[Simon Young]

Well, still haven't heard back from PRC. Appalling really, it's as if they have washed their hands of it. I should have sent a recorded letter but they assured me there was no need. Perhaps they knew they could ignore the issue so long as there was no written proof? Anyway, just sent them this email:

Dear Sirs,

It has been over two weeks since I emailed you regarding the faulty Pioneer PDP-428XD. I have not heard anything more from your customer services team, nor from Pioneer customer services. However, I am not prepared to wait any longer for an engineer to come and tell me what I already know: the TV is not fit for purpose, as per the Sale of Goods Act 1979. Please could you see to it that the set is returned and refunded as soon as possible. As it has been less than 28 days since I received the replacement, my contract should still be with PRC and not with Pioneer.

I look forward to your swift response and action regarding this matter.

I really hope they get off their butts and sort this out before I have to take further action. That would just put me in a bad mood.

[matr69]

Originally Posted by Simon Young

Well, still haven't heard back from PRC. Appalling really, it's as if they have washed their hands of it. I should have sent a recorded letter but they assured me there was no need. Perhaps they knew they could ignore the issue so long as there was no written proof? Anyway, just sent them this email:


I really hope they get off their butts and sort this out before I have to take further action. That would just put me in a bad mood.

You are being too patient with them, get on the phone and to hell with if you get angry or annoyed that seems like what is needed and get a date for the pick up arranged. Put it in writing as well but a human on the end of the phone is a lot harder to confront and deal with than an email or letter and makes things happen and don't let them fob you off.

[Kev12]

Sorry to say but I thought you'd get this kind of response from them.
It was the same with my 4270 with the dirty screen problem, they just didn't want to know.

[Simon Young]

Hmm, just got an email from them:

Reference to your email I have spoken to Pioneer technical they will be dispatching you software upgrade disc with instruction how to cure the screen display fault.

This was my reply:

With all due respect I am certain this is a hardware fault (identical to the first display I returned) and therefore not treatable via a software upgrade. I would wish to return the display for a full refund at the earliest opportunity, on the grounds that it is not fit for purpose. I am now worried that, with all this waiting for yourselves and Pioneer to address the fault, more than 28 days will have passed since I received the replacement, and you will tell me you can't issue me a refund. Please ensure that this does not happen. I made my intentions perfectly clear weeks ago, and this matter should have been dealt with promptly back then. Please see to it that the faulty display is returned for a refund at the first opportunity, or I will have no choice but to take the matter further through the small claims court.

Hope they actually sit up and take notice.

[SimonH]

This could turn into a pain, typically 7 days is rock solid under the distance selling act, the not fit for purpose is often much harder to get agreed upon unless the piece of kit has literally blown up. On the upside you now have in writing them using the words " screen fault", which admits to some degree they accept it does have one.

I wish you the best with it.

[Simon Young]

Thanks for the advice and support. My original email requesting a refund was sent just one week after the replacement arrived. This is why I'm so annoyed. It has taken them over two weeks to get to this point, and I am still no closer to getting a refund. Part of me wonders if they are just sitting this issue out until 28 days have passed, at which point they can just hand it over to the Pioneer engineers. If so that is simply terrible customer service. Until 28 days have passed my contract is surely with PRC and not with Pioneer. What should it matter what a Pioneer engineer says, or what Pioneer advise?

[matr69]

Originally Posted by Simon Young

Thanks for the advice and support. My original email requesting a refund was sent just one week after the replacement arrived. This is why I'm so annoyed. It has taken them over two weeks to get to this point, and I am still no closer to getting a refund. Part of me wonders if they are just sitting this issue out until 28 days have passed, at which point they can just hand it over to the Pioneer engineers. If so that is simply terrible customer service. Until 28 days have passed my contract is surely with PRC and not with Pioneer. What should it matter what a Pioneer engineer says, or what Pioneer advise?

Hi Simon, I am not sure on the 28 days thing, not sure if that idea gets bandied about because john lewis offfer a 28 days non-satisfaction return.

Just was sorting my refund with John Lewis as hadn't been done for 2 weeks and had an utter scruples check to do.

The lady phoned me up and asked if it were correct that £1799 should go back on my card. I had a price match and I paid £1369. The devil on my shoulder (anyone seen National Lampoons AnimaL house for reference) was put too bed and I told her the correct amount to put back on my card.

The 4280 can be had for around £1200 on a price match now

[shrimp3r]

Originally Posted by Simon Young

Thanks for the advice and support. My original email requesting a refund was sent just one week after the replacement arrived. This is why I'm so annoyed. It has taken them over two weeks to get to this point, and I am still no closer to getting a refund. Part of me wonders if they are just sitting this issue out until 28 days have passed, at which point they can just hand it over to the Pioneer engineers. If so that is simply terrible customer service. Until 28 days have passed my contract is surely with PRC and not with Pioneer. What should it matter what a Pioneer engineer says, or what Pioneer advise?

You contract is with PRC regardless of any time period You should contact Consumer Direct to fully understand what your rights are and the next step. IMHO, you need to start preparing to go down the Small Claims route. I think you should write them a letter clearing stating the rejection of the goods under the SOA, stating what you want (i.e refund) and giving them 7 to 14 days to respond to your letter. Make it clear that if a satisfactory response isn't given, you will proceed to small claims. Send this letter recorded delivery. Search AVF for some template letters, I know there's some in the Xbox 360 forums.

Please contact Consumer Direct, as you seem to be worrying about certain aspects unnecessarily.

Mark Mac

[matr69]

Originally Posted by shrimp3r

You contract is with PRC regardless of any time period You should contact Consumer Direct to fully understand what your rights are and the next step. IMHO, you need to start preparing to go down the Small Claims route. I think you should write them a letter clearing stating the rejection of the goods under the SOA, stating what you want (i.e refund) and giving them 7 to 14 days to respond to your letter. Make it clear that if a satisfactory response isn't given, you will proceed to small claims. Send this letter recorded delivery. Search AVF for some template letters, I know there's some in the Xbox 360 forums.

Please contact Consumer Direct, as you seem to be worrying about certain aspects unnecessarily.

Mark Mac

Useful data

[Simon Young]

Originally Posted by shrimp3r

You contract is with PRC regardless of any time period You should contact Consumer Direct to fully understand what your rights are and the next step. IMHO, you need to start preparing to go down the Small Claims route. I think you should write them a letter clearing stating the rejection of the goods under the SOA, stating what you want (i.e refund) and giving them 7 to 14 days to respond to your letter. Make it clear that if a satisfactory response isn't given, you will proceed to small claims. Send this letter recorded delivery. Search AVF for some template letters, I know there's some in the Xbox 360 forums.

Please contact Consumer Direct, as you seem to be worrying about certain aspects unnecessarily.

Mark Mac

Cheers mate, I just spoke to Consumer Direct and they were very helpful. Basically confirmed what you already said! Still, at least they have my call on record and can back up any claims I might have to make, should it go to court. Off to write a letter to PRC!

[shrimp3r]

Originally Posted by Simon Young

Cheers mate, I just spoke to Consumer Direct and they were very helpful. Basically confirmed what you already said! Still, at least they have my call on record and can back up any claims I might have to Nmake, should it go to court. Off to write a letter to PRC!

No problem, glad my 500th post was a good one.

Mark Mac

[Simon Young]

Right, I've composed a letter to PRC. Here's the main body of the letter:

On 17th January, I bought a Pioneer PDP-428XD plasma TV from you for £1550 (plus £30 delivery charge) which was faulty. The problem was that I could see faint vertical stripes running across the screen when viewing areas made up of one colour. It is particularly distracting when viewing sports, animated films and video games, although it is sometimes noticeable on Blu-ray movies too. The fault has been well-documented online, leading to the term ‘dirty screen’.

I complained about this to you on 13th February. After almost two weeks of waiting I was issued with a replacement. I was dismayed to find the exact same fault on the replacement, only worse! I tried to live with the fault for a week but found it too distracting. Under the Sale of Goods Act 1979, goods sold must be “of satisfactory quality” and “fit for purpose”. For a premium TV costing £1550, I do not find a distracting picture flaw to be of satisfactory quality, and because it inhibits my viewing pleasure it is clearly not fit for purpose. I contacted you by email on the 26th February to explain the fault in detail and request a refund. Almost three weeks have passed and I am still waiting for a resolution to this issue. I have lost faith in your ability to supply me with goods of satisfactory quality. I wish to reject the goods and claim a refund. Please respond to my complaint within seven days.

Hope it gets a response!

[shrimp3r]

Good letter mate - did you say what would happen after seven days, i.e Small Claims Court.

Mark Mac

[Simon Young]

No, Consumer Direct advised me not to go down that route just yet. They said that 9 times out of 10, the company will respond to a recorded letter.

[Simon Young]

Well I just had a phone call from PRC to say that they have received my letter and have contacted Pioneer Technical Support to arrange an engineer to come out and look at my plasma. Apparently they need to report it as faulty before PRC will agree to a refund. However, if the engineer is unable to see the fault the he can apparently charge me for the call out! I find that unacceptable, but I'm not sure what else I can do. Frankly I had expected a reply in writing from PRC, given that my letter was addressed to the manager.

I can just see what's going to happen. The engineer will deny the fault and tow the Pioneer company line, I'll be charged some ridiculous fee and then I will be stuck with a faulty TV. Perhaps I should start preparing my second letter - one that ends with the words "small claims court".

[FuzzyinLondon]

I'm going to try and pop into PRC this weekend and have a stern word with them. I think it was me who recommended them in the first place so I feel really bad. I've bought a few things from them before as they're local to me and never had a problem. I guess you don't really know how good a company is until something actually goes wrong. Is there any additional info that I need. I'm guessing Simon Young is your real name so if I refer to you they should know who I'm talking about. I'll be making it clear to them that it was I who recommended them and that if this is the way they treat customers with faulty products, I certainly won't be recommending them to anyone again. Sorry for all the aggro Simon. I'll let you know how I get on if I can get down there this weekend.

[shrimp3r]

Originally Posted by Simon Young

Well I just had a phone call from PRC to say that they have received my letter and have contacted Pioneer Technical Support to arrange an engineer to come out and look at my plasma. Apparently they need to report it as faulty before PRC will agree to a refund. However, if the engineer is unable to see the fault the he can apparently charge me for the call out! I find that unacceptable, but I'm not sure what else I can do. Frankly I had expected a reply in writing from PRC, given that my letter was addressed to the manager.

I can just see what's going to happen. The engineer will deny the fault and tow the Pioneer company line, I'll be charged some ridiculous fee and then I will be stuck with a faulty TV. Perhaps I should start preparing my second letter - one that ends with the words "small claims court".

Hmm, well the Pio official line is that this isn't a fault. If you were to go down the small claims court route, I think you might have to get an independent engineer to look at your set and compile a report and then include the cost of that in your claim. Out of interest, what did they base their decision to replace your first set on? Sorry to sound like a broken record, but maybe check with Consumer Direct before they close for Easter.

Also looking on the bright side, at least they are entertaining the idea of a refund - now you need to focus on establishing a fair process of confirming the fault, which is why I'd be interested to know how the original was replaced? If that processes was good enough then, why can't it be applied now? I don't remember you getting a Pio engineer visiting before your first screen was replaced.

Regards

Mark Mac

[Simon Young]

Good news - looks like I'll be getting an independent engineer and he won't be charging any fee regardless of the outcome!

Originally Posted by FuzzyinLondon

I'm going to try and pop into PRC this weekend and have a stern word with them. I think it was me who recommended them in the first place so I feel really bad. I've bought a few things from them before as they're local to me and never had a problem. I guess you don't really know how good a company is until something actually goes wrong. Is there any additional info that I need. I'm guessing Simon Young is your real name so if I refer to you they should know who I'm talking about. I'll be making it clear to them that it was I who recommended them and that if this is the way they treat customers with faulty products, I certainly won't be recommending them to anyone again. Sorry for all the aggro Simon. I'll let you know how I get on if I can get down there this weekend.

Cheers mate, I appreciate it. Don't go out of your way though!

Originally Posted by shrimp3r

Hmm, well the Pio official line is that this isn't a fault. If you were to go down the small claims court route, I think you might have to get an independent engineer to look at your set and compile a report and then include the cost of that in your claim. Out of interest, what did they base their decision to replace your first set on? Sorry to sound like a broken record, but maybe check with Consumer Direct before they close for Easter.

They based their decision to replace my first set on the grounds that Pioneer said it was faulty! I phoned PRC up to report the fault, they passed me on to Pioneer who listened to my description of the fault and then passed me back to PRC for a replacement.

Originally Posted by shrimp3r

Also looking on the bright side, at least they are entertaining the idea of a refund - now you need to focus on establishing a fair process of confirming the fault, which is why I'd be interested to know how the original was replaced? If that processes was good enough then, why can't it be applied now? I don't remember you getting a Pio engineer visiting before your first screen was replaced.

True. They simply took my word for it (based on my description of the fault) and turned up a couple of weeks later with a replacement. It was only after PRC examined the set themselves that they began to question the validity of my complaint, which seems ridiculous to me as they are merely salespeople and not engineers. Hopefully the engineer I get next week will spot the fault immediately.

[shrimp3r]

Well good luck mate.

Mark Mac

[Simon Young]

Well, the engineers came round this morning. Nice couple of guys from PVS (Peterborough Video Service). No chit-chat, just came straight in and took a close look at the problem. After less than a minute of me demonstrating the fault, one of the guys said he could clearly see it. He was sitting quite close, so I suggested he sit in my normal viewing position (about seven feet away) from where he could see it even more clearly. He described it as being quite noticeable. His partner (the younger of the two) also said he could see it but wouldn't have had I not pointed it out. I explained that once you noticed it, it becomes impossible to ignore - especially if you're watching sport or playing some video game where the camera is constantly panning around. They both agreed wholeheartedly, and said it looked like a panel fault. They said they'd be making a report to Pioneer and would be in contact within a few days - at which point alarm bells started going off in my head. Why were Pioneer at all involved? Surely PRC should be the recipient of this info! I begin to wonder if PRC have just washed their hands of it and expect me to send it in for repair!

[FuzzyinLondon]

Well, I went into PRC yesterday. The guy there didn't know what I was talking about and the boss was enjoying having the bank holiday off apparently. The guy in there said it was standard for a Pioneer engineer to assess the set but that usually it should all happen much faster. The fact that Pioneer are involved may be to do with the terms of their five year warranty. This also worries me too. If something goes wrong with my 4280XD will it mean that I have to deal with Pioneer directly instead of Empire Direct? Maybe it's the lesser of two evils.

[Simon Young]

Originally Posted by FuzzyinLondon

Well, I went into PRC yesterday. The guy there didn't know what I was talking about and the boss was enjoying having the bank holiday off apparently. The guy in there said it was standard for a Pioneer engineer to assess the set but that usually it should all happen much faster. The fact that Pioneer are involved may be to do with the terms of their five year warranty. This also worries me too. If something goes wrong with my 4280XD will it mean that I have to deal with Pioneer directly instead of Empire Direct? Maybe it's the lesser of two evils.

Ah well, thanks for trying! Consumer Direct informed me, however, that my contract is with PRC during the first twelve months - not to mention the fact that I reported the fault within 28 days of receiving the replacement set! It's really quite clear to me now. PRC have no choice but to refund my money. I have sent them a letter via recorded delivery. An engineer has seen the fault with his own eyes and agreed that it is distracting. If that isn't enough... well, small claims court it is.

[shrimp3r]

Originally Posted by Simon Young

Ah well, thanks for trying! Consumer Direct informed me, however, that my contract is with PRC during the first twelve months - not to mention the fact that I reported the fault within 28 days of receiving the replacement set! It's really quite clear to me now. PRC have no choice but to refund my money. I have sent them a letter via recorded delivery. An engineer has seen the fault with his own eyes and agreed that it is distracting. If that isn't enough... well, small claims court it is.

I can see that you're getting the hang of this Simon Retailers often try to bring the manufacturer into disputes like this - but as you know from talking to Consumer Direct, this is a matter between you and the retailer. After all, you gave your 1600 quid to PRC not Pioneer. When you get into these situations for the first time it can be quite confusing, but in reality it's simple - the retailer is fully responsible for the quality of the goods.

Mark Mac

[shrimp3r]

Originally Posted by Simon Young

Well, the engineers came round this morning. Nice couple of guys from PVC (Peterborough Video Service). No chit-chat, just came straight in and took a close look at the problem. After less than a minute of me demonstrating the fault, one of the guys said he could clearly see it. He was sitting quite close, so I suggested he sit in my normal viewing position (about seven feet away) from where he could see it even more clearly. He described it as being quite noticeable. His partner (the younger of the two) also said he could see it but wouldn't have had I not pointed it out. I explained that once you noticed it, it becomes impossible to ignore - especially if you're watching sport or playing some video game where the camera is constantly panning around. They both agreed wholeheartedly, and said it looked like a panel fault. They said they'd be making a report to Pioneer and would be in contact within a few days - at which point alarm bells started going off in my head. Why were Pioneer at all involved? Surely PRC should be the recipient of this info! I begin to wonder if PRC have just washed their hands of it and expect me to send it in for repair!

FWIW, I think you've cleared a major hurdle here, as you have two engineers who have actually seen your screen and concluded that he panel was faulty. Let's just hope that their written report reflects their comments. Not wishing to tempt fate I think you are on the home straight now. As soon as the engineer confirmed the dirty screen on my Pio 427, John Lewis immediately accepted his findings and issued a refund.

Mark Mac

[FuzzyinLondon]

Threaten to go to Watchdog and get Nicky Campbell on their asses Also, did the engineers that came to see you fill out a report and leave a copy with you? Might be worth faxing it or sending a copy of it in any dealings with PRC. Like you say, you're well within your right by law to ask for a refund. The engineer's report is further proof of this.

[Simon Young]

Originally Posted by shrimp3r

I can see that you're getting the hang of this Simon Retailers often try to bring the manufacturer into disputes like this - but as you know from talking to Consumer Direct, this is a matter between you and the retailer. After all, you gave your 1600 quid to PRC not Pioneer. When you get into these situations for the first time it can be quite confusing, but in reality it's simple - the retailer is fully responsible for the quality of the goods.

Thanks, I try! It really does feel quite empowering to gradually understand and begin to exercise your consumer rights. Why should we be made to feel like the bad guys in all this? We're talking about a lot of money here! I hope that PRC understand their responsibilities and act accordingly.

Originally Posted by shrimp3r

FWIW, I think you've cleared a major hurdle here, as you have two engineers who have actually seen your screen and concluded that he panel was faulty. Let's just hope that their written report reflects their comments. Not wishing to tempt fate I think you are on the home straight now. As soon as the engineer confirmed the dirty screen on my Pio 427, John Lewis immediately accepted his findings and issued a refund.

I hope you're right. They didn't write their report up immediately, so I just have a piece of paper with a job number and contact details. I trust they'll do the right thing and write an honest, unbiased report of the fault as they saw it. Whether PRC will acknowledge the report is another matter entirely but with any luck they won't be silly enough to take this further.

Originally Posted by FuzzyinLondon

Threaten to go to Watchdog and get Nicky Campbell on their asses Also, did the engineers that came to see you fill out a report and leave a copy with you? Might be worth faxing it or sending a copy of it in any dealings with PRC. Like you say, you're well within your right by law to ask for a refund. The engineer's report is further proof of this.

I'm afraid I don't think this particular dispute would make for great viewing!

[Digiman]

Sorry to hear about dirty screen. My 428 is a few days old and it suffers from it. I noticed it immediately but mine is not that bad and it certainly doesnt sound as bad as yours, Simon. I will let it settle in for a week or so.

My panasonic TV (pd30) had it. So did my second one. My third one didnt. It is sometimes easier to go for a full refund and buy elsewhere than trying to get them to replace and replace. Hopefully you wont need to.

Best of luck.

[Simon Young]

I just had a phone call from Peterborough Video Service to say that they have spoken to Pioneer, but that Pioneer are saying it is a characteristic of the set, not a fault. Big surprise. I told PVS that I couldn't care tuppence what Pioneer say as my contract is still with PRC. An engineer (two, actually) saw the fault and agreed it was distracting. I've asked PVS to send me a copy of the report the engineers made, and to send one to PRC also. Even if they aren't allowed to call it "faulty", anything which proves that it is flawed and therefore not of satisfactory quality will be enough to force PRC to give me a refund.

If they still don't, they will be breaking the law.

[shrimp3r]

Originally Posted by Simon Young

I just had a phone call from Peterborough Video Service to say that they have spoken to Pioneer, but that Pioneer are saying it is a characteristic of the set, not a fault. Big surprise. I told PVS that I couldn't care tuppence what Pioneer say as my contract is still with PRC. An engineer (two, actually) saw the fault and agreed it was distracting. I've asked PVS to send me a copy of the report the engineers made, and to send one to PRC also. Even if they aren't allowed to call it "faulty", anything which proves that it is flawed and therefore not of satisfactory quality will be enough to force PRC to give me a refund.

If they still don't, they will be breaking the law.

LOL - it's painful sometimes isn't it, I wouldn't expect anything less from Pioneer Anyway, good move getting the report - I can tell you're really getting your teeth into this Simon - go get em tiger.

Mark Mac

[Simon Young]

The saga continues...

Today I received a letter from PVS stating the following:

Upon examination of your television by our engineer, we find that the unit is working to the Manufacturer's specification. If you would like any further information we suggest you speak directly to Pioneer UK on 01753 789789.

Of course I phoned PVS straight away and complained that this letter did not reflect what their own engineers had said to me in person. I spoke to a very nice chap who informed me that because a lot of their business comes from Pioneer, they have to tow the company line. I explained once again that my contract was not with Pioneer, but with PRC and that it should be their duty to provide both satisfactory goods and satisfactory service. Eventually the guy agreed with me and said that, although 'satisfactory' is a subjective word, if I'm not happy with their goods/service PRC should be going out of their way to please me. He advised that I speak to Trading Standards and get them to recommend me a solicitor, saying that a solicitors letter will show that I am deadly serious. Apparently 9 times out of 10 this sorts the problem out.

Anyone able to recommend a decent (and cheap) solicitor who can write a letter to PRC on my behalf? I'm sick to the back teeth of this whole ordeal now - I just want it to be over so I can move on with looking at alternative plasmas.