortune, it was "only £10,000 a year". She displayed no understanding of what makes pensions "gold-plated" - ie it's nothing to do with the amount received at the end, but rather the enormous contribution the taxpayer has to make relative to her individual personal contribution. Perhaps a dose of reality is needed by demonstrating to teachers the amount they would need to contribute to a personal pension scheme to get a £10k/annum pension after whatever number of years of service they do.

Although, to be entirely fair, if one was to add that equivalent personal contribution to the salary most teachers get paid, then it is unlikely to be a sum many of us would work for.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by sidicks

Supposedly intelligent people, with the future of our children in their hands.

It doesn't bode well!

Sidicks

Yes we should get rid of them all along with any other public sector parasite that dares to have the temerity to try and protect the pay and conditions they have. After all who shouldn't be happy to pay more, work longer and get less.

Really sidicks putting politics aside childish jibes questioning teachers intelligence does nothing to help the debate.

[la gran siete]

Originally Posted by sidicks

Supposedly intelligent people, with the future of our children in their hands.

It doesn't bode well!

Sidicks

In a profession that has always been underewarded and underappreciated, it seems to me perfectly reasonable that they should attempt to protect their meagre pension rights.10k pa is very little for someone who has dedicated his or her life for the betterment of others

[Philly112]

Originally Posted by kav

I saw a teacher being interviewed on the news a couple of days ago - she was angry that people viewed her pension as gold-plated because it wasn't a fortune, it was "only £10,000 a year". She displayed no understanding of what makes pensions "gold-plated" - ie it's nothing to do with the amount received at the end, but rather the enormous contribution the taxpayer has to make relative to her individual personal contribution. Perhaps a dose of reality is needed by demonstrating to teachers the amount they would need to contribute to a personal pension scheme to get a £10k/annum pension after whatever number of years of service they do.

Actually, it was worse than that. She was talking about the 'average' teachers pension. As usual with teachers and NHS staff, they put out the average number. It is completely meaningless as it includes people with a couple of years service.
Discussions of final salary pensions are only meaningful when one knows the final salary, and how many years service were accrued. £10k after 40 years service would be poor. After 1 year, it would be extraordinary. The truth will be somewhere in the middle.

Phil

[sidicks]

Originally Posted by Dave

Yes we should get rid of them all along with any other public sector parasite that dares to have the temerity to try and protect the pay and conditions they have. After all who shouldn't be happy to pay more, work longer and get less.

The requirement to 'pay more, work longer and get less' is affecting everyone in the country and is simply a result of increasing longevity - why should public sector workers be immune to the economic realities??

Rather than continue to spout the highly misleading 'contribution surplus' ******** that is usually used by the Unions to try and justify these pensions, teachers would be better off actively participating in the government review to shape the direction of any changes to improve the education system.

Originally Posted by Dave

Really sidicks putting politics aside childish jibes questioning teachers intelligence does nothing to help the debate.

The misrepresentation of the position can only be to deliberately mislead the public or because the Teachers genuinely don't understand the situation.

I was giving them credit for not deliberately misleading people...

Sidicks

[sidicks]

Originally Posted by la gran siete

In a profession that has always been underewarded and underappreciated, it seems to me perfectly reasonable that they should attempt to protect their meagre pension rights.

Meagre?!


You really don't have any credibility whatsoever when you make stupid statements like that!

Originally Posted by la gran siete

10k pa is very little for someone who has dedicated his or her life for the betterment of others

Indeed, £10k p.a. (equivalent to a pension pot of around £350k) might be considered fairly small for someone who has "dedicated their life for the betterment of others"

However, quoting the average pension against a lifetime service is highly misleading, but then you knew that, right??

More accurately, someone with full service retiring at age 60 today on £40k p.a. would have a pension worth over £1m, most of which has come from the taxpayer.

Sidicks

[la gran siete]

Originally Posted by sidicks

Meagre?!


You really don't have any credibility whatsoever when you make stupid statements like that!



Indeed, £10k p.a. (equivalent to a pension pot of around £350k) might be considered fairly small for someone who has "dedicated their life for the betterment of others"

However, quoting the average pension against a lifetime service is highly misleading, but then you knew that, right??

More accurately, someone with full service retiring at age 60 today on £40k p.a. would have a pension worth over £1m, most of which has come from the taxpayer.

Sidicks

i am not going to resort to hurling insults at you as you do me but i will reiterate that for a profession which is as demanding as teaching is 10 k is indeed meagre regardless of what you think.Bearing in mind you own very generous salary and no doubt inflated pension,I would say 10k is meagre in the extreme.Teachers have a right to feel indignant IMO vecause they have consistently been undervalued, their pension rights only going some way to making up the shortfall.If the tax payer must stump up the difference as you implied, then so be it as they werent being paid enough in the first place to make higher conributions

[sidicks]

Originally Posted by la gran siete

i am not going to resort to hurling insults at you as you do me but i will reiterate that for a profession which is as demanding as teaching is 10 k is indeed meagre regardless of what you think.

I have not insulted you, merely stated that your claim that teachers' pensions are 'meagre' lacks any sort of credibility.


Would an inflation-linked pension of £10k per annum (worth £300k) be 'meagre' if it were based on a single year of teaching?


Of course not. You are simply misrepresenting the facts (either diliberately or ignorantly) by quoting 'average' pensions (relating to past service) and ignoring the salaries they related to and the amount of service that they were earned with.

Originally Posted by la gran siete

Bearing in mind you own very generous salary and no doubt inflated pension,I would say 10k is meagre in the extreme.

Like many in the private sector I am on a defined contribution pension, so that I personally take all the investment risk, inflation risk and longevity risk. My employer pays a relatively generous 8% into my pot (matched contributions), but of course that pales into insignificance compared to the 25-30% paid to public sector workers by the taxpayer.

Originally Posted by la gran siete

Teachers have a right to feel indignant IMO vecause they have consistently been undervalued, their pension rights only going some way to making up the shortfall.If the tax payer must stump up the difference as you implied, then so be it as they werent being paid enough in the first place to make higher conributions

Does the taxpayer subsidise other (often much lower paid) workers for their pensions because they can't afford to make contributions??


As long as the public sector get their pensions, it doesn't matter if the country goes bankrupt in the meantime, is that what you are saying?

Sidicks

[gazbarber]

We're back to pensions I see ...

Although on a similar vein I believe I saw/read teacher unions are very resistant to performance based pay ... I may be confusing it with regional pay though (I suspect the government would like both).

In all honesty though this is a smoke screen, the pay and conditions of teachers is secondary to the education of children which I think needs improving, I think its rich to complain about the status quo of pay/conditions when the status quo of education outcomes needs to be sorted out.

[Philly112]

Originally Posted by la gran siete

i am not going to resort to hurling insults at you as you do me but i will reiterate that for a profession which is as demanding as teaching is 10 k is indeed meagre regardless of what you think.Bearing in mind you own very generous salary and no doubt inflated pension,I would say 10k is meagre in the extreme.Teachers have a right to feel indignant IMO vecause they have consistently been undervalued, their pension rights only going some way to making up the shortfall.If the tax payer must stump up the difference as you implied, then so be it as they werent being paid enough in the first place to make higher conributions

LGS. The £10k is a meaningless figure. Surely you can see that? Teachers with a 2/3rd final salary pension will get a far larger pension if they put the years in. Or do you think that they should get £10k after 5 days working?
The £10k is AN AVERAGE. Surely you don't believe that a teacher with 40 years in the profession gets a pension of £10k?

Phil

[Philly112]

Originally Posted by gazbarber

the pay and conditions of teachers is secondary to the education of children which I think needs improving, I think its rich to complain about the status quo of pay/conditions when the status quo of education outcomes needs to be sorted out.

Teachers don't want to see education standards rise. They are fully complicit with the grade inflation we have seen over many years, as it can be used to justify their belief that teaching standards are improving.

Phil

[Alan CD]

Originally Posted by sidicks

Supposedly intelligent people, with the future of our children in their hands.

It doesn't bode well!

Sidicks

The future of your children is in your hands and theirs.

Not in the teachers' hands.

[pandemic]

Unfortunately, teachers' salaries are not very good and so the 'gold-plated' pension makes up for it. I think they have a fair case for trying to protect it. I had thought about going into teaching a few years ago, but it meant a significant pay cut and would takes at least 5 years to get back to 'normal' pay.

However, they must let Ofsted in for inspection. I agree with most the other stuff in the OP.

[travid]

Originally Posted by Philly112

Teachers don't want to see education standards rise. They are fully complicit with the grade inflation we have seen over many years, as it can be used to justify their belief that teaching standards are improving.

Phil

Sorry, but that is utter tosh, the rest of it is just tosh.

[gazbarber]

NUT warns over summer holiday cut - UK, Local & National - Belfasttelegraph.co.uk

"Teachers have warned they will resist any attempt to shorten the six-week school summer holiday.
A move to cut the traditional summer break would harm children's learning and teachers' wellbeing , the National Union of Teachers (NUT) said"

[Philly112]

Originally Posted by travid

Sorry, but that is utter tosh, the rest of it is just tosh.

No, it's true. Teachers believe that the rise in grades is a reflection of their better teaching, Anyone with half a brain knows otherwise. If you don't believe that, well fair enough. It's true nonetheless.

Phil

[travid]

Originally Posted by Philly112

No, it's true. Teachers believe that the rise in grades is a reflection of their better teaching, Anyone with half a brain knows otherwise. If you don't believe that, well fair enough. It's true nonetheless.

Phil

Even with my half a brain () I can talk to teachers passionate about raising standards. Why on earth would you do such a job otherwise

It isn't a completly vocational job, of course not, but it's not the type of job you go for if you want an easy life or because it was last on your list.

Its not that I don't believe you think you are correct, or that you believe its true, but your quip was not exactly an intelligent comment

[Philly112]

Originally Posted by travid

Even with my half a brain () I can talk to teachers passionate about raising standards. Why on earth would you do such a job otherwise

It isn't a completly vocational job, of course not, but it's not the type of job you go for if you want an easy life or because it was last on your list.

Its not that I don't believe you think you are correct, or that you believe its true, but your quip was not exactly an intelligent comment

I'm honestly not sure what you are disagreeing with. Do you think educational standards are rising? Do you think teachers are responsible for the rise?
I don't think that standards are rising. I think they are falling. And I do think that teachers are happy with the grade deflation we have been seeing for many years.
I interview people, and I am appalled at the quality of candidates with 'qualifications' coming out of their ears. Not 'A' levels, but 17 year olds who have never read a book and can't add up. But with far more GCSE's than I had in 1977 ('O' levels then). I did a Chemistry degree with less paper qualifications than some of the people I interview. I wouldn't ask any of them to separate sand and salt. They'd struggle to spell either.
I consider myself a Labour supporter. But they (and the previous Tory government in the 1990s), have devalued education in this country.

Phil

[Rasczak]

Originally Posted by gazbarber

NUT warns over summer holiday cut - UK, Local & National - Belfasttelegraph.co.uk

"Teachers have warned they will resist any attempt to shorten the six-week school summer holiday.
A move to cut the traditional summer break would harm children's learning and teachers' wellbeing , the National Union of Teachers (NUT) said"

I can't really comment for the children/learning impact - but surely teacher's "wellbeing" does not hinge upon a six week holiday? I didn't get a six week holiday when returning from a 10 month deployment, nor Sierria Leone, nor Afghanistan. It seems to be another example of teachers refusing to be flexible or, indeed, accepting of any change whatsoever.

[travid]

Originally Posted by Philly112

I'm honestly not sure what you are disagreeing with. Do you think educational standards are rising? Do you think teachers are responsible for the rise?
I don't think that standards are rising. I think they are falling. And I do think that teachers are happy with the grade deflation we have been seeing for many years.
I interview people, and I am appalled at the quality of candidates with 'qualifications' coming out of their ears. Not 'A' levels, but 17 year olds who have never read a book and can't add up. But with far more GCSE's than I had in 1977 ('O' levels then). I did a Chemistry degree with less paper qualifications than some of the people I interview. I wouldn't ask any of them to separate sand and salt. They'd struggle to spell either.
I consider myself a Labour supporter. But they (and the previous Tory government in the 1990s), have devalued education in this country.

Phil

I can agree that my perception is that standards have dropped, but again it seems that education "experts" seem to change the best way to teach even the basic "3 R,s"

I don't blame teachers, especially when they are guided, very strictly, by the N.C. Does this come from the so called liberal 60's? Or is it the educational experts experementing with various theories?

Either way, I dont think teachers are to blame for the current educational decline, apart from the more obvious examples. Bad apples etc, which are obviously present everywhere.