[Kent Home Cinema]

Originally Posted by PaulWilliam

It would be good to hear about how the PF11 is with Phosphor trails, PWM noise, screen reflection, buzzing and fan noise - the supposed Plasma disadvantages. I won't ask about screen retention as you have only just got the PF11 out of the box!

And of course a general review including black level, quality of colour, detail, motion etc. would be good to know.

Of course in the end a demo is the way to go, but a very early view of someone else is always interesting!

Afternoon Paul

Having spent a bit more time with the TH42PF11 I would be perfectly happy with this screen in terms of the points you have highlighted. Certainly the fan noise and buzzing does not appear to be any different to previous models and certainly is not intrusive in any way. There is the initial whoosh you get when you first switch the unit on which then quickly disappears and the only way I can hear any electronic hum is by putting my ear close up to the back of the unit. Even that close I could not hear the fans. This could be partly due to my hearing losing sensitivity due to my advancing years but I don't think so

Chris has run a static test pattern for 5 minutes and there was no retention. This is something that Panasonic commercial panels have rarely been associated with. Mainly to do with the fact they are designed for point of sale applications that may have static images for periods of time. I have only seen screen burn once on a Panasonic commercial screen and this was where we supplied panels to a University which had a static logo showing 24/7 for 2 years. Things have moved on over the years and we don't spend so much time now recommending lowering some of the settings while the plasmas bed in to reduce image retention/ burn. I guess in the same way you don't see many signs nowadays in the back of cars saying 'Please Pass - Running In'.

In terms of screen reflection this can easily be removed if a bright area such as a window etc. is on the opposite wall by using a tilting mount. In terms of phosphor trails/ PWM noise I have seen nothing yet which would give me any cause for concern. Black levels are good but not as good as the Pioneers. Colour etc. on what I have seen so far looks very good.

It is certainly worth getting a demo if you can but I appreciate with the commercial panels the places to view can be quite scarce in certain parts of the country.

Regards

Alastair

[TheWool]

Thanks for this initial heads up Alastair. It does indeed sound like a nice panel.

Regarding the black levels. You mentioned that they are not as good as the Pioneers, which didn't really come as a surprise as I don't think anyone expected them to be. But could you be a bit more specific i.e. which Pioneer models are clearly better - just the Kuros?. Also please could you try and explain the degree of difference, for example, is it clearly noticeable or very slight?

Couple more questions now How long is the warranty period on the PF11s? Also, can you supply the DVDO Egde scaler?

Many thanks for your time and help, Kris.

[Kent Home Cinema]

Originally Posted by TheWool

Thanks for this initial heads up Alistair. It does indeed sound like a nice panel.

Regarding the black levels. You mentioned that they are not as good as the Pioneers, which didn't really come as a surprise as I don't think anyone expected them to be. But could you be a bit more specific i.e. which Pioneer models are clearly better - just the Kuros?. Also please could you try and explain the degree of difference, for example, is it clearly noticeable or very slight?

Couple more questions now How long is the warranty period on the PF11s? Also, can you supply the DVDO Egde scaler?

Many thanks for your time and help, Kris.

Afternoon

I think it would be fair to say if you put the Kuro plasmas next to the commercial panel the difference would be noticable. I don't feel that this should necessarily be seen as a weakness on the part of the Panasonic as the black levels are good - its just that the Kuros are better. Chris has calibrated Panasonics as well as Pioneers so I'll leave him to comment more on this in terms of degree.

The manufacturer's warranty period for the 42PF11 is 3 years and yes we can supply the DVDO scaler.

Regards

Alastair

[TheWool]

Awesome response time Alastair, thanks for your help.

[PaulWilliam]

As Pioneer don't do a 42" 1080p panel, does this mean that the Panasonic TH-42PF11EK is the best 40"-42" 1080p panel out there at the moment?

Though, I do notice the Planar PD420 for £1,800! Maybe that's the winner then!

[jamiejag2]

the planar is an lcd

[PaulWilliam]

Originally Posted by jamiejag2

the planar is an lcd

Agreed.

I wonder why it is over £500 more than the Panasonic?

[jamiejag2]

I considered the planar and found a couple of raving reviews. Apparently it is miles ahead of most lcds and the only weakness was that the set's blacks were not quite up to good quality plasma standards. However try to buy one and it is virtually impossible. Only a few specialized stores sell it. It is also now quite old possibly if a new model comes out this set will be discounted.

[PaulWilliam]

Kent Home Cinema has it listed as one of their products.

Alastair Collie - do you have a demo Planar and if so, what is your opinion on the Planar compared to the new Panasonic?

Thanks

[Liam @ Prog AV]

Planar are part of the Runco product family (Runco, Vidikron and Planar) an American high-end manufacturer best known for their projectors. The Planar PD420 is a decent 42" LCD display but I can't help but wonder as Paul says above who would pay £500 more when I reckon you would get better performance getting one of these Panasonics with something like a DVDO EDGE or Lumagen HDP. The Planar is a very well built screen using the better pick of I think Sharp broadcast LCD panels, and is very well specced with latest Faroudja processing and some colour management control to play with. And the processing is very impressive, very in fact. As a standalone TV is a cracker - the only problem I find is that even after playing around with it for a while, I still find myself wanting a plasma with it's better blacks/black detail, and on-screen contrast. With Panasonic now giving us a 1080p 42" option there is a narrower market for the Planar IMO.

[PaulWilliam]

Cheers for this,

Later in the month I'll be in a position to have a demo of the Panasonic.

I saw a 42" consumer Panasonic 1080p yesterday (PZ800) and it was the best in the shop. Much better than all the other Panasonic plasmas they had and various LCD's. Though the higher end Sony's are very good.

If the TH-42PF11EK is better than the PZ800 then it must be very special.

[Kent Home Cinema]

Originally Posted by PaulWilliam

If the TH-42PF11EK is better than the PZ800 then it must be very special.

Morning Paul

I certainly don't think you will be disappointed when you see a well set up 42PF11.

Regards

Alastair

[usman24]

IMHO the pz800 series panny has a very good black level and is a definite improvement over my 50ph9's black level/contrast.

*forgot to mention that I also viewed a 6090 lx pioneer in the same store and the black level between that [6090] and the pz800 models was not that obvious. the PF11 series should be very slightly better than the PZ800 in theory. Although the 2 sheet glass design can cause ghosting on text and some viewing material which I find annoying.

[bumtious]

Originally Posted by PaulWilliam

As Pioneer don't do a 42" 1080p panel, does this mean that the Panasonic TH-42PF11EK is the best 40"-42" 1080p panel out there at the moment?

Though, I do notice the Planar PD420 for £1,800! Maybe that's the winner then!

I think thats a fair assumption of the Panny at 42" The PF11 is currently about the best out there, still not as good as an Pio 8G set but close, 50" sets are certainly better than the PF10, but that is not hard, but not even close to the performance of a 9G Pio and at 50" Idont expect that many will sell into the domestic market.

[Liam @ Prog AV]

I think the PF11 and PZ800 might be using the same glass panel, or maybe a similar version of the same since they quote similar contrast and gradation figures. But the PF11 does suggest a new waffle rib design, and I would like to see the 50" soon to see if it turns out to be brighter than the 50PF10 was while also providing better blacks and contrast at the same time. Over the Kuro I like the fact that I am not being bothered by PWM noise and I think the PF11 gives us more contrast on-screen, but with comparatively raised black levels as the penalty. Demo of these screens is highly advised before you go out thinking it's no good because it hasn't beaten the Pioneer's blacks, what the Pioneer can't do this well is shadow detail which on the PF11 is lovely and smooth and one should see the difference between the two to appreciate how different (or not) they really are. Video processing seems to have been given some minor improvements, just watching the BBC HD loop I can tell straight away that 1080i video deinterlacing has been improved from what I'm used to seeing on the PF10. It certainly doesn't give us the kind of performance the Pioneer can, and features like 24p ivtc etc, but then again the price difference buys you a DVDO EDGE to go with it.

As you may guess this never turned up on Friday for me to play with over the weekend, I'm running it in now but won't have time to calibrate and play until probably tomorrow night or wednesday (dreaded accountants tomorrow). I'll hopefully get to the bottom of "Monitor" mode which replaces "Super Cinema" and gives us the rather interesting sounding feature of "if the overall APL changes, the brightness of areas with the same signal level does not change". Sounds to me like I wonder what's going on in different areas of the image when this isn't on (i.e. dynamic?). Will get some test patterns and my meter on it later. But just now, looking at our 600m, 50PF10 and 42PF11 I can see that both brands are going to be popular this season.

[usman24]

Originally Posted by Liam @ Prog AV

I think the PF11 and PZ800 might be using the same glass panel, or maybe a similar version of the same since they quote similar contrast and gradation figures. But the PF11 does suggest a new waffle rib design, and I would like to see the 50" soon to see if it turns out to be brighter than the 50PF10 was while also providing better blacks and contrast at the same time. Over the Kuro I like the fact that I am not being bothered by PWM noise and I think the PF11 gives us more contrast on-screen, but with comparatively raised black levels as the penalty. Demo of these screens is highly advised before you go out thinking it's no good because it hasn't beaten the Pioneer's blacks, what the Pioneer can't do this well is shadow detail which on the PF11 is lovely and smooth and one should see the difference between the two to appreciate how different (or not) they really are. Video processing seems to have been given some minor improvements, just watching the BBC HD loop I can tell straight away that 1080i video deinterlacing has been improved from what I'm used to seeing on the PF10. It certainly doesn't give us the kind of performance the Pioneer can, and features like 24p ivtc etc, but then again the price difference buys you a DVDO EDGE to go with it.

As you may guess this never turned up on Friday for me to play with over the weekend, I'm running it in now but won't have time to calibrate and play until probably tomorrow night or wednesday (dreaded accountants tomorrow). I'll hopefully get to the bottom of "Monitor" mode which replaces "Super Cinema" and gives us the rather interesting sounding feature of "if the overall APL changes, the brightness of areas with the same signal level does not change". Sounds to me like I wonder what's going on in different areas of the image when this isn't on (i.e. dynamic?). Will get some test patterns and my meter on it later. But just now, looking at our 600m, 50PF10 and 42PF11 I can see that both brands are going to be popular this season.

Can the lack of shadow detail on the KRP be corrected with proper calibration? Is is really that bad?

[Liam @ Prog AV]

No it's not bad at all, just not as good as the panny which in turn is not as good at outright black. Which is why you need to see it with your own eyes to realise for yourself what the actually differences are in real life. Calibrated Pioneers perform a lot better because we can adjust the gamma differently for the low end and stretch more detail out of it, still looks different to the panny though.

[bumtious]

You certainly do need to go see them because I dont agree with a lot of what is being said.

You need to see with your own eyes.

At the end of the day whatever YOU choose you need to be happy with that choice and having screwed gamma levels to compensate for product shortcomings and poor contrast ratio's is not the way to do it.

Again, the latest Pannies get close to last years 8G sets, messing with gamma too much has an adverse effect on the sence of picture depth, these latest 9g Pios have loads of shadow detail that tha pannies cant get too unless you screw the gamma and you end up with a grey mess as you are raising levels too high to compensate for the high precharge idling levels of the pannies. (Black starting position)

Go look for yourself.

[Liam @ Prog AV]

Originally Posted by bumtious

At the end of the day whatever YOU choose you need to be happy with that choice and having screwed gamma levels to compensate for product shortcomings and poor contrast ratio's is not the way to do it.

Not sure if you understood but I'm talking about the Pioneer here, and running a lower gamma value in the dark areas but not in the light areas to stretch more shadow detail out without sacrificing the overall "punchiness" in the image by running it all at 2.5.

[bumtious]

Originally Posted by Liam @ Prog AV

Not sure if you understood but I'm talking about the Pioneer here, and running a lower gamma value in the dark areas but not in the light areas to stretch more shadow detail out without sacrificing the overall "punchiness" in the image by running it all at 2.5.

I understood loud and clear and knowing the Pios as well as I do, you dont have to do that.!!

As posted elsewhere, by other people also (turbe) calibration software developer, the Pios dont crush black, THEY CAN PRODUCE IT!! you need to know how to set them up properly.

[usman24]

so if a 9g is set at 2.2 gamma shadow detail is lost but 2.5 gamma brings out more detail in the dark? Its a shame this has to be done on such a panel as it is inaccurate is it not? In my experience setting correct gamma [2.2] on a panny usually adds more depth while retaining shadow detail [long as brightness has been set properly, sometimes requiring a bit of black crush to reduce noise levels in the darker areas [panasonic panel]. I suppose my lumagen has a few trick up its sleeve to correct any gamma issues?

[bumtious]

Originally Posted by usman24

so if a 9g is set at 2.2 gamma shadow detail is lost but 2.5 gamma brings out more detail in the dark? Its a shame this has to be done on such a panel as it is inaccurate is it not? In my experience setting correct gamma [2.2] on a panny usually adds more depth while retaining shadow detail [long as brightness has been set properly, sometimes requiring a bit of black crush to reduce noise levels in the darker areas [panasonic panel]. I suppose my lumagen has a few trick up its sleeve to correct any gamma issues?

The 9G does not loose detail at 2.2, and what you are saying re black levels on a panny are correct, there is loads of noise in dark areas and the only way to kill "most" of it is to take brightness below the natural idling level of the panel hence loosing shadow detail.

Pre 8G I would agree with you re depth but now its certainly not the case, things have changes massively.

You need to look at them set up properly.

[usman24]

have any current owners [retailers] of the PF11 series tested these new panels for black level retention? i.e tested these panels for black level stability or fluctuation [brightness].

[TarPot]

I too would be very interested on the findings with these panels. Also, what the mysterious "monitor mode" does!

[wess74]

Hi Liam & Alistar,

When youv'e had sufficent time to play with the new screen, would it be possible to pass comment on a couple of queries:

How does the screen compare to an 8g kuro (non full hd model) of which i own with regard to black level, retension, colour fidelity, and actual viewing experiences and not just a comparison of stats.

I know from being an owner of a kuro how good the picture processing is,but i'm very interested to how the combination of the new pana pro screen and a external vp stacks up against it.

Many thanks

[usman24]

even if the the 50PF11 is a few shades darker than my 50ph9 it should provide satisfying blacks and a quality image when connected to a VP, especially a Lumagen-quality scaling and good calibration options for an ISF calibration.

[bumtious]

Originally Posted by usman24

even if the the 50PF11 is a few shades darker than my 50ph9 it should provide satisfying blacks and a quality image when connected to a VP, especially a Lumagen-quality scaling and good calibration options for an ISF calibration.

Its substatially darker than a 9, the 9 was is arguably the worst panel that have released 10 solved the problems of the but did not improve in the actual picture 8 being about the best thay had previously produced, if you have been happy with a 9, you should be more than happy with an 11 beacuase its black levels are almost at Kuro 8G level, the 10 would have been quite a nice set if it wasnt for its poor blacks.

[usman24]

Originally Posted by bumtious

Its substatially darker than a 9, the 9 was is arguably the worst panel that have released 10 solved the problems of the but did not improve in the actual picture 8 being about the best thay had previously produced, if you have been happy with a 9, you should be more than happy with an 11 beacuase its black levels are almost at Kuro 8G level, the 10 would have been quite a nice set if it wasnt for its poor blacks.

my panny has great picture quality but average black level [lighter than the 42ph9 which I owned previously]. If the new pf11's are 8g kuro black level this would make this an interesting panel. I have seen an 8g pioneer 42" in a store and the black level was excellent!!

[bumtious]

Originally Posted by usman24

my panny has great picture quality but average black level [lighter than the 42ph9 which I owned previously]. If the new pf11's are 8g kuro black level this would make this an interesting panel. I have seen an 8g pioneer 42" in a store and the black level was excellent!!

I know you are looking around but have you seen a 9G, you really need to compare these sets its the only way.

[usman24]

I have had a demo of a 60" 9g pioneer which looked very good [blu-ray] for its size of screen in terms of picture noise. I just wasn't convinced it had good SD performance. I played LOTR return of the king [a good sd transfer] and it looked like a vhs tape. Might have been settings, can't be sure. Blacks to my eyes looked very similar to the 50pz800. both had good colour.

Bumtious, forgot to ask. Does the pf11 produce a ghost image on text etc. with its 2 sheets of glass design like my 50ph9?