[MikeTV]

"100 windmills,
sihouetted against the sky,
running round in circles,
you and i."

[IronGiant]

You made me smile

[MikeTV]

So it's been reported that the donors that backed Adam Werrity and Liam Fox are also funding the Tory party, and did so in the weeks leading up to the defence secretary's downfall:

- Michael Lewis (who runs Oceana Investments and is a director of the pro-Israel lobby group Bicom) gave £10,000
- Mick Davis (the chief executive of Xstrata) gave £48,500 to Tory HQ
- Poju Zabludowicz (a main funder of Bicom) donated £2,200

All gave a total of £73,200 to the Tories in the three months leading up to September.

Adam Werritty donors also gave to Tory party, data reveals | UK news | The Guardian

Let's face it - it's comes as no surprise. Typical Tory sleaze.

[Palladio]

Originally Posted by MikeTV

So it's been reported that the donors that backed Adam Werrity and Liam Fox are also funding the Tory party, and did so in the weeks leading up to the defence secretary's downfall:

- Michael Lewis (who runs Oceana Investments and is a director of the pro-Israel lobby group Bicom) gave £10,000
- Mick Davis (the chief executive of Xstrata) gave £48,500 to Tory HQ
- Poju Zabludowicz (a main funder of Bicom) donated £2,200

All gave a total of £73,200 to the Tories in the three months leading up to September.

Adam Werritty donors also gave to Tory party, data reveals | UK news | The Guardian

Let's face it - it's comes as no surprise. Typical Tory sleaze.

Have to agree with that except that unfortuantely these days it's Government sleaze and new labour were no better. Still as long as the 1% are OK all if fine in the world.

[NewMan]

Of course, there's nothing dubious about 86% of Labour party funding coming from Trade Unions - the trade unions who are organising strikes that the same Labour party are making so much of... Despite the official line on whether they support them seeming to be silence from Ed "I'm not in the pocket of the unions" Miliband.

Oh no, I forgot, "Labour aren't in government", so they can do what they like without question or scrutiny according to some.

[MikeTV]

You do realise that the Labour party was founded by the trade unions to defend the welfare of the working population?

[dovercat]

The trade unions should stop funding Labour and start a new political party. Labour and defending the welfare of the working poplulation have not been synonyms for a while.

[NewMan]

Originally Posted by dovercat

The trade unions should stop funding Labour and start a new political party. Labour and defending the welfare of the working poplulation have not been synonyms for a while.

Trade unions and defending the welfare of the working population haven't been synonyms for a while in a lot of cases either - look at the likes of ASLEF or the RMT (can't actually remember which one now!) holding London to ransom over pay rises by threatening strikes during the Olympics... They seem to be completely self-serving, purely to continue funding themselves and the political party they bankroll.

[MikeTV]

Originally Posted by NewMan

Trade unions and defending the welfare of the working population haven't been synonyms for a while in a lot of cases either - look at the likes of ASLEF or the RMT (can't actually remember which one now!) holding London to ransom over pay rises by threatening strikes during the Olympics...

Industrial action - why on earth would a union be doing anything like that, I wonder?!


It's hardly the same as individuals bribing governments to secure lucrative defense contracts in the middle east and influencing policy on Israel.

[MikeTV]

Originally Posted by dovercat

The trade unions should stop funding Labour and start a new political party. Labour and defending the welfare of the working poplulation have not been synonyms for a while.

Agreed. I like the new party idea. Actually, I think we need three new parties.

[Palladio]

Originally Posted by MikeTV

Agreed. I like the new party idea. Actually, I think we need three new parties.

and join up with the Occupy movement to give voters a real alternative with fresh ideas.

In my experience the vast majority of people I meet all want to come out of the EU and that includes business owners as well. How many parties give us that option.


The big worry it that power always seems to corrupt as it has done in the past in some of the bigger unions. Maybe a new start needed by some of the Unions with more transparency.

Power to the People fotr a change.

[stanga]

Originally Posted by MikeTV

Let's face it - it's comes as no surprise. Typical Tory sleaze.

As opposed to typical Labour sleaze.

BTW, I used to work for a Koch owned company. They made paper products. Doesn't quite fit their "evil empire" role in your Guardianista OP.

They had perhaps the best business ethos I've ever come across, and I've tried to work by their principles since.

[MikeTV]

Originally Posted by stanga

As opposed to typical Labour sleaze.

BTW, I used to work for a Koch owned company. They made paper products. Doesn't quite fit their "evil empire" role in your Guardianista OP.

They had perhaps the best business ethos I've ever come across, and I've tried to work by their principles since.

They duped you. How do you explain this recent news report:

"A Bloomberg Markets investigation has found that Koch Industries -- in addition to being involved in improper payments to win business in Africa, India and the Middle East -- has sold millions of dollars of petrochemical equipment to Iran, a country the U.S. identifies as a sponsor of global terrorism. " Koch Brothers Flout Law Getting Richer With Secret Iran Sales - Bloomberg

And this is by Bloomberg, who are not exactly known for their left-leaning sympathies!

“Every single chance they had to do business with Iran, or anyone else, they did,”.

[Palladio]

Originally Posted by MikeTV

They duped you. How do you explain this recent news report:

"A Bloomberg Markets investigation has found that Koch Industries -- in addition to being involved in improper payments to win business in Africa, India and the Middle East -- has sold millions of dollars of petrochemical equipment to Iran, a country the U.S. identifies as a sponsor of global terrorism. " Koch Brothers Flout Law Getting Richer With Secret Iran Sales - Bloomberg

And this is by Bloomberg, who are not exactly known for their left-leaning sympathies!

“Every single chance they had to do business with Iran, or anyone else, they did,”.

Koch Brothers are great at building facades to hide behind and I dare say a lot of their Companies are OK to work for but behind the scenes they are bad news all round for the future of Joe Public.

[Osamede]

Originally Posted by stanga

As opposed to typical Labour sleaze.

BTW, I used to work for a Koch owned company. They made paper products. Doesn't quite fit their "evil empire" role in your Guardianista OP.

They had perhaps the best business ethos I've ever come across, and I've tried to work by their principles since.

If you're talking about Georgia Pacific, their eithics and attitude to sustainability stink. Look beyond the facade. Many years ago I worked for a company that did consulting for them and their attitude toward their own staff was poor.

No surprise when one found out who was behind the company in the first place.

[leedswillprevai]

1) F Liam Fox he is just another politician who broke the rules. He is part of the waste which are somehow held aloft as entrusted with looking after our interests.

2) Tea Partiers.....Some good things, some not, some....just downright insane things.

3) Now if you have paid attention you would notice this has been rebranded as climate change. The earth has been here for a billion years? it has experienced the most insane of climates from truly horrendous heat, to ice ages, to mass tidal waves, to earthquakes which will take your breath away.
Planet's around us are getting hotter too, however having said this the surface air temperature has increased by a little under 1 centigrade. Even the UN studies admit that humans are only responsible for a part of this increase.

Therefore when I think of the real damage that is being caused by depleted uranium, by nuclear spills which are hushed up/played down, to the use of genetically modified crops, the mysterious disappearance of honey bees, then quite frankly to make this the religion is a sick joke. Even the BBC has come out and covered the fact that whoops maybe we are nowhere near a supposed tipping point in the artic. This whole thing is being used to drive through changes which only empower the control the state has over the people but giving the illusion that the people are being empowered to make things better.

4) Oil Companies...not a fan of them, but this is so disengenuous to link oil companies to "deniers" Nice though we all know why this ad hominem is used! So after this claim I started reading into this and it's not true that they are resisting carbon swaps, in fact there are many ways they can modify their processes to make a whole ton of money, That's not my opinion that is what the head of Shell (i think it was) said about the carbon trading.

[stanga]

Originally Posted by MikeTV

They duped you. How do you explain this recent news report:

"A Bloomberg Markets investigation has found that Koch Industries -- in addition to being involved in improper payments to win business in Africa, India and the Middle East -- has sold millions of dollars of petrochemical equipment to Iran, a country the U.S. identifies as a sponsor of global terrorism. " Koch Brothers Flout Law Getting Richer With Secret Iran Sales - Bloomberg

And this is by Bloomberg, who are not exactly known for their left-leaning sympathies!

“Every single chance they had to do business with Iran, or anyone else, they did,”.

To be fair Koch initiated an investigation into its own subsidiary and then openly reported the findings. Who knows the other side of the Egorova-Farines story; there clearly was more to it than "shoot the whistleblower".

Bribery is a major issue in any corporation. Siemens, BAE Systems... it's not a Koch problem, more a corporate one. It certainly isn't an indictment of Koch's overarching business model.

As for sales to Iran... ha! Look to the socialist utopia of Germany for the lead on that one. I know of one German company, owned by Iranians, that sells into Iran. In fact, Germany is probably the number one European exporter to Iran.

The overall editorial tone of that Bloomberg article is laughably biased, particularly:

"For six decades around the world, Koch Industries has blazed a path to riches -- in part, by making illicit payments to win contracts, trading with a terrorist state, fixing prices, neglecting safety and ignoring environmental regulations. "

Iran is only a terrorist state if you are American, and only if you are American are you held up to some rarefied standard that no-one else is expected to live by.

[stanga]

Originally Posted by Osamede

If you're talking about Georgia Pacific, their eithics and attitude to sustainability stink. Look beyond the facade. Many years ago I worked for a company that did consulting for them and their attitude toward their own staff was poor.

No surprise when one found out who was behind the company in the first place.

Georgia Pacific was bought by Koch in 2005... is that "many years" to you?

They did dump a lot of superfluous consultants in the after they gained control. Superfluous consultant being a pleonasm in my experience.

[MikeTV]

Originally Posted by leedswillprevai

1) F Liam Fox he is just another politician who broke the rules. He is part of the waste which are somehow held aloft as entrusted with looking after our interests.

He was defence secetary! And was funded by Koch Industries.

Originally Posted by leedswillprevai

2) Tea Partiers.....Some good things, some not, some....just downright insane things.

I think the tea party was founded to push american politics even further to the right (if that's imaginable!). They make the republicans look more liberal and pallatable.

Originally Posted by leedswillprevai

3) Now if you have paid attention you would notice this has been rebranded as climate change. The earth has been here for a billion years? it has experienced the most insane of climates from truly horrendous heat, to ice ages, to mass tidal waves, to earthquakes which will take your breath away.
Planet's around us are getting hotter too, however having said this the surface air temperature has increased by a little under 1 centigrade. Even the UN studies admit that humans are only responsible for a part of this increase.

Believe me, I have been being paying attention to this issue! As many will know, I have spent many years discussing these issues with people on AV Forums. With respect, I think I am going to continue agreeing with the scientific consensus on the issue of man-made global warming!

Originally Posted by leedswillprevai

Therefore when I think of the real damage that is being caused by depleted uranium, by nuclear spills which are hushed up/played down, to the use of genetically modified crops, the mysterious disappearance of honey bees, then quite frankly to make this the religion is a sick joke.

I am against all those things (except perhaps GM crops). But the global warming threat is the most significant issue among those, by a long way.

Originally Posted by leedswillprevai

Even the BBC has come out and covered the fact that whoops maybe we are nowhere near a supposed tipping point in the artic. This whole thing is being used to drive through changes which only empower the control the state has over the people but giving the illusion that the people are being empowered to make things better.

I see, so you're anti-government, a libertarian. You have a lot in common with the tea partiers. When you reduce government, it really means reducing tax, and reducing services. Which is great for the rich, and disastrous for the poor. What is this "control the state has over the people"? That just sounds like a paranoid conspiracy. The government regulates, and collects taxes to pay for public services like health and education. That's all. Don't you want laws, education, health, defence? We democratically elect them.

Originally Posted by leedswillprevai

4) Oil Companies...not a fan of them, but this is so disengenuous to link oil companies to "deniers". Nice though we all know why this ad hominem is used!

I'm afraid this is simply factual - it's not being "disingenuous", when stating a fact.

Originally Posted by leedswillprevai

So after this claim I started reading into this and it's not true that they are resisting carbon swaps, in fact there are many ways they can modify their processes to make a whole ton of money, That's not my opinion that is what the head of Shell (i think it was) said about the carbon trading.

I'm not sure who was discussing carbon swaps? But oil companies resist attempts to reduce carbon emissions (ie. fosil fuel usage) by funding the global warming deniers.

[la gran siete]

[quote=stanga;15900741]

Look to the

socialist utopia of Germany

have you taken leave of your senses ? Not that i have detected any mind

The Christian Democratic Union of Germany is a Christian democratic and conservative political party in Germany. It is regarded as on the centre-right of the German political spectrum.Angela Merkel , the German chancellor,is its leader.Next thing you'll be accusing Cameron of being a socialist

[MikeTV]

Originally Posted by stanga

The overall editorial tone of that Bloomberg article is laughably biased, particularly:

"For six decades around the world, Koch Industries has blazed a path to riches -- in part, by making illicit payments to win contracts, trading with a terrorist state, fixing prices, neglecting safety and ignoring environmental regulations. "

What evidence do have that it is bias rather than fact?

Originally Posted by stanga

Iran is only a terrorist state if you are American, and only if you are American are you held up to some rarefied standard that no-one else is expected to live by.

Bloomberg is American. The Koch brothers are American. Koch Industries is an American company. So I'm not sure I understand your point. Besides, the UK has sanctions against Iran too. And the UN has reported that Iran is seeking nuclear weapons. Whether the Americans are right about Iran is seperate issue. The point is it shows the ethics of Koch Industries.

[Wild Weasel]

Originally Posted by MikeTV

But oil companies resist attempts to reduce carbon emissions (ie. fosil fuel usage) by funding the global warming deniers.

Ah jeez not this old chestnut. You'll be wheeling out the 97% of scientists agree one next.

[MikeTV]

Originally Posted by Wild Weasel

Ah jeez not this old chestnut. You'll be wheeling out the 97% of scientists agree one next.

191 countries have signed the Kyoto agreement, and agreed to cut C02 emissions in order to combat global warming. So it's hardly an "old chestnut". It's current government policy of almost every country in the world!

[MikeTV]

Originally Posted by la gran siete

have you taken leave of your senses ? Not that i have detected any mind

The Christian Democratic Union of Germany is a Christian democratic and conservative political party in Germany. It is regarded as on the centre-right of the German political spectrum.Angela Merkel , the German chancellor,is its leader.Next thing you'll be accusing Cameron of being a socialist

[Wild Weasel]

Originally Posted by MikeTV

191 countries have signed the Kyoto agreement, and agreed to cut C02 emissions in order to combat global warming. So it's hardly an "old chestnut". It's current government policy of almost every country in the world!

Well stupidity doesn't respect borders. Kyoto is due to expire next year anyway and it's unlikely to be replaced. Never mind, it was built on fake science and a false premise anyway. The 15,000 delegates and lobbyist will enjoy the latest UN global warming junket in Durban, South Africa, but it's a dead issue now. Only the usual junk scientists, their BBC and Guardian press stooges, eco loons and gullible lefties give a damn about it now.

[Osamede]

Wow, quite an bizarre effort taken there to continue irrational denial in face of both broad facts and detailed science.

Presumably, flat earth arguments and holocaust denials will be the next to be excavated from the dustbin of history.

[MikeTV]

I've given up the fight. Some people will never be convinced. They are either incredibly ignorant, or pursuing a libertarian agenda. Or both.

Denialism is a great distraction tactic used to move public debate away from the causes and remedies. Whether it's bail-out denial, evolution denial, global warming denial, financial conspiracy denial, cronyism denial, or whatever. It's simply a smokescreen. Sadly, it is rather effective.

[Wild Weasel]

Honestly, I think that if Micheal Mann and Phil Jones held a press conference to confess they made it all up, you guys would just accuse them of selling out to big oil and carry on regardless.

Originally Posted by Osamede

Wow, quite an bizarre effort taken there to continue irrational denial in face of both broad facts and detailed science.

Presumably, flat earth arguments and holocaust denials will be the next to be excavated from the dustbin of history.

LOL

Where have you been the last 10 years?

[stanga]

[quote=la gran siete;15901544]

Originally Posted by stanga

Look to the

have you taken leave of your senses ? Not that i have detected any mind

The Christian Democratic Union of Germany is a Christian democratic and conservative political party in Germany. It is regarded as on the centre-right of the German political spectrum.Angela Merkel , the German chancellor,is its leader.Next thing you'll be accusing Cameron of being a socialist

Political spectra is relative. Compared to my concept of left and right wing, the Germans are clearly on the left based on their policies on wealth distribution alone.

But thanks for your concern about my senses. Being of Argentinian origin I'm sure you know lots about Germany, particularly those who could commandeer a U-boat in 1945.

[la gran siete]

[quote=stanga;15908469]

Originally Posted by la gran siete

Political spectra is relative. Compared to my concept of left and right wing, the Germans are clearly on the left based on their policies on wealth distribution alone.

But thanks for your concern about my senses. Being of Argentinian origin I'm sure you know lots about Germany, particularly those who could commandeer a U-boat in 1945.

but hardly socialist, otherwise you would have to accuse the US of being so considering they have publicly funded education and libraries
erm German U-boats ?? My birth maybe Argentine but thats irrelevant.I am actually left leaning Brit