[JethroUK]

Why ???

When any scart connection has enough pins to carry the world, why do we need yet 'another' type of connection

The only reason I can think of is that scart cables can now be had for £1 and they need to sell us some more wires @ £50 each

There's possibly some sheilding issues but nothing that would stand up to scrutiny

If they used scart connection, then apart from the obvious benefit of already having a wire, it would be easy to flick through and actually 'see' which gives the best connection, as indeed it already does with Compo vs RGB vs S-Video

Currently to try HDMI i have to buy 'yet another' lead for 90000000 Squiiiiiiiiillion £££££££pounds - connect the audio seperately (HDMI>DVI) with another gazillion wires - miss the first half an hour of the film switching the TV to all the different connections.....

...and for allllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll that - i can't tell the difference between that and RGB

[robin78]

All scart cables are not equal, using a £1 scart cable on a plasma will give inferior results.

scart vs component: With scart you can only use standard definition signals (576i) while with component you can also have HD definition (720p/1080i) The later gives (much) better results on HD material.

component vs hdmi/dvi, component is (like scart) analog while hdmi and dvi is digital. hdmi does carry audio as well, dvi not.

[JethroUK]

Originally Posted by robin78

All scart cables are not equal, using a £1 scart cable on a plasma will give inferior results..

Of course you can pay a squillion pounds for wires however they wrap em up (scart lead or otherwise) - if you want

Originally Posted by robin78

scart vs component: With scart you can only use standard definition signals (576i) while with component you can also have HD definition (720p/1080i) .

Yeah but why is my question? Scart has enough pins to carry 10 component signals

Originally Posted by robin78

component vs hdmi/dvi, component is (like scart) analog while hdmi and dvi is digital. hdmi does carry audio as well, dvi not.

Yeah but why is my question? One Scart has enough pins to carry 5 dvi signals + seperate 5 audio

[dan1979]

You can't just suddenly change the spec of an existing connection, imagine the mass confusions when different types aren't compatible.

Scart is too bulky as well so it's been replaced.

Over short distances there's no difference between HDMI cables so you don't need to spend much.

[stranger]

HDMI has been and is being touted as the best thing since sliced bread the REAL reason is that the studios want it, to control copy protection/copywrite.

[JethroUK]

Originally Posted by dan1979

You can't just suddenly change the spec of an existing connection, imagine the mass confusions when different types aren't compatible. ..

My point was - When you can drive a bus down a scart lead, and the whole world has 10 already, why change it in the first place?

Originally Posted by dan1979

Scart is too bulky as ...

I supose that's 'a possibilty' if you were to guess - but it's not a reason

[niceguy235uk]

I think you will also find that HDMI delivers an uncompressed digital signal straight from the disc to the display without the need for any processing, so, in theory, should give a better picture.

And of course, to control copyright.

[MAW]

There's no hope at all for you, jethro. Do you have radial tyres? Gas central heating? A PC? (obviously) If so why? Is a calculator and a typewriter not good enough? What's wrong with a coal fire? Or cross ply tyres? For that matter why not wooden wheels with iron tyres? Things move on, scart is plastic crap, at last we are ditching it. DVI and HDMI are affordable, do not require massively expensive leads, just adequate ones, unlike scart, which was incredibly hard to make well. £1 for a scart, you'd be getting something so nasty I could spot the difference on a 21" CRT, never mind a 42" plasma. I'm not the biggest fan of HDMI as such, but it's 10000% better than scart.

[stranger]

HDMI with a DVI type screw connection would be even better.

[robin78]

Originally Posted by JethroUK

When you can drive a bus down a scart lead, and the whole world has 10 already, why change it in the first place?

The scart plug is a standard designed to be able to connect devices without having knowledge of things. The scart standard does not permit the new signals, each pin is already assigned and has its own function because if you reassign the functions devices will not be compatible and people will get confused. The 21 pins are not even enough to carry all ' old' signals let alone new ones like digital audio and video.

Here are a couple of drawbacks of scart:

- SCART cannot carry both S-Video and RGB signals at the same time. due to lack of pins
- RGB connections are not bidirectional.due to lack of pins
- SCART is not designed to transmit digital video or audio signals.
- SCART is limited to two audio channels, meaning it cannot deliver surround sound with discrete surround channels, such as Dolby Digital or DTS.
- SCART connects are non-locking and are prone to falling off or getting loose, especially since the thick 21-wire cable is relatively heavy and often leaves the connector at a sideways angle. Loss of audio or video connection due to a loose SCART connector is relatively common.
(source Wikipedia)

The scart plug has been around for 25 years it served it purpose well but is now limiting the possibilities of modern equipment, it´s time to upgrade.

But if your happy with scart, by all means keep using it. You are the one that will be missing out on the new possibilities and improved quality.

[robin78]

Originally Posted by JethroUK

Yeah but why is my question? Scart has enough pins to carry 10 component signals

Nope, scart has only 21 pins you need 6 (3 signals, 3 grounds) for one component so the theoretical max would be 3 but your current scart leads however have only 5 shielded cables inside (actually those £1 does not include any shielding) so you can only transmit one component signal thru existing cables. (actually there are devices that permit component send thru scart)

[MAW]

actually there are devices that permit component send thru scart

Yes, there's one on my rack. I use a scart adapter with 3 phonos on the back though, and ditch the scart connection therefore at the earliest moment.

[JethroUK]

Originally Posted by stranger

HDMI has been and is being touted as the best thing since sliced bread ....

We are talking about 'wire' here, not wheels

[JethroUK]

Originally Posted by niceguy235uk

I think you will also find that HDMI delivers an uncompressed digital signal didda didda didaa.....

I'm not questioning the digital process - merely a peice of wire

[robin78]

Originally Posted by JethroUK

I'm not questioning the digital process - merely a peice of wire

But not all wires are equal, you can´t use a scart to power you dishwasher either. The cables inside the scart lead are not able to handle the power, nor are they able to transmit the digital signals of hdmi

[JethroUK]

Originally Posted by MAW

...Things move on, scart is plastic crap ....

Thanks for sharing that it explains it perfectly

I can tell you really understand cables & I am far wiser as a consequence

[JethroUK]

Thanks for trying guys - I've never seen so many excuses since I forgot to take my P.E. shorts to school he he he

I think it's safe for anyone to conclude that nobody has a clue why HDMI/DVI can not be transported via the Scart leads we already have

nearest i got was "scart leads are crap" ha ha ha ha

and consequently that it is no more than a multi-million dollar scam to sell moooooooooooooore cables

[JethroUK]

Originally Posted by robin78

But not all wires are equal...

Yup

Originally Posted by robin78

...The cables inside the scart lead are not able to handle the power....

ha ha ha - You're making this up as you go along

Originally Posted by robin78

.... nor are they able to transmit the digital signals of hdmi

ptttttt!

[JethroUK]

Originally Posted by MAW

..... ditch the scart connection therefore at the earliest moment.

Good idea - i can't imagine how we have suffered with RGB for so many year

[Kalos Geros]

Originally Posted by JethroUK

I think it's safe for anyone to conclude that nobody has a clue why HDMI/DVI can not be transported via the Scart leads we already have

This had already been answered: compatibility chaos. Imagine people connecting an analog CRT TV via SCART to a DVD player that sends DIGITAL RGB through it's SCART...I see lawsuits pouring in...other than this there is technically no reason why a SCARt couldn't pass digital signals...the only problem is that SCART's wires are complicated to shield unlike, say, component cables which carry their video through completely separate wires and are easy to shield well since they don't interact...of course with today's digital error correction SCART has no more trouble passing digital signals than an HDMI lead...also, I used dirt cheap SCART cables in my time and all had interfrence, ghosts and were disconnecting often...now I use Bandridge 10GBP SCART cables and none of teh above takes place...I don't see why so many people are on a crusade against SCART...

[MAW]

Jethro, you have no clue yourself why scart cannot be used, obviously. It's partly to do with the fact that scart is so lousy. Not the wire, but the plug. With analogue, a bad conncection gives you a degraded picture. Folks like yourself and other luddites, and the visually impaired, never really care or notice, one of the 2. With digital signals, if it drops the connection for a moment, it tries to correct the error. This will give you a more servere temporary picture breakdown. There is no real difference between the copper/silver in a scart to an HDMI, and yes, it has enough pins, but the plug and socket integrity is not up to the job. The wheel/tyre analagy is accurate. You can't safely drive a Ford Focus on crossplies these days, unless you keep below 50MPH on your snow tyres. The screens under discussion in this forum are more analagous to 3 litre lexus, BMW etc. I agree with you completely about high priced cables and snake oil, I have NEVER suggested to anyone to buy the most expensive cables they can afford, but they must be adequate. Don't make them the weakest link in your system, they will hold back the performance of the rest of the bits. Good digital cables are not expensive, and at short lengths can be very cheap. If you cannot understand this, I suggest going back to your Norwegian cave.

[JethroUK]

Originally Posted by Kalos Geros

... Imagine people connecting an analog CRT TV via SCART to a DVD player that sends DIGITAL RGB through it's SCART...

Fair point but that's already happening - scart can pass either Compo, RGB, Audio, Screen switching or S-Video - just like my NTL cable can send the whole world down the same cable simultaniously - to decide which is which both machines perform a simple 'hand-shaking' protocol and there's no reason HDMI can't do the same

Originally Posted by Kalos Geros

...other than this there is technically no reason why a SCARt couldn't pass digital signals......

At last, so it is just a money making scam then

Originally Posted by Kalos Geros

...the only problem is that SCART's wires are complicated to shield unlike, say, component cables which carry their video through completely separate wires......

Unlike an analogue signals, digital signals are checksummed for accuracy so loss (via shielding) is not an issue

Originally Posted by Kalos Geros

...now I use Bandridge 10GBP SCART cables and none of teh above takes place...I don't see why so many people are on a crusade against SCART...

Because the press tells them so

[MAW]

It's that very checking that will render the scart useless, it's not good enough.

[JethroUK]

Originally Posted by MAW

Jethro, you have no clue yourself why scart cannot be used...

Hence the post. I was hoping someone here might 'know'

Originally Posted by MAW

....It's partly to do with the fact that scart is so lousy....

So you said

Originally Posted by MAW

... a bad conncection gives you a degraded picture.......

Yeap

Originally Posted by MAW

...There is no real difference between the copper/silver in a scart to an HDMI, and yes, it has enough pins, but the plug and socket integrity is not up to the job....

So to summarise your expertise in the subject of HDMI cables "Scarts are crap"

Originally Posted by MAW

...If you cannot understand this..........

Oh I got it - "Scarts are crap" - Right!

You make it sooooo easy to understand

.

[MAW]

That's about it, in summary, yes. The plugs are cheap and nasty, they fall out, unless they are horizontal behind the flat screen, which makes them very hard to mount, and stand out from the wall a long way, negating the flat screen USP. HDMI is small, easy to run over longer distances (scart is, er, crap over more than a few metres)
However, as your manner is supercilious, and deliberately offensive, and plainly you have no kit which would benefit from HDMI, why bother. Bye.

[choddo2006]

ok so assuming that your new fandangled Digital SCART can handle the same digital audio and video as HDMI (10 DVI connections? Laughable. Single-link DVI uses 19 pins, has your SCART got 200? Dual-link uses 24.)

... then you'd have to be sure that it was the same on both ends, which means that you'd need a new marked (and ideally not plug-compatible just in case but that would blow the so-called cost savings so let's just pretend you'd never accidentally plug analog SCART into your new digital SCART) socket to be sure you weren't trying to plug in an analog connector to a digital one. That would allow you to re-use your huge existing capital investment in the wonders of SCART cables (grotesque and tumescently plugged as they are) that you seem so desperate to protect.

Now assuming you'd still want to use the old analog devices too, that means you need to buy a new SCART for that new connection. And since a good enough HDMI lead can be had for a little over £5 and a good shielded SCART costs a minimum of £15, then I know which I'd rather have.

And that's not even getting into the fact that HDMI is a global standard, bringing down costs through scale, where SCART was clearly the mad ravings of a few Europeans after too much free vin at the Paris Electronics Expo one year, which noone else in the world wanted to touch with a bargepole.

[Chester]

Nobody mentioned consumer drive...

When designers look at what criteria should be satisfied by their prototypes, they often look at shortcomings of existing equipment. So, ask Joe Public. The reason why Triumph's Rocket III is a success (they can't make 'em fast enough!) is because they asked the end market what they wanted in a bike.

And that happens in AV as well. Chap with his clipboard is there to gather thoughts. Most people can't give up 30 seconds of their time, others might give up half a day to write down a load of nonsense, and through the mess, a solution can be found.

The vast majority opinion here is SCART is rubbish for physical and electrical reasons. It's cumbersome and unreliable. So I sit hear tapping away this stuff praising design teams along the way, when some numpty comes up with HDMI, er, 1.1, 1.2... And another numpty comes up with a series of seriously heavy HDMI leads that cause exactly the same problems as bulky SCART leads. Have we not learned!?!

Some people have already suggested that HDMI should incorporate a secured plug design, say like DVI with thumbscrews. Fantastic, not a new idea as computer connections have been doing that for over half a century. Why couldn't this be incorporated in the first place? Or something like a spring-clip mechanism, like you get on some external SCA80 computer cables?

Well, I think that we have all the answers, the examples above show we have the design repertoire and have achieved specifications to meet and even exceed given criteria. So why don't we design a future proof cable ready to transmit signals we know about today, and those we will in 10 years time, securely, reliably, and simply? For the same reason that the electric light bulb can be made to last forever, once you've saturated the market, it just ticks over making no money.

There will be a successor to HDMI, and it too will be superseded. They all will have flaws. Purposefully!

[JethroUK]

Originally Posted by choddo2006

....And that's not even getting into the fact that HDMI is a global standard, bringing down costs through scale, where SCART was clearly the mad ravings of a few Europeans after too much free vin at the Paris Electronics Expo one year, which noone else in the world wanted to touch with a bargepole.....

I didn't realise HDMI was international standard and scart was only European - that's almost a valid reason for switching cables - more valid than just saying 'scarts are crap' anyways

[MAW]

For the rest of us, that was so obvious we didn't point it out. No Yank or Japanese kit has scarts, they used s-video and component via phonos or BNC (my favourite connector) instead. Scart is more properly known as Peritel, designed by a frenchman, as pointed out quite early. BNC is the bayonet style, push and twist the locking ring connector. Never drops off, 75 Ohm thoughout for video, it's used for all high end kit still, and can transmit digital video in the form of SDI, serial digital interface. Unfortunately that is costly to implement, though the cables are cheap and easy to make yourself! HDMI is a con in as far as we are sold it as the new high quality interface, but it's actually more to do with copy protection, and is insisted upon by the Hollywood studios. It's not the AV industry, that';s why I'm so insistent that you are wrong, it's not me or my business area that's doing this to you. We were happy with DVI, and SDI for the specialist stuff. But HDMI is not expensive, and it is genuine progress over scart.

[Kalos Geros]

BNC is a professional connection not designed to be used in a home but in a studio, an edit room, places where it doesn't matter if there are many and how awkward they look...SCART was designed to do many things at once with home equipment...just imagine 21 BNC cables behind your TV stand...I also wouldn't praise the Americans and the Japanese for using S-video or component...both actually transfer signals inferior to RGB (SCART) since both are "compressed"...