[Cloverleaf]

Question - does America have the "influence" to stop the Israelis going solo and bombing this facility ? I don't know, but fear/suspect not ?

[Steven]

Another way of framing the question would be if Israel received credible intelligence of an imminent threat to their very existence, be it the obtaining or use of a weapon as devastating as nuclear capability as the case may be, would Israel wait for the USA's approval or act alone?

You have to feel if it was push come to shove then the answer to whether they would wait is "no"

[Cloverleaf]

Originally Posted by Steven

Another way of framing the question would be if Israel received credible intelligence of an imminent threat to their very existence, be it the obtaining or use of a weapon as devastating as nuclear capability as the case may be, would Israel wait for the USA's approval or act alone?

You have to feel if it was push come to shove then the answer to whether they would wait is "no"

I support Israel's right to defend herself, but I think there is a difference between Iran developing a nuclear weapon, and actually using it against Israel.

I think the former is likely, but not the latter.

[BISHI]

On radio 4 this morning it was saying that Obama was worried that Israel would act withoit US say so........ as usual.............again..!!!

[Sonic67]

In The Times today, article saying if Iran gets nukes Saudi Arabia will buy nukes probably from Pakistan and also work on its own ballistic missile system.

They could have nukes 'within weeks' of Iran having them.

[stanga]

Originally Posted by Sonic67

In The Times today, article saying if Iran gets nukes Saudi Arabia will buy nukes probably from Pakistan and also work on its own ballistic missile system.

They could have nukes 'within weeks' of Iran having them.

It will be interesting to see how the lefties cope when the oil price hits a thermonuclear high!

[BISHI]

Looks like Iran has retaliated - apparently using identical magnetic bombs to those used by Israel to assassinate Iranians. Iran claims it's a set up..!!

Israel blames Iran for twin bombs in India and republic of Georgia*Diplomat

................who knows...!

[Rasczak]

William Hague has warned that Iran's nuclear ambitions could plunge the Middle East into "a new Cold War":

BBC News - Hague fears Iran could start 'new Cold War'

Iran risks nuclear Cold War - Telegraph

Hague stated that if Iran developed nuclear weapons then "other nations across the Middle East will want to" and that without "the safety mechanisms" of the US-USSR rivalry, it would be "a disaster in world affairs".

[BISHI]

Escalation will not start with Iran, it began with Israel and Pakistan. No such international outrage when they developed nuclear weaponry.

[Rasczak]

Originally Posted by BISHI

Escalation will not start with Iran, it began with Israel and Pakistan. No such international outrage when they developed nuclear weaponry.

Not sure I agree TBH. India's arming prompted Pakistan to follow - but didn't start a cascade elsewhere not least because the other big third party (China) was already a nuclear power. At most I think you can say the India/Pakistan scenerio gave Iran the confidence to commence/continue with their own nuclear ambitions - but even then its very debatable. Personally I would cite the US led interventions in Iraq and Afghanistan as probably the biggest drivers for the Iranian events as they seek to maintain themselves as a key regional power.

If Hague is right however and Iran does develop a nuclear bomb everything changes. We could see numerous other Middle Eastern states acquire nuclear capabilities themselves and Western military dispositions may need to be significantly re-thought. Not to mention the reaction that might occur from Israel.

[BISHI]

Pakistan borders Iran and both are vying for regional supremacy.
Israel is the biggest destabilising influence in the region. Both were 'allowed' nuclear weapons, as far as Iran is concerned ( no matter what you or I think) why shouldn't they..?
US intervention is a catalyst that has accelerated the situation by further destabilising the region and feeding Iranian insecurities. It has also directly led to Pakistan trying to assert influence. I don't think blame can be put in any one place, a whole tapestry of historical and political influences have brought us to this point. It is a mess and it is potentially very dangerous.

[BISHI]

Found this -
Project for the New American Century - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
- and after reading it I can see why Iran is so afraid of the USA and why they would feel might necessary to develop nuclear weapons asap.

[stanga]

I read an article on the internet once.

[BISHI]

Originally Posted by stanga

I read an article on the internet once.

Well read this one too, you might learn something new...!!!

[Wild Weasel]

Don't bother. You won't.

[TranceFan]

Unlike the US's shameful record of bombing and sanctions against more than 50 countries since WW2 - killing literally millions of innocent civilians, Iran hasnt waged war on any country for over 300 years; they were attacked by US-backed Iraq during the Iraq/ Iraq war. The UK and US shamefully overthrew the elected leader of Iran in 1953 and imposed the hated dictator the Shah - Im sure the Iranian people were really grateful for 20 years of cruel oppression.

There is no firm evidence Iran have a nuclear weapons programme - the IAEA said so themselves, and US said themselves last February. They don't illegally occupy another peoples land, unlike that other rogue state Israel which HAS nukes, HAS illegal chemical and biological weapons and IS in violation of dozens of UN resolutions.

They are also being targetted by cia/mossad backed terrorist groups such as MEK killing their scientists and civilians. Imagine if the Iranians went around killing our scientists?

Ahmadinijad DID NOT threaten to wipe Israel off the map, this has been discredited The "Wipe Israel Off The Map" Hoax. The real joke is those cheerleaders for a war who control large parts of the Western media are trying again to deceive the public by exaggerating the threat and lying about WMDs again, like they did with Iraq - a war based on a pack of lies that left a million dead. We won't fall for it again.

We should not act now as there is no threat to us. All British politicians efforts should be making the Middle East a nuclear free zone and establishing a Palestinian state based on the 67 boarders as Obama promised - this would go a long way to diffusing tensions in the region.

[Alan CD]

Interesting post from TranceFan. Iran comes across as all sweetness and light.

Don't know much about this part of the world as I have only worked in Yemen, Israel and Lebanon. What I can say is that in Yemen all maps and atlases do not show Israel, that area is blank - totally rubbed out.

All books bought into Yemen by westerners are examined by customs and any reference to Israel are ripped out, the pages are literally ripped out of the books and burnt.

In Yemen Israel does not exist and has been wiped off the maps. I know this from first-hand experience and not through any outside rhetoric.

[TranceFan]

Originally Posted by Alan CD

Interesting post from TranceFan. Iran comes across as all sweetness and light.

no one should be under any illusions that Iranian regime is not brutal at times, and oppressive. They do not however go around starting wars illegally, and occupy other poeoples land. There are other countries that do

[Dave]

Originally Posted by TranceFan

no one should be under any illusions that Iranian regime is not brutal at times, and oppressive. They do not however go around starting wars illegally, and occupy other poeoples land. There are other countries that do

Indeed but 2 wrongs and all that.

Defending Iran by pointing out other countries inadequacies is simply condoning the actions of Iran when in reality they are all wrong wrong wrong.

It would appear that we are sadly getting past the point where anything will work and Iran will inevitably get "the bomb" along with most middle eastern countries. On top of that developing nations like Brazil will also seek nuclear armament.

None proliferation will go out the window and eventually the human race will destroy itself, way to go.

[lucasisking]

Originally Posted by TranceFan

Unlike the US's shameful record of bombing and sanctions against more than 50 countries since WW2 - killing literally millions of innocent civilians, Iran hasnt waged war on any country for over 300 years; they were attacked by US-backed Iraq during the Iraq/ Iraq war. The UK and US shamefully overthrew the elected leader of Iran in 1953 and imposed the hated dictator the Shah - Im sure the Iranian people were really grateful for 20 years of cruel oppression.

There is no firm evidence Iran have a nuclear weapons programme - the IAEA said so themselves, and US said themselves last February. They don't illegally occupy another peoples land, unlike that other rogue state Israel which HAS nukes, HAS illegal chemical and biological weapons and IS in violation of dozens of UN resolutions.

They are also being targetted by cia/mossad backed terrorist groups such as MEK killing their scientists and civilians. Imagine if the Iranians went around killing our scientists?

Ahmadinijad DID NOT threaten to wipe Israel off the map, this has been discredited The "Wipe Israel Off The Map" Hoax. The real joke is those cheerleaders for a war who control large parts of the Western media are trying again to deceive the public by exaggerating the threat and lying about WMDs again, like they did with Iraq - a war based on a pack of lies that left a million dead. We won't fall for it again.

We should not act now as there is no threat to us. All British politicians efforts should be making the Middle East a nuclear free zone and establishing a Palestinian state based on the 67 boarders as Obama promised - this would go a long way to diffusing tensions in the region.

Agressive Islamist theocratic regime + apocalyptic weapon = ...

I'll leave everyone else to ponder what lies at the end of that equation.

Even from your lofty moral high ground, you won't escape the nuclear fall out.

[BISHI]

Originally Posted by lucasisking

Agressive Islamist theocratic regime + apocalyptic weapon = ...

I'll leave everyone else to ponder what lies at the end of that equation.

Even from your lofty moral high ground, you won't escape the nuclear fall out.

Aggressive Jewish regime+conventional and apocalyptic weapon =
or
Agressive superpower with unparalleled conventional & apocalyptic weapon =

As I said before, depends on your perspective as to who you see as the bigger danger..!

Your perspective is clearly from a western point of view - remember the west is only one hemisphere and most of the world lives on the other..!

[lucasisking]

Originally Posted by BISHI

Aggressive Jewish regime+conventional and apocalyptic weapon =
or
Agressive superpower with unparalleled conventional & apocalyptic weapon =

As I said before, depends on your perspective as to who you see as the bigger danger..!

Not really. And its not about who is 'seen' as a threat. Its about who actually is a threat. Both Israel and the United States have had nukes for some time. They have never used them pre-emptively against a neighbour in peacetime, nor threatened to do so except in self defence.

Under the current Presidency, I'd say the chances of the US launching a agressive pre-emptive nuclear strike against any country are close to nil. Ditto for UK, France and the rest of Europe.

Under the Bush administration (and similar far right republican christian nutjobs) id say that rises to maybe 2/10. Remember, even under Dubya the US was never unstable enough to threaten nukes against anyone.

Israel, I'd say a 3/10 chance.

North Korea- maybe 5/10.

Iran? That could be as high as 7 or 8, given the fundamentalism at the heart of their theocracy, and their demonstrable hostility towards Israel and the west.

Far too close for comfort.

Originally Posted by BISHI

Your perspective is clearly from a western point of view - remember the west is only one hemisphere and most of the world lives on the other..!

No, my perspective is that of a rational citizen of the planet Earth. I dont give a damn which hemisphere Im in: Iran's combination of dark-age mentality and nuclear weapons is a terrifying and intolerable threat to the world.

[Sonic67]

Why would Iran launch nukes at anyone? Pakistan is muslim and hasn't. It knows it would get them back. Iran probably has chemical weapons and hasn't used them against Israel. As above the US has spent far more time and effort on starting wars (or bringing about 'peace'). The US hasn't used nukes recently. It doesn't need to. It has massive conventional forces at its disposal.

[BISHI]

Originally Posted by lucasisking

Not really. And its not about who is 'seen' as a threat. Its about who actually is a threat. Both Israel and the United States have had nukes for some time. They have never used them pre-emptively against a neighbour in peacetime, nor threatened to do so except in self defence.

Ok, take away the word 'NUKES' and the story becomes very very different.
The 'daisy cutter' is about as big a conventional weapon as you can get before a nuke - the USA have used plenty in recent years..!
Israel has built a wall around Palestine and regularly kills a disproportionate amount of people should they dare complain. The USA sent stealth bombers to kill shop keepers in Panama when the 'lease' was up, they invaded a commonwaelth country because cuban labourers were helping to build an airstrip in Grenada and they manufactured a threat to the west to justify invading Iraq. Since the Iranian people deposed the western puppet playboy shah in an attempt to take control of their own destiny ( and oil) they have been on the US hit list - and hence threatened by US foreign policy.
To say that the USA has never threatened another nation except in 'self defence' is ludicrous...

[jay mc]

Originally Posted by BISHI

, they invaded a commonwaelth country because cuban labourers were helping to build an airstrip in Grenada ..

Off topic but you sure american involvment in grenada was for this sole reason? or was it to help over through the wanabe communist leaders who had over thrown the rightful goverment on the island that resulted in the exuction of Maurice Bishop who was the rightful prime minster?
Was there last year and spoke to a few people who where on both sides of this, was intresting and also sad to see the bullet holes in the wall behind where Maurice was shot.

Not everything is totaly black and white and while america has blood on its hands can we really dam every form of action they have taken over the years?

[BISHI]

Originally Posted by jay mc

Off topic but you sure american involvment in grenada was for this sole reason? or was it to help over through the wanabe communist leaders who had over thrown the rightful goverment on the island that resulted in the exuction of Maurice Bishop who was the rightful prime minster?
Was there last year and spoke to a few people who where on both sides of this, was intresting and also sad to see the bullet holes in the wall behind where Maurice was shot.

Not everything is totaly black and white and while america has blood on its hands can we really dam every form of action they have taken over the years?

The point I have been trying to make all along is that Iran has every right to feel threatened by the USA......... who are by far the most belligerent nation on the planet. They continue to espouse the the 'spread of democracy' but only when it suits them, democracy didn't 'suit them' in Iran so they propped up the Shah, it doesn't 'suit' them in Saudi Arabia so they continue to ensure absolute monarchy there - the self same monarchy trying to persuade their 'sponsors' to overthrow Iran thus ensuring their own pre eminence in the region. There are many examples and, ok, you can cite the ideological clash with communism post WW2 - but there have been many more recent ones that really do not warrant this excuse -

Will Blog for Food: A Short History of US Overthrow of Democratically Elected Regimes or Why the Rest of the World Hates Us

The last paragraph makes interesting reading and probably explains why Iran thinks it will get away with it - I am no fan of theocratic government - be it the Ayatollahs Iran or George Dubyas neo-con, Christian - crusader Republicans. I am no fan of nuclear weaponry - but I am glad we have them and most other countries do not. Western ( and by that I predominantly mean US ) power is seriously on the wane - and the new fishes in the big pond want to make sure they are there to stay, a nuclear bomb pretty much guarantees that.!

[jay mc]

Originally Posted by BISHI

The point I have been trying to make all along is that Iran has every right to feel threatened by the USA......... who are by far the most belligerent nation on the planet. !

Well just be sure your being factual, you used grenada as a example but picked what part of that intervention would suit the case you where making and ignored the full story. You should be a mp

My view on iran is we should prevent them having nukes, however i also beleave we should be making efforts to remove pakistans and isreals nukes to and as fare as isreal goes we should be doing more control them and give palastine a proper country and rights.

[BISHI]

[QUOTE=jay mc;16516027]Well just be sure your being factual, you used grenada as a example but picked what part of that intervention would suit the case you where making and ignored the full story. You should be a QUOTE]

Hmmmmm.............. read this and then get back to me.!

1983: The US invasion of Grenada | libcom.org

[jay mc]

[quote=BISHI;16516860]

Originally Posted by jay mc

Well just be sure your being factual, you used grenada as a example but picked what part of that intervention would suit the case you where making and ignored the full story. You should be a QUOTE]

Hmmmmm.............. read this and then get back to me.!

1983: The US invasion of Grenada | libcom.org

Intresting link, but again does not cover the full story of what went down there so does not really count..

[Wild Weasel]

Terrible source. Some commie website.