[BISHI]

Originally Posted by John F

Like most things you do not have a clue. SH amongst other shipbuilders were denied access to Government subsidies unlike most of the shipbuilding world. IE, South Korea, France and Italy. The quality of shipbuilding was unequalled anywhere in the world. A lot of the workers from SH are spread around the world still working in shipbuilding as these foreign firms realise their worth which all political parties in the UK do not.

As for white collars working as hard as Blue collar workers do not make me laugh. I work hard, have high stress levels, and need to concentrate 100% of the time otherwise someone will get hurt or worse.

Are you saying both France and Italy receive government subsidy to maintain their ship yards..? Sonic seemed to believe this was illegal in the EU and I thought he was right about that. If that is the case why can we not do the same and encourage back these skilled workers.?

[John F]

Originally Posted by BISHI

Are you saying both France and Italy receive government subsidy to maintain their ship yards..? Sonic seemed to believe this was illegal in the EU and I thought he was right about that. If that is the case why can we not do the same and encourage back these skilled workers.?

Yes it is illegal in the EU, however there are ways and means to get round this.

[Cloverleaf]

Originally Posted by John F

Like most things you do not have a clue. SH amongst other shipbuilders were denied access to Government subsidies unlike most of the shipbuilding world. IE, South Korea, France and Italy. The quality of shipbuilding was unequalled anywhere in the world. A lot of the workers from SH are spread around the world still working in shipbuilding as these foreign firms realise their worth which all political parties in the UK do not.

As for white collars working as hard as Blue collar workers do not make me laugh. I work hard, have high stress levels, and need to concentrate 100% of the time otherwise someone will get hurt or worse.

Oh, we are back on the blue collar v white collar old chesnut again , are we ?

Sometimes i feel like im in an episode of Life on Mars

Listen to what you have just said: "I work hard, have high stress levels, and need to concentrate 100% of the time otherwise someone will get hurt or worse"

I think most Doctors could have said that - are they white collar or blue collar ?

In fact a lot of so called "white collar" workers could say the same.

Time to wise up.

[John F]

Originally Posted by Cloverleaf

Oh, we are back on the blue collar v white collar old chesnut again , are we ?

Sometimes i feel like im in an episode of Life on Mars

Listen to what you have just said: "I work hard, have high stress levels, and need to concentrate 100% of the time otherwise someone will get hurt or worse"

I think most Doctors could have said that - are they white collar or blue collar ?

In fact a lot of so called "white collar" workers could say the same.

Time to wise up.

I see you have avoided most of what I have written and cherry picked as usual. Care to answer what I have written regarding shipbuilding or are you spouting your usual hot air that you know nothing about?

As for blue v's white, can you name many white collar jobs outside the medical profession which regularly work hard, have high stress levels, and need to concentrate 100% of the time otherwise someone will get hurt or worse?

[instigator]

Originally Posted by John F

I see you have avoided most of what I have written and cherry picked as usual. Care to answer what I have written regarding shipbuilding or are you spouting your usual hot air that you know nothing about?

As for blue v's white, can you name many white collar jobs outside the medical profession which regularly work hard, have high stress levels, and need to concentrate 100% of the time otherwise someone will get hurt or worse?

The bean counter that ran the nuclear plant in Japan who cut corners to save a few quid and ended up causing a global disaster?

[John F]

Originally Posted by instigator

The bean counter that ran the nuclear plant in Japan who cut corners to save a few quid and ended up causing a global disaster?

We are on about the UK thanks.

[Cloverleaf]

Originally Posted by John F

I see you have avoided most of what I have written and cherry picked as usual. Care to answer what I have written regarding shipbuilding or are you spouting your usual hot air that you know nothing about?

Nothing much to avoid was there ? Some guff about "subsidy" ? Why should the taxpayer subsidise any particular industry ? We did that for years in the 70's with BL If it can't stand up on it's own 2 feet, then let it collapse.
Plus I think someone already mentioned that little thing of it being illegal under EU law.


As for blue v's white, can you name many white collar jobs outside the medical profession which regularly work hard, have high stress levels, and need to concentrate 100% of the time otherwise someone will get hurt or worse?

So what have the Romans ever done for us ? Well apart from.......

Yes. i can actually.

But why is the possibility of getting hurt a definition of "hard work" ?

[John F]

Originally Posted by Cloverleaf

So what have the Romans ever done for us ? Well apart from.......

Yes. i can actually.

But why is the possibility of getting hurt a definition of "hard work" ?

It was my post earlier. See what I mean about you spouting hot air about most things you know **** all about. SH was never about government handouts just asking for a level playing field unlike johnny foreigner. Maybe the best thing for you to do would be go back to your bean counter and let your paymasters keep raping the taxpayer.

[Cloverleaf]

Originally Posted by John F

. SH amongst other shipbuilders were denied access to Government subsidies unlike most of the shipbuilding world.
.

Originally Posted by John F

. SH was never about government handouts just asking for a level playing field unlike johnny foreigner. Maybe the best thing for you to do would be go back to your bean counter and let your paymasters keep raping the taxpayer.

You quite clearly stated the the reason SH went under was the lack of Taxpayer subsidy (well ok you said "Government", but let me let you into a little secret - Government doesn't make any money, it get
s it from taxpayers )

Now you seem to be unsure what you believe.

Well, if they needed subsidies to survive, then stuff 'em.Labour propped up lameduck industries for years, and look what that achieved - nothing.

[John F]

Originally Posted by Cloverleaf

You quite clearly stated the the reason SH went under was the lack of Taxpayer subsidy (well ok you said "Government", but let me let you into a little secret - Government doesn't make any money, it get
s it from taxpayers )

Now you seem to be unsure what you believe.

Well, if they needed subsidies to survive, then stuff 'em.Labour propped up lameduck industries for years, and look what that achieved - nothing.

Ducking the questions again. I am quite sure what I believe is a level playing field for all. Lame duck industries ha ha the banks spring to mind. I'll tell what we should do is remove all taxpayers help from the banks and when you lose your house, you are living on the streets along with the rest of the bankers we can all say stuff em. See the irony? Nope thought not.

[johntheexpat]

Originally Posted by instigator

The bean counter that ran the nuclear plant in Japan who cut corners to save a few quid and ended up causing a global disaster?

What global disaster? Some radioactive material (by some standards, quite a bit) was released into the atmosphere and was very rapidly diluted by the prevailing wind. How many died in or because of the incident? How many have died on UK roads since 'the incident'. Is there any real comparison? was disaster the totally wrong word?

[Cloverleaf]

Originally Posted by John F

Ducking the questions again. I am quite sure what I believe is a level playing field for all. Lame duck industries ha ha the banks spring to mind. I'll tell what we should do is remove all taxpayers help from the banks and when you lose your house, you are living on the streets along with the rest of the bankers we can all say stuff em. See the irony? Nope thought not.

Indeed. You could well make a case for doing that.

But. It would be the biggest exercise in cutting nose off to spite face ever attempted.

We can get by quite nicely thanks without shipbuilders.

Let the banks collapse however, and you are deep, deep down in the brown smelly stuff. Everyone.

See the irony ?

Thought not

[John F]

Originally Posted by Cloverleaf

Indeed. You could well make a case for doing that.

But. It would be the biggest exercise in cutting nose off to spite face ever attempted.

We can get by quite nicely thanks without shipbuilders.

Let the banks collapse however, and you are deep, deep down in the brown smelly stuff. Everyone.

See the irony ?

Thought not

Your the one who does not see the irony. Banks and bankers are failures. You and many other people in the banking sector only have jobs because of the taxpayer. Get off you ****ing high horse and thank your ****ing lucky stars you still have a job. I am tried of agruing with idiots on this forum so I am out.

[johntheexpat]

Originally Posted by John F

I am tried of agruing with idiots on this forum so I am out.

Unfortunately if you do that, he (or she) wins. They are just playing a game, always remember that. Cloverleaf's internet persona is so utterly ridiculous and unremittingly right of Ghengis Khan, that it can't possibly be a true representation of the person at the keyboard. So imagine what kind of person could they really be? My best guess is mid 50's, unemployed, overweight and wearing a tatty string vest while chainsmoking with a half empty tin of high strength lager as an ashtray.

[dejongj]

Blimey was this still going on.

Air traffic controllers wear white collars and aren't bankers last time I was up in that bunker

Could name loads more in blue light services you wouldn't even ever have heard off. Quietly in the background ensuring the infrastructure keeps running and deals are being made.

Sounds to me like the two of you should get out of that grumpy working mans club, put down your pint and prejudices. Lots of workers in all sorts of sectors are essential.

[Mshulla]

Originally Posted by johntheexpat

Unfortunately if you do that, he (or she) wins. They are just playing a game, always remember that. Cloverleaf's internet persona is so utterly ridiculous and unremittingly right of Ghengis Khan, that it can't possibly be a true representation of the person at the keyboard. So imagine what kind of person could they really be? My best guess is mid 50's, unemployed, overweight and wearing a tatty string vest while chainsmoking with a half empty tin of high strength lager as an ashtray.

Lol. Not quite the image I had of him but now I can't shake it.

[Squiffy]

Originally Posted by John F

As for blue v's white, can you name many white collar jobs outside the medical profession which regularly work hard, have high stress levels, and need to concentrate 100% of the time otherwise someone will get hurt or worse?

This has to be the most bizarre argument ever.

As someone else made the point, since when was the potential for someone to get hurt an indicator of working hard?

Does that mean cleaners have an easy job as they don't tend to have much potential to harm themselves or others, don't have high stress levels and don't need to concentrate too hard?

How about we compare a trader sat at a desk focussing and concentrating on his job. Then comparing that to a pilot who also pretty much just sits there and concentrates on his job. Is there some sort of "danger" muscle in the body that realises a mistake for the pilot might injure somebody and therefore ensures the pilot gets a bit more tired?

Seriously John, I've read many bizarre arguments in this forum and your white vs blue argument is up there with the wackiest.

[neilios]

It did start off as a joke,bit the blue collar vs white collar could be an interesting discussion,but it not the point of this thread,and is any man ever going to admit to having an easy job...
Alot of the heated reaction as been aimed at cloverleaf who has a distinguished posting style to say the least..

[John F]

Originally Posted by Squiffy

This has to be the most bizarre argument ever.

As someone else made the point, since when was the potential for someone to get hurt an indicator of working hard?

Does that mean cleaners have an easy job as they don't tend to have much potential to harm themselves or others, don't have high stress levels and don't need to concentrate too hard?

How about we compare a trader sat at a desk focussing and concentrating on his job. Then comparing that to a pilot who also pretty much just sits there and concentrates on his job. Is there some sort of "danger" muscle in the body that realises a mistake for the pilot might injure somebody and therefore ensures the pilot gets a bit more tired?

Seriously John, I've read many bizarre arguments in this forum and your white vs blue argument is up there with the wackiest.

How is it, a trader sitting at his/her desk is only playing at his desk with other peoples money and has no recourse to anyone expect his/her bosses and what's the worst that can happen? They lose shedloads as lots of them do get the sack. A pilot has responsiblity for however many people are on the plane whether most of it is computer controlled or not.

Lots of white collar workers complain of high stress level's yet involve no element of risk to human life. Let them try working were it does and see where their stress level's end up.

Originally Posted by neilios

It did start off as a joke,bit the blue collar vs white collar could be an interesting discussion,but it not the point of this thread,and is any man ever going to admit to having an easy job...
Alot of the heated reaction as been aimed at cloverleaf who has a distinguished posting style to say the least..

I will admit to having the odd easy day but 99% of the time I work damn hard to make sure I and my workmates get home at whatever time of the day or night we get finished.

[dejongj]

So can you only have stress when there is an element of risk to human life? I find that an odd concept, and to be honest I would not feel happy if I had to rely on you for my life and you were stressed about it. I used to be airborne infantry, but I also knew I couldn't rely on my platoon or my captain if they were stressed about it.

Same thing with the pilot example, sure responsible for a lot of people but my best friend who a commercial pilot, captains a 747-400 is not stressed about it. That is his job.

I find it a very odd argument or point you are trying to get across.

[instigator]

Originally Posted by dejongj

So can you only have stress when there is an element of risk to human life? I find that an odd concept, and to be honest I would not feel happy if I had to rely on you for my life and you were stressed about it. I used to be airborne infantry, but I also knew I couldn't rely on my platoon or my captain if they were stressed about it.

Same thing with the pilot example, sure responsible for a lot of people but my best friend who a commercial pilot, captains a 747-400 is not stressed about it. That is his job.

I find it a very odd argument or point you are trying to get across.

+1

Agreed...

Amen, bro...

[dejongj]

Originally Posted by instigator

Amen, bro...

Be careful with that one You will open up another hornets nest in general chat

[instigator]

Originally Posted by dejongj

Be careful with that one You will open up another hornets nest in general chat

Heh heh... :-)

[IronGiant]

Originally Posted by dejongj

Be careful with that one You will open up another hornets nest in general chat

but preferable to his: Innit... which ranks up there with Berties and his: lol



dude...

[John F]

Originally Posted by dejongj

So can you only have stress when there is an element of risk to human life? I find that an odd concept, and to be honest I would not feel happy if I had to rely on you for my life and you were stressed about it. I used to be airborne infantry, but I also knew I couldn't rely on my platoon or my captain if they were stressed about it.

Same thing with the pilot example, sure responsible for a lot of people but my best friend who a commercial pilot, captains a 747-400 is not stressed about it. That is his job.

I find it a very odd argument or point you are trying to get across.

I see you have taken my words out of context. I have never said that I get stressed but that I work in a highly stressed industry. My workmates depend on me keeping a level head at all times as I do, as they do which hopefully by everyone doing so means we all get home safely.

[instigator]

Originally Posted by IronGiant

but preferable to his: Innit... which ranks up there with Berties and his: lol

I'm just trying to integrate innit...

When in Rome and all that...

Still practicing my cockney rhyming... Get ready...

Will unleash it soon...

[IronGiant]

feel free to come across as an eejit if you want

But I thought you were smarter than that

[dejongj]

Originally Posted by John F

I see you have taken my words out of context. I have never said that I get stressed but that I work in a highly stressed industry. My workmates depend on me keeping a level head at all times as I do, as they do which hopefully by everyone doing so means we all get home safely.

Whatever, I haven't even quoted your words so how can I take them out of context.

Lots of people do valuable jobs, albeit market forces may not value them all at the same monetary level, at best you are merely indicating that not everybody is suited to do every job. I know and are man enough to say that I am not suited for every job not even if I tried for a variety of reasons. That doesn't make white or blue collared better. It is just such a ridiculous old concept IMO that has no place in current society an only encourages unnecessary divides.

[instigator]

Originally Posted by IronGiant

feel free to come across as an eejit if you want

But I thought you were smarter than that

Oh I see what you are doing... When you totally failed to understand my simple post on another thread and I said I thought you were smarter than that you now repeated it along with some colorful local language here because well, I don't know why....

Funny...

[Squiffy]

Originally Posted by John F

How is it, a trader sitting at his/her desk is only playing at his desk with other peoples money and has no recourse to anyone expect his/her bosses and what's the worst that can happen? They lose shedloads as lots of them do get the sack. A pilot has responsiblity for however many people are on the plane whether most of it is computer controlled or not.

So now we are talking about how and when people are allowed to be stressed at work?

So if you can "only" be sacked or lose money then your life is easy?

Still I suppose it takes the argument away from your ridiculous notion that only blue collar workers or people at risk of suffering/causing injury can get tired at work.

Originally Posted by John F

Lots of white collar workers complain of high stress level's yet involve no element of risk to human life. Let them try working were it does and see where their stress level's end up..

You have no real understanding of stress. Leaving aside your bizarre notion that blue collar workers all risk life and limb every day at work, stress comes from other factors such as limited time to complete work, too many concurrent tasks, etc.

As this report shows, the most stressful jobs are higher up the income scale and in management jobs.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/research/crr_p...0/crr00311.pdf

Of course you will just dismiss this as being irrelevant as people in cosy office jobs shouldn't be stressed, right? Obviously they must have some variant of the evil gene that sees them complain about trivial stuff compared to all those hardy, salt of the earth blue collar workers.