[Scooby2000]

Originally Posted by tapzilla2k

It's called ruling with an iron fist via Robot Monkey Minions.

Or alternatively we need to reform the Economy so it's not so South East/City of London centric. Properly cost new policy so it can be paid for, rebuild infrastructure, come up with a proper energy policy and so on. We also need to generate robust growth so we can actually pay the debts off. Which means creating confidence for Banks and the Private Sector to invest and thus get the economy moving.

What the political parties are doing is tinkering around the edges and engaging in the same old electioneering. When they should have come together to solve the nations problems.

Agree with that(appart from the London bit) How the hell do we get this though. Parties ned to plan ahead more and work together more than they do when it comes to future spending. Our parties seem too reactive and dont seem to plan ahead enough. The UKs infrastructure has declined under both parties, both relying too much on the financial sector, all our eggs are in one basket. Weve gone from from a world leading country to a bit of a joke internally.

Sorry for typos, on my phone.

[icstm]

So parking Cloverleafs comment for a moment. There is a problem with how Northern cities see themselves.

It would be great to rebalance the economy, but there are a number of actions that are unlikely to happen:

1) Northen cities (eg Mancester / liverpool or Glasgow/ edinburgh) need to join up so that they have critical mass on the world stage. London is over 6x the size of any other UK city. Greater London has the popn of Scotland, Wales and NI together.

2) Real economy vs public sector, there needs to be a self funding balance the public sector in an area needs to be afforded by the private sector in the area. This only happens in London - even Scotland is the next most thriving private sector does not balance its public sector.

3) Realise that equality is about opportunities not outcomes.

[overkill]

Originally Posted by icstm

So parking Cloverleafs comment for a moment. There is a problem with how Northern cities see themselves.

It would be great to rebalance the economy, but there are a number of actions that are unlikely to happen:

1) Northen cities (eg Mancester / liverpool or Glasgow/ edinburgh) need to join up so that they have critical mass on the world stage. London is over 6x the size of any other UK city. Greater London has the popn of Scotland, Wales and NI together.

2) Real economy vs public sector, there needs to be a self funding balance the public sector in an area needs to be afforded by the private sector in the area. This only happens in London - even Scotland is the next most thriving private sector does not balance its public sector.

3) Realise that equality is about opportunities not outcomes.

Ah, some things never change......

Pointless comments by right wingers who support a clueless, apart from enriching themselves and party donors, govt as if it knows what it's doing.

What do you know about Northern cities and 'how they see themselves'. Above zero that is?

A super conurbation in the North, how's that for funny..... Not because the cities of the North are backward thinking or hidebound, but because they are all competing for a shrinking pot of money and are up against a govt that is totally Londoncentric, or more precisely 'Tory heartland' centric.

Are businesses being encouraged by the govt to set up in the Regions (never mind the North) outside the SE? No chance. The local business leader on the Wirral summed it up nicely, "the NW has been hit hard by Public sector job cuts and the govt needs to recognise this. The Private sector has been equally hit hard to by these cuts, and, with the outlook as gloomy as it is, we need the govt to be more 'business friendly".

Funny, I thought Osbourne and co were supposed to be business friendly, but I digress........

The problem, as the govt knew full well, but those who follow it, didn't, is that the Public Sector and Private are, as they should be, intrinsically linked. So, when Public sector staff got the push, private sector jobs went too.

How then, was the Private sector to pick up the slack? Without govt investment?

But of course, they can't do that, as they are committed to cuts which are going to bite ever deeper very soon.

The only reason the Private/Public sector in London balances out is because it's the biggest employer and traditionally the lowest levels of unemployment! Give Glasgow the same levels of employment and the same levels of average wage, and I'm sure we'd see the same.

The biggest problem we face is that the consumer led economy is an animal that devours itself. Touting manufacturing as the way forward is comical when the manufacturing sector is now so small, and yet no other alternatives bar this phantom 'high tech future' which materialised in 2010, and, like the 'Big Society smacks of yet another Central office invention to justify dogma driven policies (hello chinless Gove), is being offered up.

Until something concrete arrives to replace the old manufacturing based economy, we are doomed to put up with half baked policies produced by half wits.

And I don't just mean the Tories.

Dovercat, as you say, the NHS is finished and private health care is now here to stay. Funny how policies that line ministers, Lords and Tory donors pockets keep getting passed.

[Scooby2000]

Originally Posted by overkill

Ah, some things never change......

Pointless comments by right wingers who support a clueless, apart from enriching themselves and party donors, govt as if it knows what it's doing.

What do you know about Northern cities and 'how they see themselves'. Above zero that is?

A super conurbation in the North, how's that for funny..... Not because the cities of the North are backward thinking or hidebound, but because they are all competing for a shrinking pot of money and are up against a govt that is totally Londoncentric, or more precisely 'Tory heartland' centric.

Are businesses being encouraged by the govt to set up in the Regions (never mind the North) outside the SE? No chance. The local business leader on the Wirral summed it up nicely, "the NW has been hit hard by Public sector job cuts and the govt needs to recognise this. The Private sector has been equally hit hard to by these cuts, and, with the outlook as gloomy as it is, we need the govt to be more 'business friendly".

Funny, I thought Osbourne and co were supposed to be business friendly, but I digress........

The problem, as the govt knew full well, but those who follow it, didn't, is that the Public Sector and Private are, as they should be, intrinsically linked. So, when Public sector staff got the push, private sector jobs went too.

How then, was the Private sector to pick up the slack? Without govt investment?

But of course, they can't do that, as they are committed to cuts which are going to bite ever deeper very soon.

The only reason the Private/Public sector in London balances out is because it's the biggest employer and traditionally the lowest levels of unemployment! Give Glasgow the same levels of employment and the same levels of average wage, and I'm sure we'd see the same.

The biggest problem we face is that the consumer led economy is an animal that devours itself. Touting manufacturing as the way forward is comical when the manufacturing sector is now so small, and yet no other alternatives bar this phantom 'high tech future' which materialised in 2010, and, like the 'Big Society smacks of yet another Central office invention to justify dogma driven policies (hello chinless Gove), is being offered up.

Until something concrete arrives to replace the old manufacturing based economy, we are doomed to put up with half baked policies produced by half wits.

And I don't just mean the Tories.

Dovercat, as you say, the NHS is finished and private health care is now here to stay. Funny how policies that line ministers, Lords and Tory donors pockets keep getting passed.

I enjoyed that. though tech wise we don't do too bad, but then living in Cambridge I'm surrounded by tech and research so may have a rather distorted view.

[overkill]

Originally Posted by Scooby2000

I enjoyed that. though tech wise we don't do too bad, but then living in Cambridge I'm surrounded by tech and research so may have a rather distorted view.

Cambridge (unlike that dump Oxford) produces some of the finest engineers out there. Sadly, most of them leave for the US these days. Some of Britain's best Hi-Fi marques originated in your neck of the woods.

Mind you. looking at Ebay, a lot of people have had enough of blighty! I keep picking up bargains recently from 'everything must go, emigrating' sellers!

[Scooby2000]

Originally Posted by overkill

Cambridge (unlike that dump Oxford) produces some of the finest engineers out there. Sadly, most of them leave for the US these days. Some of Britain's best Hi-Fi marques originated in your neck of the woods.

Mind you. looking at Ebay, a lot of people have had enough of blighty! I keep picking up bargains recently from 'everything must go, emigrating' sellers!

Yep have Arcam down the road and I think Arm aren't far away. Yes def need to keep more people and ideas in the UK, one thing we are good at is exporting ideas others make money from and the people with the skills to make the things. I'd love to get into tech somehow but without the education I can see it happening sadly, frustrating living where I am.

Why the hell we are so short sighted in this country I don't know, very frustrating.

[overkill]

Originally Posted by Scooby2000

Yep have Arcam down the road and I think Arm aren't far away. Yes def need to keep more people and ideas in the UK, one thing we are good at is exporting ideas others make money from and the people with the skills to make the things. I'd love to get into tech somehow but without the education I can see it happening sadly, frustrating living where I am.

Why the hell we are so short sighted in this country I don't know, very frustrating.

Two words - class system.

It's held us back for over 150 years, seen us lead everywhere and throw away that lead, it wastes people, and keeps useless people in the most dangerous position - at the top.

[icstm]

@Overkill

Seeing as you took time to reply, I shall do the same on the basis that we do not turn this into a slagging match.

Originally Posted by overkill

Ah, some things never change......

The problem is that under the last 30 years many state monopolies were turned into private sector monopolies (hardly good capitalism) and then under labour state sector jobs were given to the private sector (again hardly true private sector). So these are not really private sector jobs – they are pseudo public sector.

My point about these other cities is that they compete against each other. Foreign investors do not think “Yes Manchester is better than Liverpool” they think North West England is better than South West France. But it is rare to see that kind of joined up thinking.

What sort of government investment do you want? I am all for the right sort of investment. Let’s lop £20Bn out of the welfare/health/education/defence budgets (the big budgets should have fat right?...?!?) and set up an investment fund. Any takers with credible business cases that stand up to scrutiny? There are plenty of investors out there looking for a home for their capital. Business are stashing their cash in big piles! So will this really work?

“Glasgow the same levels of employment and the same levels of average wage, and I'm sure we'd see the same.”

I do not understand this statement. Is this not cause and effect the wrong way round? The wages are based on what businesses need to pay to attract the skills they require. Employment is based on successful businesses recruiting.

“The biggest problem we face is that the consumer led economy is an animal that devours itself.”

So we agree here. But what is the way out without the current trend of consumers doing a better job than government of deleveraging and thus having less disposable income? This is going to be a bumpy ride until we have found what will balance the economy

“Until something concrete arrives to replace the old manufacturing based economy”

Do people really expect this to be the realm of government problems? And if you do then would you mind the government setting out the rules of the game?

When they last did that the workers went on strike and killed the old economy. The problem as I see it is that same mentality is still around, there are many MANY people who think government and by that we probably mean the Tories, killed off their jobs. They do not realise that priced themselves out of the market.

Our shipyards, coalmines and other industries were not competitive any longer. Any move to temporary reduce headcount (and probably permanently reduce FTE of certain roles) in the process of modeternisation were met with a short-termist defence that has cost both those communities and the country as a whole a great deal.

Post war post empire, in the 50s and 60s we were a manufacturing powerhouse, but whilst “faster, cheaper, better” became the norm everywhere else. “better conditions, higher wages, tried and tested approach” was the mantra here – if not in absolute terms comparatively to the new economies of Amsterdam's and Singapore’s ports, Japan’s hi-tech and China mass production.

[overkill]

Originally Posted by icstm

@Overkill

Seeing as you took time to reply, I shall do the same on the basis that we do not turn this into a slagging match.



The problem is that under the last 30 years many state monopolies were turned into private sector monopolies (hardly good capitalism) and then under labour state sector jobs were given to the private sector (again hardly true private sector). So these are not really private sector jobs – they are pseudo public sector.

Private companies tendered for the state monopolies and won them. The fact that the bigger companies gobbled up the smaller ones is a fact of Capitalist life. It happens in free market every day, and these are called cartels, and then - 'monopolies'. There is nothing 'pseudo private sector' about what happened at all.

Originally Posted by icstm

My point about these other cities is that they compete against each other. Foreign investors do not think “Yes Manchester is better than Liverpool” they think North West England is better than South West France. But it is rare to see that kind of joined up thinking.

Of course they do. Does any major city in the Western World not? I would not say no if I were you as it's well documented that they do..... Competition is both natural, central govt encouraged, and inevitable given the pool of cash available. I agree whole heartedly that a joined up approach might work better, but, when you are all competing for a shrinking market with shrinking funds, it ain't going to happen.

Originally Posted by icstm

What sort of government investment do you want? I am all for the right sort of investment. Let’s lop £20Bn out of the welfare/health/education/defence budgets (the big budgets should have fat right?...?!?) and set up an investment fund. Any takers with credible business cases that stand up to scrutiny? There are plenty of investors out there looking for a home for their capital. Business are stashing their cash in big piles! So will this really work?

I'm not asking for govt investment the Private Sector is. I don't see you having any qualms about govt ploughing money to 'kick start' the building industry? Or is it only sectors in which Tories have a personal stake that we should see govt money invested? Hmmmm The very things you've mentioned cutting from help the Private sector to create jobs, and cutting those budgets is what's leading to Private sector companies folding! As before, you cut jobs in the Public sector, and the Private sector suffers.

Originally Posted by icstm

I do not understand this statement. Is this not cause and effect the wrong way round? The wages are based on what businesses need to pay to attract the skills they require. Employment is based on successful businesses recruiting.

We are talking regional pay here. As such, as you know, until it comes in there will not be balance in those terms. In terms of skills, there never will be. If you're paid to teach more in London than in Glasgow, you won't choose Glasgow. Expect therefore for standards to drop, not go up, if Regional pay comes in.

Originally Posted by icstm

So we agree here. But what is the way out without the current trend of consumers doing a better job than government of deleveraging and thus having less disposable income? This is going to be a bumpy ride until we have found what will balance the economy

It is, but there is no sign that govt understands this.

Originally Posted by icstm

Do people really expect this to be the realm of government problems? And if you do then would you mind the government setting out the rules of the game?

Govt has set the trend on the development of the economy since the war. Either through direct investment, brining it under the states wing, or through de-regulation, privatisation and creating the consumer economy. To think govt doesn't drive the economy in terms of it's policy, either directly or indirectly is naive in the extreme.

Originally Posted by icstm

When they last did that the workers went on strike and killed the old economy. The problem as I see it is that same mentality is still around, there are many MANY people who think government and by that we probably mean the Tories, killed off their jobs. They do not realise that priced themselves out of the market.

Codswallop.Sorry. Even the Tories now admit that bad management caused the industrial action of the 70's. The unions weren't innocent by any means, but when even Geoffrey Howe admits that British management was provocational and underhand (his words not mine) then the old 'Red robbo' arguments melt away. The Tories did kill their jobs, there is no evidence that we 'needed' to abandon the Heavy industries, and as no-one else abandoned theirs the basis of the 'priced out of the market' theory is, well, what? We have virtually no heavy industry left and yet our Western rivals still had theirs and they paid better too. Please stop clinging to that Thatcherite fantasy.

Originally Posted by icstm

Our shipyards, coalmines and other industries were not competitive any longer. Any move to temporary reduce headcount (and probably permanently reduce FTE of certain roles) in the process of modeternisation were met with a short-termist defence that has cost both those communities and the country as a whole a great deal.

The problem is, who says so? The Shipyards were not closed down due to being 'non competitive' but due to the Tories fiddling the EU out of millions. They privatised the Yards, used EU money for tax cuts that was meant for keeping them state overseen, and the EU demanded it back, with the penalty clause that the yards had to be sold off to repay the money. How does that fit in with being non competitive and local communities resisting modernisation? The coal mines are still viable, they were shut down for political reasons, not commercial, as for the steel industry, well, that's been a catalogue of mismanagement and bad investment not resistance to change.

Originally Posted by icstm

Post war post empire, in the 50s and 60s we were a manufacturing powerhouse, but whilst “faster, cheaper, better” became the norm everywhere else. “better conditions, higher wages, tried and tested approach” was the mantra here – if not in absolute terms comparatively to the new economies of Amsterdam's and Singapore’s ports, Japan’s hi-tech and China mass production.

So we were paying too high wages? Compared to who? Migration from the UK was high in the 60's due to poor wages and limited opportunities. Its a myth that we were a 'powerhouse', and a laughable idea that high wages was to blame for a lack of competitiveness. Try lack of investment, intransigence by businesses and an unwillingness (just as in the pre-WW1 period) to modernise.

I'm not trying to wind you up here, and none of these are 'dark left wing secrets', they are all easily checkable down your local library, oops I forgot, the govt cuts have closed most of those!

[icstm]

@overkill

I'll just pick up on 3 things - voted labour more than tory in the last 3 elections. This is the 2nd thread you have made a mistake with ppl of opposing views assuming them to have voted Tory in the last election.
UK manfacturing is/was high, but back then it was in labour intensive fields rather than Pharma and others today:
LINK

Lastly,

As before, you cut jobs in the Public sector, and the Private sector suffers.

if you cannot see that this is what I mean by the psepseudo public sector, then you are missing the point! What you say is most acutely felt where the private sector's clients are 90%+ UK govt. (be it Serco, A4E, etc) Even BAE Systems UK falls into this camp.

However, given too much off your post is polictically imbalanced, I shall pause from my reply. If you cannot see the difference between German and UK industry - even today, where it does exisit, then I cannot help in your understanding of why we are where we are.

70s/80s govts. may have not helped things, but the writing was on the wall and written by the workers/management

[damo_in_sale]

Originally Posted by GAZBEROTTEN

Lets see

1. They are the government
2. They are the government
3. They are the government

They probably have a lot more power and can get round things easily than you think.

When I was a little boy, I thought my Mummy and Daddy were all powerful too.

[sidicks]

Originally Posted by damo_in_sale

When I was a little boy, I thought my Mummy and Daddy were all powerful too.

For the avoidance of doubt we haven't mentioned anything about Father Christmas yet in case Gazberotten gets too upset....

[damo_in_sale]

Originally Posted by sidicks

Do you agree that economies go in cycles - periods of growth and periods of slowdown / recession (or do you actually believe that Gordon Brown really did 'abolish boom and bust')??

Sidicks

I think it is you who are confused Sidicks. The evidence is clear. Gordon Brown did indeed abolish the business cycle, that fickle phenomenon which has been observed for hundreds of years has been vanquished by the clever use of a 'moral compass'.

It has been replaced by bust.

Don't forget that this great man 'saved the world'?

[pandemic]

Economies don't necessarily have to go in cycles, unfortunately we never seem to learn enough from past errors and history repeats itself.
We need only look at PFIs in 2008 we signed off 32, 38 in 2009; then 34 in 2010 and 39 in 2011. Not to mention we continue with QE.

My new analogy for government spending is like going to the casino and playing the roulette, stick everything on red and hope it pays off.

[damo_in_sale]

Originally Posted by overkill

Private companies tendered for the state monopolies and won them. The fact that the bigger companies gobbled up the smaller ones is a fact of Capitalist life. It happens in free market every day, and these are called cartels, and then - 'monopolies'. There is nothing 'pseudo private sector' about what happened at all.

Of course they do. Does any major city in the Western World not? I would not say no if I were you as it's well documented that they do..... Competition is both natural, central govt encouraged, and inevitable given the pool of cash available. I agree whole heartedly that a joined up approach might work better, but, when you are all competing for a shrinking market with shrinking funds, it ain't going to happen.

I'm not asking for govt investment the Private Sector is. I don't see you having any qualms about govt ploughing money to 'kick start' the building industry? Or is it only sectors in which Tories have a personal stake that we should see govt money invested? Hmmmm The very things you've mentioned cutting from help the Private sector to create jobs, and cutting those budgets is what's leading to Private sector companies folding! As before, you cut jobs in the Public sector, and the Private sector suffers.

We are talking regional pay here. As such, as you know, until it comes in there will not be balance in those terms. In terms of skills, there never will be. If you're paid to teach more in London than in Glasgow, you won't choose Glasgow. Expect therefore for standards to drop, not go up, if Regional pay comes in.

It is, but there is no sign that govt understands this.

Govt has set the trend on the development of the economy since the war. Either through direct investment, brining it under the states wing, or through de-regulation, privatisation and creating the consumer economy. To think govt doesn't drive the economy in terms of it's policy, either directly or indirectly is naive in the extreme.

Codswallop.Sorry. Even the Tories now admit that bad management caused the industrial action of the 70's. The unions weren't innocent by any means, but when even Geoffrey Howe admits that British management was provocational and underhand (his words not mine) then the old 'Red robbo' arguments melt away. The Tories did kill their jobs, there is no evidence that we 'needed' to abandon the Heavy industries, and as no-one else abandoned theirs the basis of the 'priced out of the market' theory is, well, what? We have virtually no heavy industry left and yet our Western rivals still had theirs and they paid better too. Please stop clinging to that Thatcherite fantasy.

The problem is, who says so? The Shipyards were not closed down due to being 'non competitive' but due to the Tories fiddling the EU out of millions. They privatised the Yards, used EU money for tax cuts that was meant for keeping them state overseen, and the EU demanded it back, with the penalty clause that the yards had to be sold off to repay the money. How does that fit in with being non competitive and local communities resisting modernisation? The coal mines are still viable, they were shut down for political reasons, not commercial, as for the steel industry, well, that's been a catalogue of mismanagement and bad investment not resistance to change.

So we were paying too high wages? Compared to who? Migration from the UK was high in the 60's due to poor wages and limited opportunities. Its a myth that we were a 'powerhouse', and a laughable idea that high wages was to blame for a lack of competitiveness. Try lack of investment, intransigence by businesses and an unwillingness (just as in the pre-WW1 period) to modernise.

I'm not trying to wind you up here, and none of these are 'dark left wing secrets', they are all easily checkable down your local library, oops I forgot, the govt cuts have closed most of those!

Hmmm, that's about as verbose as some of the stuff I used to write But I am yet to see how verbose the following is as of this moment.


I think that you desire a world that is long past, never to return.

For one thing, in general, manufacturing requires nowhere near the number of workers it once did for the same unit of output. Technology has seen to that. The automotive industry is a very good example of this. There are examples where this is not true, but these tend to be in nations where people are less expensive to employ than machines. And machines don't complain.

Steel production was once a high technology industry. Now steel is a commodity, a bit like pork bellies but less tasty. Besides, having worked in a steel mill, I can tell you it is the most terrifying place to work I have ever encountered.

However, I am thrilled to hear that you have discovered that 'The coal mines are still viable'. That is indeed wonderful news. Still, I cannot but find it strange that the mining majors haven't flocked to our former collieries to snap up a right old bargain in the last thirty years. After all, they love investing in a gold mine, quite literally

Regardless, here is some data for you regarding manufacturing output. Can you check it please and see if it supports your hypothesis of a ravaged manufacturing sector under the previous Conservative administration?

I suspect it looks better when plotted as a scatter graph in Excel (other spreadsheet applications are available).

My source is "UN National Accounts Main Aggregates Database". I'm not sure who these UN guys are, but they sound like a right bunch of cowboys to me, so I'd take this with a pinch of salt

Table 2: Manufacturing output as % of world total
Gross value added in $US at market exchange rates and current prices
Year, UK Share
1970 4.1%
1971 4.2%
1972 4.1%
1973 3.7%
1974 3.6%
1975 3.8%
1976 3.3%
1977 3.3%
1978 3.5%
1979 3.9%
1980 4.5%
1981 4.2%
1982 4.0%
1983 3.7%
1984 3.3%
1985 3.4%
1986 3.6%
1987 3.9%
1988 4.3%
1989 4.2%
1990 4.3%
1991 4.2%
1992 4.1%
1993 3.7%
1994 3.8%
1995 3.8%
1996 3.9%
1997 4.3%
1998 4.5%
1999 4.3%
2000 3.9%
2001 3.9%
2002 3.9%
2003 3.8%
2004 3.7%
2005 3.5%
2006 3.5%
2007 3.4%
2008 2.8%
2009 2.4%
2010 2.3%

Yes, that was pretty verbose.

Kind regards,

Damo

[johntheexpat]

In this post:
Potential Public Sector Strikes, your feelings?

(and I'm using it only as a reference point)

the comment was made that the interest on the debt was over £50 Bn per year. Presumably quite close to £50 Bn.

However I would say that on £1.5 trillion of liabilities, annual interest is more than £50 billion per annum,

So I was "amused" to read this from the BBC:

BBC News - The truth about Greek Porsche owners

especially the line

Last year, Horst Reichenbach, head of the EU taskforce offering technical help to the Greek government, said the amount of unpaid tax was estimated to be "in the order of 60bn euros [£49.49bn]".

So, if the Greeks bothered to pay their taxes like they should, they could afford everything they had before and a National Debt as big as Britain's.

But they don't pay their taxes, the Government lets them get away with it and we bale them all out.

Why the **** didn't we just let them sink?

[sidicks]

Originally Posted by johntheexpat

Why the **** didn't we just let them sink?

Primarly because the EU is a political project rather than an economic one.

It makes little economic sense to continue to bail them out - it imposes undue austerity measures on the people of Greece and the ongoing costs are paid for by the German population.

However, as soon as one country leaves, the EU masterplan starts to fall apart, and certain people just won';t allow that to happen...

Sidicks

[dovercat]

Originally Posted by damo_in_sale

Regardless, here is some data for you regarding manufacturing output. Can you check it please and see if it supports your hypothesis of a ravaged manufacturing sector under the previous Conservative administration?

Is the fall in percentage terms during recent years due to UK manufacturing output slowing down or shrinking (possible mismanagement by UK industry or government) or is it due to world manufacturing output accelerating with us staying at the same speed not keeping up. Whatever the cause it looks like our importance if we have any as a manufacturing nation in the world is declining.

[icstm]

^ only since the crash, otherwise it was in and around 4%

[la gran siete]

Originally Posted by johntheexpat

In this post:
Potential Public Sector Strikes, your feelings?

(and I'm using it only as a reference point)

the comment was made that the interest on the debt was over £50 Bn per year. Presumably quite close to £50 Bn.


So I was "amused" to read this from the BBC:

BBC News - The truth about Greek Porsche owners

especially the line


So, if the Greeks bothered to pay their taxes like they should, they could afford everything they had before and a National Debt as big as Britain's.

But they don't pay their taxes, the Government lets them get away with it and we bale them all out.

Why the **** didn't we just let them sink?

perhaps because if we do let then sink it could lead to massive instability and sow the seeds for another major conflict, something the EU is at great pains top avoid and a major reason why it came into being in the first place.
I favour a two tier EU with the major players ,including ourselves, within the Eurozone and those deemed to be basket cases , outside it

[Sonic67]

LGS.... Nato

[la gran siete]

Originally Posted by Sonic67

LGS.... Nato

militarily maybe so , but it was also about creating the conditions, by trading and economic development, whereby further conflicts would be unlikely to take place .The precursor of the EU was the coal and Steel community, which was set up to create economic and diplomatic stability amongst nations eager never to go to war again

[Squiffy]

The EU and Euro have certainly done a great job of promoting economic stability in Greece, Ireland, Spain, Portugal, Italy....

[damo_in_sale]

Originally Posted by icstm

^ only since the crash, otherwise it was in and around 4%

Not sure I agree with your conclusion.

3.9% in 1979 (what Labour left The Tories)
4.3% in 1997 (what the Tories left Labour)
3.4% in 2007 (the last figure of the Labour government before any international financial crisis)
2.3% in 2010 (what Labour left the Tory/LibDem coalition)


Let us compare 1997 with 2007, before any global financial crisis, in order to address your argument.

The Tory government left a nation with manufacturing output, expressed as a percentage of world manufacturing output, 26.5% bigger than after ten years of a Labour government.

If we compare 1997 figures to 2010 figures, then the Tories left the nation with manufacturing output 87% better than Labour left the coalition government.

Kind regards,

Damo