[Phil Hinton]

AVForums Home Cinema Podcast : 17th June 2008

In this months podcast we discuss the latest AV News and tell you everything you need to know about HDMI cables.

(you may need to right-click and save).

01:00 AV News
08:19 Further Plasma market discussion and the Fujitsu story
30:30 HDMI: Everything you need to know....


Time: 1:02:49 Size: 57.5MB

Please reply to this thread with your feedback.

[Nelviticus]

Has the RSS feed been updated? The new podcast is not showing up in my list so I only found out about it by accident!

[Orinj]

My iTunes downloaded this the other day but when I played it, the file was less than a minute long. I'm going to download it directly to see if it was a problem with the feed.

[GrahamMG]

It seems to be only 18 seconds long (277kb), tried both right click and save and just running it. Anyone got any ideas?

[GrahamMG]

Downloads fine now........!

[Phil Hinton]

Just tried the right click and it's working fine for me. Try deleting the last file download and make sure you enpty the cahe and try again.

[GrahamMG]

Yep all works fine now, no idea what the hiccup was. Must be magic!

[PioRow]

Great Podcast as usual, I just wanted to talk about the HMDI cable section. I listened with great interest about all the things I should look for on a HDMI cable. I recently bought some cheap HDMI cables and thought they most likely dont conform to what the guys on the podcast recommend:

http://www.tvcables.co.uk/cgi-bin/tv...1.3-cable.html

But it says "HDMI 1.3 Certified & Logo Stamped" but you guys said look for a lot more information than that, but even the most expensive cables dont seem to carry the spec or information you guys said they should.

My question is without reading the back of a physical box where can I assertain all the information you guys talked about in the podcast. I'm more than happy to pay a bit more to get the desired specification for a quality HMDI cable but it seems the information i require is very hard to come buy.

Any help most appreciated.

[GrahamMG]

Originally Posted by PioRow

Great Podcast as usual, I just wanted to talk about the HMDI cable section. I listened with great interest about all the things I should look for on a HDMI cable. I recently bought some cheap HDMI cables and thought they most likely dont conform to what the guys on the podcast recommend:

http://www.tvcables.co.uk/cgi-bin/tv...1.3-cable.html

But it says "HDMI 1.3 Certified & Logo Stamped" but you guys said look for a lot more information than that, but even the most expensive cables dont seem to carry the spec or information you guys said they should.

My question is without reading the back of a physical box where can I assertain all the information you guys talked about in the podcast. I'm more than happy to pay a bit more to get the desired specification for a quality HMDI cable but it seems the information i require is very hard to come buy.

Any help most appreciated.

Whilst not getting into a "recommend" discussion, I would look on the manufacturers web site and see what gauge copper they use (22swg is the largest that can phyically fit onto the HDMI plug connections), and if they are shielding correctly (triple screening plus overall screen and mechanical braid) they will almost certainly shout about that too.... In my experience if the maximium gauge copper is used and the various lines individually screened the cable diameter will be around 13mm (1/2inch), if it is much thinner than that, well you have part of your answer..... :-)

Also, please remember that many products have "tested" stickers all over them but the simple question is at what length cable was it submitted for testing or did the manufacturer do their own test.....

The words "certified to HDMI standard V1.3b" and including the words "this cable length has been certified to HDMI V1.3b etc....." has to be on any cable that marketing want to sell over and above an inferior item....... The fact that precious few do this also gives you part of an answer......

Stick to the rules, everything else is guesswork..... If a supplier or cable manufacturer won't give you the answers to these simple questions or tries to baffle you with "oh that doesn't matter" should ring alarm bells really....

[Rasczak]

Another superb podcast - many thanks

The HDMI cable section in particular was informative. Perhaps in future podcasts we could have more of the same? The short discussion about the PS3 as a Blu-ray player was also interesting - is there any chance of a future feature discussing BD PQ/AQ of the PS3 versus standalones - in particular the more expensive models such as the LX70a and the new Denons.

[Neil Davidson]

We were recently at TLC Broadcast filming for an upcoming video series of tutorials and they have both PS3 and LX70 in the demo room.

It was very interesting to note just how the perfromance of the Pioneer player improved over the PS3 when we swapped between the two. The more we went through our setup the more differences we found! The effect of PS3 full or limited RGB range was quite interesting for example!

We were not there to specifically test the devices and so there could be some configuartion error or other to explain some of the differences but was still interesting - especially as someone who has demoed over £100k of video system off the back of a PS3 in the past!

[kingfats]

Originally Posted by Neil Davidson

It was very interesting to note just how the perfromance of the Pioneer player improved over the PS3 when we swapped between the two. The more we went through our setup the more differences we found! The effect of PS3 full or limited RGB range was quite interesting for example!

!

H Neil.
Can you say a bit more,or do we have to wait for the video?
Now you've mentioned it can the Pioneer improve BD PQ over the PS3.
All the best.

[GrahamMG]

Hi.
The video's were aimed at tutorials and will be broadcast soon, they were not aimed at showing the differences between BD players but that is an interesting discussion point for the future.

In short, you would expect an LX70a to have better PQ than a PS3 as it is a dedicated BD player and as Neil correctly points out what we viewed could be a result of various settings and we were not there to do a PS3 vs Pioneer.

All products have merits, as Neil pointed out many people including myself have done seriously high end demo's using a PS3 and I have also done demo's with an LX70, once everythig is correctly set the Pioneer will almost certainly have an advantage in PQ but you would expect that as it is double the money. If you combine the advantages of both systems you have a pretty good BD player is a fair comment.

[kingfats]

Originally Posted by GrahamMG

Hi.
The video's were aimed at tutorials and will be broadcast soon, they were not aimed at showing the differences between BD players but that is an interesting discussion point for the future.

In short, you would expect an LX70a to have better PQ than a PS3 as it is a dedicated BD player and as Neil correctly points out what we viewed could be a result of various settings and we were not there to do a PS3 vs Pioneer.

All products have merits, as Neil pointed out many people including myself have done seriously high end demo's using a PS3 and I have also done demo's with an LX70, once everythig is correctly set the Pioneer will almost certainly have an advantage in PQ but you would expect that as it is double the money. If you combine the advantages of both systems you have a pretty good BD player is a fair comment.

Hi Graham.
Cheers for the post mate.
This is the thing that loads of forum members have been trying to find out,including myself can a standalone BD player offer any upgrade in PQ over the PS3 with BD playback @ 1080p/24.
It would be nice to know how the Pioneer achieves this as all the BD players send 1080p/24 source direct and once calibrated there doesn't seem to be any difference at all even the mighty Denon being on par with the cheapest standalone available.
I would love to upgrade if there is any benefit and like the look of the Pioneers,just would like to know a bit more.
All the best.

[GrahamMG]

To be honest there is no simple answer and as I said we were not exploring that question but hey its an idea for the future.

The differences between players can be setup, settings and of course calibration and how the display device handles the signal. Things like ease of control, setup, quick loading, upgradability, DVD handling!!!!!, all need to be considered of course. Statements like "they are all the same once setup/calibrated" is raely correct as there are so many factors to consider. That is why careful setup/calibration gets the best out of a product, only then can you start exploring the possibilities of "is A better than B", always be objective and not subjective

So it isn't a straightforward, to get to "A is better than B" and to do a proper test requires a lot of ground rules. By the time all that is done the models have all changed anyway....... Not easy for a reviewer to do justice to the subject. I am sure Phil would be up for the challenge though, one of the few that takes his job seriously as the quality of his video and audio podcasts show. You also need the help of willing dealers/manufacturers........

[kingfats]

Originally Posted by GrahamMG

To be honest there is no simple answer and as I said we were not exploring that question but hey its an idea for the future.

....

That would be good for the future and forum,i reckon this thread has sparked my interest in BD players again actually i think this is the first time i've read a post on the whole forum since joining recommending a BD player which can offer improved PQ over another.
Interesting stuff.

[Nelviticus]

Don't forget that the PS3 is a loss-leader for PS3 games and as such is subsidised, so it doesn't follow that the LX70 will be better just because it's more expensive. I don't know what the real price of the PS3 would be if Sony had to sell them at cost plus mark-up, but I bet it would be considerably higher than its street price. This Google search is a good starting point.

I can't help thinking that even though Blu-Ray has won the format war Sony have kind of shot themselves in the foot. Nobody else can make significant money out of selling Blu-Ray players because they all have to compete with the sold-at-below-cost PS3.

[GrahamMG]

Originally Posted by kingfats

That would be good for the future and forum,i reckon this thread has sparked my interest in BD players again actually i think this is the first time i've read a post on the whole forum since joining recommending a BD player which can offer improved PQ over another.
Interesting stuff.

I don't think you will find I used the words "recommend" in regard to one BD player over another in a previous post?

With the 101 settings in a PS3, it is all too easy to suffer very slight PQ differences when compared to a dedicated BD player if one setting is not optimised. Frankly though I would still be of the opinion that if you already have a PS3 as a games machine why not use it for Blu-ray disks as well, CI control aside, it does take a lot of beating and is still the fastest loading player I have seen. I could not personally justify buying a dedicated BD player as well currently. anyway this has drifted away from the thread topic so I'll leave it there.

[kingfats]

Originally Posted by GrahamMG

I don't think you will find I used the words "recommend" in regard to one BD player over another in a previous post?

.

Sorry mate,i did see that but couldn't edit my post for some odd reason......even now.
Anyway,all the best.

[kingfats]

Originally Posted by Phil Hinton

AVForums Home Cinema Podcast : 17th June 2008

In this months podcast we discuss the latest AV News and tell you everything you need to know about HDMI cables.

(you may need to right-click and save).

01:00 AV News
08:19 Further Plasma market discussion and the Fujitsu story
30:30 HDMI: Everything you need to know....


Time: 1:02:49 Size: 57.5MB

Please reply to this thread with your feedback.

Cheersd Phil just got round to listening to the podcast i thought it was very good,very interesting discussion on HDMI cables.
All the best mate.

[Avi]

I've just listened to this. Can the custom installer suggest hi def pixel level test material that we can use to asses how HD signal are by different cables ? Or any other objective test that demonstrates the difference.

I'm particularly interested in the sub pixel level disortion and how a single pixel can be made sharper with certain cables.

AVI

[Avi]

Originally Posted by Neil Davidson

We were recently at TLC Broadcast filming for an upcoming video series of tutorials and they have both PS3 and LX70 in the demo room.

It was very interesting to note just how the perfromance of the Pioneer player improved over the PS3 when we swapped between the two. The more we went through our setup the more differences we found! The effect of PS3 full or limited RGB range was quite interesting for example!

We were not there to specifically test the devices and so there could be some configuartion error or other to explain some of the differences but was still interesting - especially as someone who has demoed over £100k of video system off the back of a PS3 in the past!

I'd also appreciate a little more background on the above please.

AVI

[Rasczak]

Originally Posted by Avi

I'm particularly interested in the sub pixel level disortion and how a single pixel can be made sharper with certain cables.

I may have misunderstood but I believe the comments weren't referring to how a 'single pixel' can be made sharper but to over-arching factors such as colour, i.e. the loss of data does not manifest itself in pixel artifacts but in other ways.

[Avi]

Originally Posted by Rasczak

I may have misunderstood but I believe the comments weren't referring to how a 'single pixel' can be made sharper but to over-arching factors such as colour, i.e. the loss of data does not manifest itself in pixel artifacts but in other ways.

I only listened briefly so I may have misunderstood that point, Just listened to the full thing again.

Neil made an interesrting point about the error correction in the HDMI transmitter and reciever. What error correction process does HDMI use ?

So the bottom line is that there are no objective tests to try at home to see the difference in PQ between a £10 Molex cable and £300 Wireworld cable.

AVI

[Neil Davidson]

Originally Posted by Avi

I've just listened to this. Can the custom installer suggest hi def pixel level test material that we can use to asses how HD signal are by different cables ? Or any other objective test that demonstrates the difference.

I'm particularly interested in the sub pixel level disortion and how a single pixel can be made sharper with certain cables.

AVI

Hi AVI,

I guess it would be me who you are reffering to as I spoke about sub pixel effects during the podcast. Just for reference I am not a CI I'm just a distributor to the CI market

The only truely objective test is to use a 'scope and make eye diagrams. I say truely objective because it removes any reliance on human interpretation. This has been discussed many,many times before so need to cover again here.

If you are prepared to accept some level of human interpretation then it is actually possible to do a pretty definitive test to check for problems.

Most of the problems that manifest in the image are as a result of bandwidth problems on the TDMS pairs that carry the RGB signal data. At the sub pixel level this can be seen as pixels at either the incorrect level (too dark or light) or not working at all.

To test this you need to have at least a set of gradient ramps in red, green, blue and greyscale. Gradient ramp test pattern is one which goes from level 0 to 255 (assumimg 8 bit source) thus allowing every level to be tested on screen at the same time.

As you view each of these test patterns you need to look for pixels that are lighter/darker than their neighbours or that are off altogether. It is unlikely that the errors will remain constant on single pixels but you can easily pick them out as they shimmer away. Anyone famiiar with "sparklies" will recognise the pattern as that is effectively what they are! It is also possible to look out for excessive noise which could be another sign of error.

The test should be performed at the highest data rate you will be sending down the cable (1080p60 for example). If you see any noise when looking at one of the individual gradients then it should be easy to pick up the issues when looking at the greyscale gradient.

As clearly stated in the podcast, cost is not a good way to determine the quality of HDMI cables but it is also 100% wrong to use a blanket statement like a digital cable will work or it won't without clarifying exactly what "working" actually means. Below 2m there is probably little chance of errors on any but the worst made products.

It is also essential to remember that just because a £2 cable "works" between one DVD and display it is no guarentee that it will work with another combination. Some displays have built in signal EQ that compensates for cable issues but others do not and can be utterly unforgiving of errors.

I hope that this helps to clarify what was said in the podcast. Anyone who hasn't listened will hopefully get a much better understanding of cable quality by downloading and listening to the podcast.

[Avi]

Originally Posted by Neil Davidson

To test this you need to have at least a set of gradient ramps in red, green, blue and greyscale. Gradient ramp test pattern is one which goes from level 0 to 255 (assumimg 8 bit source) thus allowing every level to be tested on screen at the same time.

As you view each of these test patterns you need to look for pixels that are lighter/darker than their neighbours or that are off altogether. It is unlikely that the errors will remain constant on single pixels but you can easily pick them out as they shimmer away. Anyone famiiar with "sparklies" will recognise the pattern as that is effectively what they are! It is also possible to look out for excessive noise which could be another sign of error.

The test should be performed at the highest data rate you will be sending down the cable (1080p60 for example). If you see any noise when looking at one of the individual gradients then it should be easy to pick up the issues when looking at the greyscale gradient.

As clearly stated in the podcast, cost is not a good way to determine the quality of HDMI cables but it is also 100% wrong to use a blanket statement like a digital cable will work or it won't without clarifying exactly what "working" actually means. Below 2m there is probably little chance of errors on any but the worst made products.

Hi Neil

Thanks for the reply.

I have the test patterns you mention and I can output at 1080p/60. I've observed these patterns in detail relatively recently whilst checking CMS development during Lumagen beta testing.

I'll compare some HDMI cables and report what I see using different source devices and the patterns you suggest. I may ask a local Unversity contact if they have the equipment to measure the signal response from different sample cable/lengths.

AVI

[Avi]

Some interesting info on HDMI version and how the versions affect cable spec -

http://www.bluejeanscables.co.uk/art...s.htm?hdmidept

Also interesting that these guys appear to make high quality cables yet can provide 1m models for less than £10 or category 1 certified to 45' model for £76.

http://www.bluejeanscables.co.uk/sto...bles/index.htm

AVI

[Neil Davidson]

Detailed information can also be found here:

http://www.dvigear.com/education/TCarch.html

and then click on the HDMI under the hood article.

As repeated many times, price is not a good way to shop for digital cables.

[Avi]

Originally Posted by Neil Davidson

Detailed information can also be found here:

http://www.dvigear.com/education/TCarch.html

and then click on the HDMI under the hood article.

As repeated many times, price is not a good way to shop for digital cables.

Neil

Thanks for the link and I agree about price.

As T&W are the European distributors for DVIgear are these the cables you recommend over other brands ?

AVI

[Soldier_I]

Are these podcasts archived anywhere? I keep trying to download this one but the link won't work, also won't right click and save as...


EDIT: Okay, correction - I can't download any of these podcasts! If i right click it justs saves a blank page named 'podcast' and if i click it to open i get this error message - "Unable to connect to the database server at this time."