[reaper12]

Originally Posted by Costas

..and by the way ... i missed mentioning...just through a bit of light on the panasonic screen and then do the same with the pioneer.... just see how it glares and washes out!

Have the PZ80 and the LX5090, they are both the same if you let sunlight in on them. They both look better in the dark.

[YellowSphere]

Originally Posted by reaper12

Yellowsphere, I have read your comment about how you would have to get the PZ80 calibrated, well even with calibration the PZ80 is still 3 to 4 hundred pound cheaper. And I have read lots of posts on the LX5090 thread that if you would be stupid to buy the LX5090 and not get it calibrated. both TV's have to be calibrated to get the best out of them.

Agreed with the final statement, but I find the Pannys unwatchable without calibration, whereas I'd be happy to put up with a movie-mode Pio, or doing my own calibration on it (no way am I going into a service menu).

Granted what I said was exaggerated and the Panny still represents great bang for the buck.

[airmark]

Just came back after spending a few hours checking the two sets at John Lewis. Having read all the previous comments very quickly before I left, I was determined to see the difference in picture quality. If I couldn't see it, when everybody raves about it, then either my vision is impaired or there's something wrong with the display model, in which case I'm not making a perfectly informed decision. I'm not dogmatic, I want to be convinced before deciding.

So I went to the store. Again, the material they had playing on the sets were not helping (DVD on the Pio, SkyHD/SD/BD on different Pannys). Even more unfortunately, the two TVs were not side by side (but then again, as I said before, if the difference justifies almost double the price, then it should be visible even not side-by-side). I went back and forth paying close attention to details, colours, blacks, motion handling etc. I also connected my laptop to the two TVs. Unfortunately I could only connect it via VGA and neither TV accepted 1080p over VGA so I went for 720p for the Pio and 800x600 (!) for the Panny (the highest they allowed, maybe it has to do with my display drivers, but it doesn't matter anyway). I watched samples of a few movies, 720p and 480p. I could see ZERO difference. They both looked very good, but try as I might, I couldn't see any superiority in the Pioneer.

Then I noticed the two bigger sets, the 60" Pioneer (6090) and the 58" Panasonic (58PZ700) that they had side by side , playing SD material though!!! Still, even with the SD material I was pleased to see for the first time that the Pioneer was indeed better. In fact much better. I could see much better blacks, which produced better greyscale, and better colour tones overall. And then I went back to a Panasonic at another part of the room playing the same SD material and I could tell the difference in the black levels. So I was glad that my vision is not impaired, because until that time everybody was raving about the vastly superior quality of the Pioneer, that after you see it, you do not want to watch any other TV, and I could not see it. My conclusion at this point is that the 5090 model at John Lewis Oxford Street is either badly calibrated/set up or is negatively affected by extremely bad positioning. Either way it does not look superior at all to the Panasonic 50" plasma.

Also, regarding the glass reflection, I didn't notice any difference between the two sets. In fact if one of them was marginally better, that would be the Panasonic. Sadly, in this department they are both (as well as the vast majority of the new TVs) quite noticeably worse than my current TV, a 3yr old Syntax Olevia LCD, which has a great matte panel that does not reflect light at all.

So now I am assuming that the 5090 at the store is not properly set up and that the TV has in fact the same superiority in the black levels as the 6090 and it is currently the best 50" TV in the world. And I can afford it. But I still find the 50pz80b a) 100% satisfactory for my needs and b) way ahead in terms of value for money, and therefore it will most probably be my new TV.

In general, most goods and services are priced on a linear scale for logarithmic incremental benefits (or an exponential scale for linear incremental benefit). Somewhere along the spectrum, there is a point (different for everyone) where one feels comfortable paying for the increasing additional premium for a diminishing additional value. My mother is perfectly happy with a 28" CRT. I can't stand it. Most people I know think that my 37" is already big enough (or even too big) and that the picture is perfect. I see lots of room for improvement, hence the upgrade. So I can see why most people would not settle for anything less than the Pioneer, but I'm glad (or actually my bank a/c is glad) that I don't have the same need.

A question to Filo25: you said that "When watching anything on the PC I let the Pio handle the scaling rather than my 8800GT, and it does a great job there too. "
How do you have the TV do the scaling? Doesn't the PC constantly send 1080p signal to the TV?

[-Ad-]

I was in JL Oxfird street the other day, and their setup there is pretty horrible to be honest.

The 5090 is on its own near the sports section, wasn't playing anything and had a stupidly bright light pointing nigh on at it.

The 6090 and 58pz700 were next to each other and it was darker there, but both had friends on which is the worst quality show on tv at this time by a country mile. Then they have a long line of sony tvs, inc the new x series all playing blu-rays, and to be honest they all looked very ordinary indeed.

Bad bad place to do a demo, lighting is all over the shop and the main sets that would be compared by owners are on opposite sides of the areas, and manufacturers varying sized and different models are all in a line. O and also saw the new philips 9903 (correct model number ?). £2.5k for a 42 set that looks like it has been built in an early learning centre with horrible plastics and rough joints, silly ambilight coming from behind and through the bezel which looked like something a D+T student had designed, and PQ that was underwhelming (ok i didn't set it up properly with the remote, but still).

Panasonic PZ80 playing ice age 2 looked the best in there and that was under a bad bright light too.

I would suggest you head up to TLC broadcast in borehamwood in N.London. Great demo experience with a nice environment, and well setup tvs. Plus Tony and Steve know what they are on about, not like the JL guys I heard talking a load of rubbish just to procure a sale..... 100hz is a must with this 8ms panel it gives ultra smooth motion better than plasmas (talking about sony W-series sets )

[davidisom]

Hi,

I have both panels. The Pioneer is so different if they are side by sdre you can see immediately. You would not be unhappy with Panasonic however it is a great panel. It is not really fair to compare the two. The price difference says it all. If you are unable to justify the difference then go for the panny. If however you can afford th extra take the Pioneer, without hesitation.


A simple rule applies here.

You will never regret paying more for something that truly is higher quality but in all instances you could regret paying less and buying lower quality.

In then end in this instance you really get what you pay for.


David and Patricia Isom

ps We use Panny at work for business and Pioneer at home where we enjoy the results of our work.

[airmark]

Originally Posted by reaper12

lol Costas why do you think He is going against the advice here? Everyone here is going on about how great the SD material is on the LX5090 and yes it's amazing, but He will not be watching any SD material, He has stated that already.

Yellowsphere, I have read your comment about how you would have to get the PZ80 calibrated, well even with calibration the PZ80 is still 3 to 4 hundred pound cheaper. And I have read lots of posts on the LX5090 thread that if you would be stupid to buy the LX5090 and not get it calibrated. both TV's have to be calibrated to get the best out of them.

The guy wants best bang for his buck. If He was watching SD and HD material then I would say get the LX5090, but, since He is only going to be using the TV attached to His HTPC then the difference isn't so great. The best bang for his buck is the PZ80.

If money isn't an issue then there is nothing to lose go out and get the LX5090 it's the best TV of the two.

By the way I forgot to thank you for expressing my thoughts. You covered me 100%.

[Filo25]

I'd second the recommendation on going to TLC if its reasonably convenient for you, personally I find viewing TVs in department stores generally a pretty abject waste of time.

I'd guarantee you'd see a difference in the Pio and Panny personally, although whether that difference could justify the price difference is a decision only you could make.

[airmark]

TLS is quite far, about 80 minutes to get there from my place. Is there a store in central London where I could see the sets in a proper environment?

[Costas]

Originally Posted by airmark

TLS is quite far, about 80 minutes to get there from my place. Is there a store in central London where I could see the sets in a proper environment?

Airmark, few places are set up so well as TLC is and you can do the best possible comparison in the right environment and decide for yourself having receive quality advice. You will not regret it.
Ask for Steve. He will set up everything for you... you can see side by side!
All the best!

[airmark]

Originally Posted by Costas

Airmark, few places are set up so well as TLC is and you can do the best possible comparison in the right environment and decide for yourself having receive quality advice. You will not regret it.
Ask for Steve. He will set up everything for you... you can see side by side!
All the best!

I'll try, maybe the w/e after new year's day. But still, even if it's not perfectly setup, a reasonably setup place in central london would be very convenient.

[electrosmith]

Do yourself a fever mate and get your self a Panasonic and save your self some money. With HD material there really isn't that much difference between them. Pioneers are to overrated and overpriced. I've seen demonstrations at Superfi, SoundandVision, as well as the usual electronic stores and there truly is little in it in regards to HD. All this talk from people stating the Pioneer blows the Panasonic away is just Pioneer fanboy talk.

[-Ad-]

Originally Posted by alansmith

Do yourself a fever mate and get your self a Panasonic, with HD material there really isnt that much difference between the Pansonics and Pioneers. Pioneers are to overrated and overpriced. I've seen demonstrations at Superfi, Soundandvision, as well as the useals electronic stores and there truly is little in it in regards to HD. All this talk from people stating the Pioneer blows the Panasonic away is just Pioneer fanboy talk.

Maybe go to a proper dealership where they are setup properly, and you will see the difference. Or maybe try getting an eyetest sorted out.

There isn't really IMO in this matter, the pioneers are streets ahead of the panny sets, not that the pannys are bad at all. Just that the pioneers offer soo much more of a quality picture.

Maybe it's good you are happy with what the panasonics offer, you won't need to spend more on the pioneer. But for many of us the difference is well justified, just see how many people on here have bought the 5090 and other 9G sets.

[Black Adder]

Originally Posted by alansmith

Do yourself a fever mate and get your self a Panasonic and save your self some money. With HD material there really isn't that much difference between them. Pioneers are to overrated and overpriced. I've seen demonstrations at Superfi, SoundandVision, as well as the usual electronic stores and there truly is little in it in regards to HD. All this talk from people stating the Pioneer blows the Panasonic away is just Pioneer fanboy talk.

Nahh...Not really. I hate Pioneer for a number of reasons but just spent around £2,000 last week on one of their TVs because it's just too good compared with the next best. It would be really easy for me not to buy one but I couldn't resist because it is so good. But I was able to compare them properly in my own time on my own terms to see the difference. I tried my best to resist. True. I'm one of those anti-fanboys in as much as I have equal contempt for all of the manufacturers until they prove themselves with a product that is truly worthy. I agree though, fanboys of any manufacturer are a total pain.

[electrosmith]

The Pioneer was claimed to be ISF calibrated in demonstration, even the sales advisers had to admit there was little difference in terms of HD.

[Costas]

Originally Posted by alansmith

All this talk from people stating the Pioneer blows the Panasonic away is just Pioneer fanboy talk.

Believe what you like (entitled to it!) .... but you are completely wrong. The Panasonic are good but the latest Pioneer are simply so much better.

[electrosmith]

You to are so completely wrong, Pioneer are simply not that much better in terms of HD.

[Costas]

Originally Posted by alansmith

You to are so completely wrong, Pioneer are simply not that much better in terms of HD.

Unfortunately you have not had a proper correctly set up comparison .... so you can only claim what you think is the case. Let's talk about it again, after you go to TLC !!!

[electrosmith]

Originally Posted by -Ad-

Maybe go to a proper dealership where they are setup properly, and you will see the difference. Or maybe try getting an eyetest sorted out.

There isn't really IMO in this matter, the pioneers are streets ahead of the panny sets, not that the pannys are bad at all. Just that the pioneers offer soo much more of a quality picture.

Maybe it's good you are happy with what the panasonics offer, you won't need to spend more on the pioneer. But for many of us the difference is well justified, just see how many people on here have bought the 5090 and other 9G sets.

And just look at how many people could of bought a Pioneer but choose not to and opted for a Panasonic, that in its self speaks volumes.

I find all Pioneers gear overpriced overrated, there LCD TV's are a joke.

[Filo25]

Originally Posted by alansmith

And just look at how many people could of bought a Pioneer but choose not to and opt for a Panasonic, that in its self speaks volumes.

Yes it proves that the Panny was the right choice for them given the price difference, a decision thats down to the individual.

To claim that the picture is of the same quality though isn't really defensible

[audiphile76]

Originally Posted by alansmith

And just look at how many people could of bought a Pioneer but choose not to and opted for a Panasonic, that in its self speaks volumes.

I find all Pioneers gear overpriced overrated, there LCD TV's are a joke.

I have been also one of those with lesser budget to spare, who was forced to go the panasonic way. Cheaper is not necessarily better in every case. Ofcourse Panasonic provides a good value for money, but Panasonics have a feature, bet it Plasma, LCD or Camera, they have a lot of noise in dark scenes. This is something that is not so evident on Pioneer plasmas. I cant comment on Pioneer LCDs though

[electrosmith]

Originally Posted by Costas

Unfortunately you have not had a proper correctly set up comparison .... so you can only claim what you think is the case. Let's talk about it again, after you go to TLC !!!

Well considering that the likes of Superfi which had a 65" Pioneer Kuro setup in a cinema type demo room with it being claimed it was ISF calibrated along with SoundandVision even admitting theres not much in it between the Panasonics and Pioneers in terms of HD performance, ring them up if you dont believe me. If the claims were to be true in that the Pioneers "blows" the Pansonics in terms of HD, dont you think they would be telling me this along with those at Superfi, I mean selling more Pioneer's means more money for them.

[electrosmith]

Originally Posted by audiphile76

I have been also one of those with lesser budget to spare, who was forced to go the panasonic way. Cheaper is not necessarily better in every case. Ofcourse Panasonic provides a good value for money, but Panasonics have a feature, bet it Plasma, LCD or Camera, they have a lot of noise in dark scenes. This is something that is not so evident on Pioneer plasmas. I cant comment on Pioneer LCDs though

Why is it you only assume that everyone who decides not to buy the Pioneer and instead buy a Panasonic is because they are on a budget, I think you'll find that most people cant justify spending the extra for what the Pioneer has to offer. Its not that they cant afford it, its just becuase they think its not worth it.

[Black Adder]

Originally Posted by alansmith

Well considering that the likes of Superfi which had a 65" Pioneer Kuro setup in a cinema type demo room with it being claimed it was ISF calibrated along with SoundandVision even admitting theres not much in it between the Panasonics and Pioneers in terms of HD performance, ring them up if you dont belive me. If the claims were to be true in that the Pioneers "blows" the Pansonics in terms of HD, dont you think they would be telling me that along with those at Superfi, I mean selling more Pioneer's means more money for them.

Some will say there is not much between certain models as you have done and this is true. It's how you define this 'muchness' and the degree of it and how much that little bit of extra means to the person. Also you cannot compare and appreciate these differences properly unless you have them in your own home comparing them side by side in your own lighting conditions and your own viewing conditions at your viewing distance.

Comparing TVs in places like Comet is a complete waste of time as they'll be setup differently and have different feeds/wiring etc etc and rarely showing the same programme material simultaneously side by side.

Even going to an extremely well setup specialist showroom, whilst hugely better than the likes of Comet etc, can't give you the true benefit of comparing 2 TVs properly in your own conditions at home where you'll instantly see differences like night and day where you wouldn't spot these fully or at all in any other environment.

Unfortunately, for the vast majority of people it's not possible to cart home a couple of huge plasmas for a week to have at home to fully see the differences in your own conditions. Therefore people only speak as they've perceived in a place like Comet with awful lighting and badly setup TVs that you can't possibly compare due to them being setup differently with different brightness/contrast/colour etc etc settings.

Also, people have different needs and Panasonic have some fantastic models in their range as do Pioneer aimed at different markets offering different levels of perfection in different areas of viewing or the functions that the TV can perform, so there isn't 1 TV that is best suited to everyone. On top of that there is all the 1080p hype blurring everything where people are led to believe that you must have an expensive 1080p TV and not 'an old 720 HD Ready' to get what you want from your TV - case in point here would be some of the Panasonic PZ models which are poorer at SD than their 720 'old HD Ready' models but will cost you twice as much for the privilege of watching poor quality SD compared with their cheaper model.

No wonder everyone gets so heated because everyone is looking for a different level of satisfaction and need depending on what they watch and how perfect they want the TV to be in reproducing the picture. Most don't care about being able to see the picture more accurately by 10% and paying an extra £1,000 for that subjective 10% anyway. I've got a Pioneer 5090 because it suits my particular needs for perfection. In my view it's the best TV out there all round but I haven't compared it with a Pioneer KRP yet, but most people frankly are not interested in the extra viewing pleasure that can be obtained from these 2 models, so they won't, shouldn't and don't buy one, plus most have never seen a proper comparison anyway in their own home.

Panasonic and Pioneer offer different things to different people who have different expectations and both companies have merit, but since they are not paying me to promote their products I'm not a fanboy or supporter of either of them. Their job is to make me a TV that I like and I'll buy it if i think it's worth it. If they go bust tomorrow or someone doesn't like the TV I think reveals the most, I really don't care. I'm a customer and I choose what I want at my price point and perceived quality, and perhaps everyone should do that? If you think the top Panasonic is the best you've seen and it's not worth the extra for a Pioneer then buy the Panasonic and save some cash. If you think and perceive the Pioneer to be best and are willing to pay the extra, then buy that.

[Costas]

Originally Posted by alansmith

Well considering that the likes of Superfi which had a 65" Pioneer Kuro setup

65 inch? Pioneer? Which Kuro model is that? Something totally new? Are you sure it was Pioneer? It is Panasonic which has a 65" !!!!

[-Ad-]

Originally Posted by alansmith

Well considering that the likes of Superfi which had a 65" Pioneer Kuro setup in a cinema type demo room with it being claimed it was ISF calibrated along with SoundandVision even admitting theres not much in it between the Panasonics and Pioneers in terms of HD performance, ring them up if you dont believe me. If the claims were to be true in that the Pioneers "blows" the Pansonics in terms of HD, dont you think they would be telling me that along with those at Superfi, I mean selling more Pioneer's means more money for them.

Well I wouldn't believe superfi for a second, after being in a number of their stores, their salesmen seem to be little more than sprused up COMET/Currys people.

May I suggest you actually have a proper at somewhere like TLC if your around London, or any of the other reputable dealers like Kent Home cinema for example. It's easy to start spouting things on here and sticking in the letters IMO. In this instance there really is no way that people can deny that the pioneer does give a much better picture than a consumer viera panel when both are calibrated and in a dimly lit/dark room. The debate is whether an individual can justify the price increase for the better picture.

I hate to bring up my car analogy again, but it's like saying a BMW M3 is no better than a ford Mondeo ST. The mondeo ST is a very good car, and cheaper than the BMW, but the M3 is in a different league all together, and although the price reflects this, there is no argueing in the performance and handling differences. Wow, comma madness.

[Costas]

Originally Posted by Costas

65 inch? Pioneer? Which Kuro model is that? Something totally new? Are you sure it was Pioneer? It is Panasonic which has a 65" !!!!

So alansmith, you made a "thorough" objective and realistic comparison with the "experts" at superfi by "carefully" looking at a 65" budget Panasonic model considered as a Pioneer !! I am sorry but such close "attention" is perhaps the reason why you think there is no difference.

So many members have spent time and effort in this thread by giving you valuable information and comments which for whatever reason you cannot appreciate and consider but rather repeatedly ignore. I think that we have to accept that in your case nothing can be done. Clearly you do not need the best because you are actually do not want to see or cannot see the best. The likes of retailers you are visiting and referring to speaks for itself. Salesmen you are talking to and be led by do not even know half of what most members know here at the forum
go ahead an buy the Panasonic plasma, it is the best for you !!

Enjoy Christmas

[electrosmith]

So I got the size mixed up with 65 instead of 60, big deal. Hey I'm only repeating the opinions of what SoundandVision and Superfi have said along with my own viewing comparisons. The way I sum it up is if your after better SD and better built in sound then maybe spending the extra is then worth it. But as far as HD performance goes forget it, its just not worth it for what little difference there is.

[reaper12]

Costas, Alansmith is right in this. The difference between the Pio and the Panasonic with HD material is small. I use my TV mostly for HD material from my computer. I sold my PZ800 and upgraded to the LX5090. I did this to experiment, since the LX5090 prices were so good. I wanted to see was the LX5090 really that good.

The biggest difference was SD quality, The Pioneer is way better, it nearly makes me want to watch more SD TV. But It's harder to see that difference when it comes to Bluray movies and computer use. I also have a PZ80 and me and a friend spent last weekend comparing the two side by side. The PZ80 is only 42inch though. And that was the biggest difference, the extra size of the Pio made everything look more impressive. Our conclusion at the end of the weekend? Well I would have been very dissappointed if I had bought the Lx5090 at the price it was during the summer.

Costas, there isn't 100% difference between these TV's. There is a 10% difference at a max. Maybe stretch to 20% if you use mainly SD.

[Costas]

Originally Posted by reaper12

Costas, Alansmith is right in this. The difference between the Pio and the Panasonic with HD material is small. I use my TV mostly for HD material from my computer. I sold my PZ800 and upgraded to the LX5090. I did this to experiment, since the LX5090 prices were so good. I wanted to see was the LX5090 really that good.

The biggest difference was SD quality, The Pioneer is way better, it nearly makes me want to watch more SD TV. But It's harder to see that difference when it comes to Bluray movies and computer use. I also have a PZ80 and me and a friend spent last weekend comparing the two side by side. The PZ80 is only 42inch though. And that was the biggest difference, the extra size of the Pio made everything look more impressive. Our conclusion at the end of the weekend? Well I would have been very dissappointed if I had bought the Lx5090 at the price it was during the summer.

Costas, there isn't 100% difference between these TV's. There is a 10% difference at a max. Maybe stretch to 20% if you use mainly SD.

Even by comparing a 42" with the a 50" is wrong. When you say that the Pioneer looks a little better... it is actually a lot more considering the size as every type of good or bad detail come out much more on a 50". I have seen a few tests side by side with blu ray material and I found the difference significant.
I cannot further argue the PC case as I have not spent the hours of checking I have done with other HD sources.

Have a good Christmas!

[YellowSphere]

Not seen a side by side with Blu-Ray, but comparing work's 5090 with the 50PZ80 today with the BBC HD broadcast of High School Musical (I know, but the picture was alright) showed the Pioneer a clear winner in all areas of the picture. Contrast in particular was much much better. Of course, the counter is that it was a bright showroom, and Panasonics wash out more in high ambient light...