[gizlaroc]

Originally Posted by scottthehat

how are any of the warms close to d65 (which is the target to aim for is it not) i would of thought that warms and 2 are around the 3500k mark are they not.
please explain a little,

D65 is very yellow.

You need to use Warm for a good week, you will then find normal far too cold and odd looking.

[scottthehat]

Originally Posted by gizlaroc

D65 is very yellow.

You need to use Warm for a good week, you will then find normal far too cold and odd looking.

Is it i thought it was closest to natural daylight whitish light.
Also how comes warm makes white look yellow. Where as standards whites are white.

[gizlaroc]

You brain converts it to white because it expects to see white.

Get a calibrated camera and a calibrate screen, point the camera out of your window and you will see that it is pretty much the same, put the set to Normal and you will see whites are now too blue.

[scottthehat]

Originally Posted by gizlaroc

You brain converts it to white because it expects to see white.

Get a calibrated camera and a calibrate screen, point the camera out of your window and you will see that it is pretty much the same, put the set to Normal and you will see whites are now too blue.

I own my own photography company and shoot alot of weedings and also alot of studio portrait work, and I also do ALOT of editing photos and my monitors are calibrated with spyder 4 pro which sets 6500k white point(which I believe is the standard for video and photo editing) and my prints come back spot on from the internet company i use,
yet when i set my plasma up(with spyder 4 hd tv calibration software) and put a photo on the plasma and my pc monitors, well lets just say the bride wouldnt be happy if i edited my photos with my plasma as the colours would be way off.
my brain sees white on my pc monitors and with warm set on my plasma most defo not white.

[gizlaroc]

If you have calibrated it correctly it is..............correct.

I find normal far too cold, and find warm much closer, but then I have been looking at calibrated plasmas for 12 years, so maybe I am just used to that?

[scottthehat]

I have never had a tv calibrated always trusted my eyes but have had my pc monitors calibrated for the last ten years . i just can understand that warm which must be around 3500k is near to calibration but there you go,

also i dont find that cinema have an ogange cast and look more like what i see from standard mode.

heres some pic not the best 1 with standard 1 with warm 2

any way sorry to the op i will stop posting about this now.

[gizlaroc]

Yeah that top one looks closest.
The bottom one looks far too cold.

This was my 500M calibrated or warm, can't remember now......

[gizlaroc]

Warm on my Panasonic was around 6300k.

[scottthehat]

maybe the thing im missing is a calibrated white balance as the spyder software doesnt do the whit balance it just recomends warm 2 as closest.

[gizlaroc]

When I used the spyder I just used the sensor and different software, but that was a few years back now.

[Scooby2000]

Interesting chaps but maybe best discussed in the owner threads or a new thread.

[stucarblne]

Anyway - all this Sammy from a Kuro stuff.

I have seen a lot plasmas over the years. And my KRP is NOT soft - and NEITHER is it noisy. In fact as far as plasma goes in general it is EXTREMELY clean. Lol.

[gizlaroc]

I have just gone from a VT30 back to a 5090.

Firstly, this is the cleanest 9G Pioneer I have seen, the others I have had have been a lot noisier.
Edit: Actually, I am now using a dedicated mains spur this time round and a Furman Mains Conditioner, maybe that is helping??

The first thing that struck me was motion.
For all the criticism the Panasonics get with 50hz motion I have to say the Pioneer is slightly disappointing in this respect, it almost smears like an LCD. The Panny may have the slightest judder, but it seems to have a much better motion resolution.
Now I thought this when I first got my LX508, but after a week or so forgot about it/got used to it, and already a couple of days in with this I am started to no longer notice it.

The other thing is how much softer it is, my wife said that it almost looks like it has a soft filter on some stuff. I hadn't really thought of it like that but do agree. This is actually not a bad thing and gives a really pleasing image, but for someone who has been used to looking at a Panny or Samsung I can see why first impressions of the Pioneers are 'soft'.
Again, after 2 nights already used to it.

SD is the only area where I feel the Samsung has the edge, I thought the SD feeds on the Samsung E8000 looked superb, I mean genuinely superb to the point where I would happily watch SD from its internal tuner, where as on this it is immediately obvious that it is SD and it looks quite ropey.


I don't think think you would be disappointed at all going to an E8000, however I do think it may take a week or two to get used to the differences.

[rumblesushi]

giz, good points about Pioneer, I agree with you on most of the points including the softness.

It's strange, LG Plasmas don't have a great rep around these parts, but they do remind me of a Pioneer with much worse blacks, in that they always produce a pleasing, natural image, good colours, albeit on the soft side, but that's probably a big reason of WHY the image looks nice and natural, because it is softer, and not overly sharp looking, LCD style.

I agree about SD, on my D8000 it's the best I've ever seen I think. As clean as an LG but a bit sharper.

How do you find motion on the Samsung compares to the Pioneer? And it's been a while since I've viewed anything on a Pioneer, how big a difference do you think the black levels are, by eye, in normal evening viewing?

[gizlaroc]

The motion I prefer on the Samsung, I think.
I have always thought the Samsungs seem to do motion better than the Panasonics and don't think the motion on the Pioneers is all that, it is very different to the Samsung.

I wouldn't say any of them are bad, they all just take time to get used to, go from a Pioneer to a Panny and you probably think the Panny has judder, go from a Panny to the Pioneer and you probably think it smears.
The Samsung seems to have no smearing and zero judder, but can look a little bit processed.

The black levels on the Samsung are fine imho, they are not as good but the right side of acceptable, and with the cell adjust you can get the contrast better and a more pleasing short term image imho.
Not saying that it is better than the Pioneer, but I think it is an image that impresses you quicker and one you can get used to quicker.
If it had the same blacks as the VT30 even it would be the screen to own imho.

Friend has the 59" D6900 and I think that is an absolute cracker!!
The E8000 seems to better that again and I would happily own one.

[stucarblne]

Originally Posted by gizlaroc

I have just gone from a VT30 back to a 5090.

Firstly, this is the cleanest 9G Pioneer I have seen, the others I have had have been a lot noisier.
Edit: Actually, I am now using a dedicated mains spur this time round and a Furman Mains Conditioner, maybe that is helping??

The first thing that struck me was motion.
For all the criticism the Panasonics get with 50hz motion I have to say the Pioneer is slightly disappointing in this respect, it almost smears like an LCD. The Panny may have the slightest judder, but it seems to have a much better motion resolution.
Now I thought this when I first got my LX508, but after a week or so forgot about it/got used to it, and already a couple of days in with this I am started to no longer notice it.

The other thing is how much softer it is, my wife said that it almost looks like it has a soft filter on some stuff. I hadn't really thought of it like that but do agree. This is actually not a bad thing and gives a really pleasing image, but for someone who has been used to looking at a Panny or Samsung I can see why first impressions of the Pioneers are 'soft'.
Again, after 2 nights already used to it.

SD is the only area where I feel the Samsung has the edge, I thought the SD feeds on the Samsung E8000 looked superb, I mean genuinely superb to the point where I would happily watch SD from its internal tuner, where as on this it is immediately obvious that it is SD and it looks quite ropey.

I don't think think you would be disappointed at all going to an E8000, however I do think it may take a week or two to get used to the differences.

I believe that the conditioning you are using is "probaly" helping...

Some folk might laugh at that but that is their opinion and they are entitled to it. But IMHO it helps, as does decent cables - power cables included. I also make sure none of my power cables are touching video cables - as well as making sure nothing is kinked or tangled. I have gone to the extreme measures to keep cabling apart with rolled balls of sticky masking tape recently lol.

I always thought motion was quite good on kuros, making sure the drive mode is correct and film mode off for example if no film is on. Never could see it smear like an LCD personally.

The KRP is a bit sharper than an LX but not a huge amount. But i understand what you mean about the SD. Sammy's have always displayed nice sharp and pretty clean SD - LCD's especially but that ain't relevant to this thread as such. Panny's more recent plasma screens do decent SD also...

[gizlaroc]

Originally Posted by stucarblne

I always thought motion was quite good on kuros, making sure the drive mode is correct and film mode off for example if no film is on. Never could see it smear like an LCD personally.

The KRP is a bit sharper than an LX but not a huge amount.

Motion is good, extremely smooth pans, but there is a slight smearing. However, in the same go the smearing means there is absolutely zero phosphors trails compared with the Panny, I think it is a clever was of hiding them.
The Phosphor trails I learnt to ignore over a few weeks with the VT30, but the smearing my brain is already removing after only 2 days.


Now, but this LX5090 is definitely, 100%, without a doubt, sharper than the KRP-500 I had before. Also less noisy which probably accounts for it.
I actually let the 500M go because I simply couldn't live with how soft it was compared to my PHD8, this is soft, but not as soft.

[stucarblne]

Originally Posted by gizlaroc

Motion is good, extremely smooth pans, but there is a slight smearing. However, in the same go the smearing means there is absolutely zero phosphors trails compared with the Panny, I think it is a clever was of hiding them.
The Phosphor trails I learnt to ignore over a few weeks with the VT30, but the smearing my brain is already removing after only 2 days.

Now, but this LX5090 is definitely, 100%, without a doubt, sharper than the KRP-500 I had before. Also less noisy which probably accounts for it.
I actually let the 500M go because I simply couldn't live with how soft it was compared to my PHD8, this is soft, but not as soft.

Don't like to say it - but perhaps your M was faulty in some way ?...

I have never heard anyone mention that the LX was sharper than a 500/600.

And it has been mentioned before that some were cleaner than others while some were quiter panel buzz wise. I think it was the luck of the draw from screen to screen - but personally i dont think that ever should have been the case with something so expensive -LX or KRP. Where was the basic quality control ?

[CAS FAN]

I've got a krp 500a and there's very little noise at all in the picture. It just plugs straight into a wall socket and everything is connected with cheap hdmi cables and a cheap service cable (bust the original one when I lifted it off the wall with the cable still attached doh!).

[stucarblne]

Originally Posted by CAS FAN

I've got a krp 500a and there's very little noise at all in the picture. It just plugs straight into a wall socket and everything is connected with cheap hdmi cables and a cheap service cable (bust the original one when I lifted it off the wall with the cable still attached doh!).

My 500a i upgraded all my cables - including the displayport and got decent results. Although i would never have known the difference if i hadn't to be honest, and like your screen mine was always clean enough to begin with. Basic power conditioning was only ever for peace of mind. This is my 3rd 500A - the 1st had cosmetic damage from the factory, 2nd had a big stuck pixel that couldn't be cleared and the one i have now developed the infamous red black until i reset/adjusted. This was from two different dealers i must stress. But all three were just as clean as the one before

[gizlaroc]

Originally Posted by stucarblne

Don't like to say it - but perhaps your M was faulty in some way ?...

I have never heard anyone mention that the LX was sharper than a 500/600.

Nah, I saw loads of them back when they were released, mine was better than many out there for noise, and the noisier they were the softer they looked.

Simply setting the input to PC mode got rid of the noise and made the picture razor shape. But it converted 50hz to 60hz which made it unusable for pal land.

[gizlaroc]

Also worth noting, the VT30 was just as noisy with the same sort of dithering going on.

But I was used the ultra clean, in the bright areas anyway, Panasonic Pro panels.

[stucarblne]

Originally Posted by gizlaroc

Also worth noting, the VT30 was just as noisy with the same sort of dithering going on.

But I was used the ultra clean, in the bright areas anyway, Panasonic Pro panels.

Guess it's true then that some have less dither than others.

There is a conditioner out there that has a special notch filter designed especially for the additional noise that plasma produces

[gizlaroc]

Really?

That sounds interesting, do you know which one it is?

[Chelsea_Fan]

There are different dither mode options in the service menu and also options to reduce RFI from the TV. Maybe some TVs have these enabled and some don't.

Mains conditioners generally are a waste of time. They often have a degree of transient protection in them and some noddy attempt at RF filtering.

Besides, dithering is done with a mathematical algorithm to enhance colour depth. These TVs get their colour depth by mathematically spreading the error in colour for any pixel around its neighbouring pixels and also spreads the error in the time domain. So our eyes get deceived into seeing the correct colours (at a distance) with the penalty of a slightly noisier and softer image.

How is a mains conditioner going to affect this process? The TV is MEANT to have dither. It is there by design.

Like I said you can adjust settings in the service menu to affect the dither but I suspect the image will look dire if you turned off the dither completely. The option is probably only there for faultfinding or for removal of local RFI from the TV in stubborn cases.

Plasmas generate lots of RF noise across the MW and SW bands so I assume the noise reduction options in the service menu are there to try and reduce local RFI problems for any nearby radio receivers.

[stucarblne]

Originally Posted by gizlaroc

Really?

That sounds interesting, do you know which one it is?

Can't remember exactly but i think it's an isol of sorts. I read something months ago in HCC about it, and it said the results were more pronounced at home rather than the in house reference system

[stucarblne]

Isol 8 powerline 1080 to be exact.

Got the mag in front of me now. It says the notch filter syncs specifically to that plasma noise.

And it has been hyper tailored for plasma.

Chelsea_fan

I know what you are trying to say, but things shouldn't be knocked until they have been tried - i don't think it was ever implied that it was perfect. Only that it helps

[Chelsea_Fan]

Originally Posted by stucarblne

Can't remember exactly but i think it's an isol of sorts. I read something months ago in HCC about it, and it said the results were more pronounced at home rather than the in house reference system

Someone is trying to sell you something. Either directly or indirectly.

A reviewer probably can subject a domestic appliance like a TV to lots of deliberate interference on the mains inlet and demonstrate some kind of benefit with a conditioner.

But does that mean you see the same benefit in your own home with a typical mains supply?

I don't think so...

[rumblesushi]

Chelsea fan knows the score, dithering is simply a CPU run algorithm that spreads RGB values across neighbouring pixels to produce a greater colour range, obviously nothing is going to change that algorithm, no mains conditioner or whatever.

However, despite that, my second D8000 has noticeably less dithering than my first. Strange as it may sound, it's true, even my girlfriend noticed.

How can this be? Does the dithering look less somehow, as some panels perhaps have slightly different phosphors etc?

[stucarblne]

Yes panels do vary from one to the next, especially plasma it would seem, all my 500’s been very clean - albeit not perfect, every one been faulty in it's own way :-(

Chelsea_Fan

Also there was no mention in the mag of dither. They might have been getting at that i don't know...

What would your opinion be on complete power regeneration in the home ?...