[judethedude]

Originally Posted by bumtious

It is upto you how the ambient light in your room is set.

A TV is NOT designed to be viewed in total darkness, they never have.

If you are setting one up properly (ISF) there should be a degree of ambient light in the room, this is due to the way the eye should be made to react for fatigue free viewing.

Pioneers stance seems to be that if the level of light in your room is too low than you may see this red effect, due to the extremely low idling level of these sets. This is of course crap BUT they have a point, IE used in recommended room conditions there is no issue, which is why it could be a difficult thing for them to be made to deal with.

Does not mean that it should not be dealt with though.

I have white LED backlight set at 6500K (supposedly). It certainly makes viewing a lot more enjoyable (for me) than in a completely dark room.

Before I bought my set, I remember reading many favorable comments from people along the lines of "the blacks disappear into the bezel making the screen indistiguishable from the surround" and this is what I "naively" expected.

The red tinge to black on my set is uniform across the whole screen if viewed in a dark room and I remember calling Pioneer about it a couple of years ago and was told "it's normal for the technology".

[Chelsea_Fan]

Originally Posted by judethedude

Before I bought my set, I remember reading many favorable comments from people along the lines of "the blacks disappear into the bezel making the screen indistiguishable from the surround" and this is what I "naively" expected.

That's because the AV world is poorly regulated wrt technical issues. People can claim what they like and there's plenty of willing owners who are more than happy to repeat that these TVs have deep blacks.

They haven't. They never have. Just put one next to a decent CRT in a darkened room and be prepared to be shocked at the washed out plasma on dark scenes.

Mine has shown the red tint a couple of times. But it also went through a green phase just after I bought it. That was the reason I hacked into the ISF menus to allow me to get more adjustment options on the TV.

Mine is usually dark grey on dark scenes but I think the uniformity of the grey is affected by previous content and possibly panel temperature.

The red tint issue appears to be a growing problem amongst owners. Mines only just over 3000 hours old and I've always run it on low contrast. I've definitely seen the red tint but it really was just fleeting and only for a few days. It went away without any adjustment so I'm not sure why it appeared unless maybe the TV was affected by temperature on those days?

It's a very good TV but it's not as perfect as the hype suggests

[stucarblne]

Originally Posted by Chelsea_Fan

That's because the AV world is poorly regulated wrt technical issues. People can claim what they like and there's plenty of willing owners who are more than happy to repeat that these TVs have deep blacks.

They haven't. They never have. Just put one next to a decent CRT in a darkened room and be prepared to be shocked at the washed out plasma on dark scenes.

Mine has shown the red tint a couple of times. But it also went through a green phase just after I bought it. That was the reason I hacked into the ISF menus to allow me to get more adjustment options on the TV.

Mine is usually dark grey on dark scenes but I think the uniformity of the grey is affected by previous content and possibly panel temperature.

The red tint issue appears to be a growing problem amongst owners. Mines only just over 3000 hours old and I've always run it on low contrast. I've definitely seen the red tint but it really was just fleeting and only for a few days. It went away without any adjustment so I'm not sure why it appeared unless maybe the TV was affected by temperature on those days?

It's a very good TV but it's not as perfect as the hype suggests

They are anything but perfect - but you can't really fairly compare the black level to that of a CRT because they are not CRT obviously. Just the best consumer wise that we can have at this point in time is all really.

[Evil_Stewie]

Whats the cost to ISF the lx5090, located in NW London.

[Bumtious @ TPS]

Originally Posted by Evil_Stewie

Whats the cost to ISF the lx5090, located in NW London.

You need to contact the calibrators directly. Most travel.

[kevhaywire]

Originally Posted by Chelsea_Fan

They haven't. They never have. Just put one next to a decent CRT in a darkened room and be prepared to be shocked at the washed out plasma on dark scenes.

Cobblers. My old 32PW9509 (Philips Pixel Plus) was a highly regarded CRT in it's day, but that never produced true blacks either. The Kuro, to my eyes, is the blackest Television I've ever seen.

[A.I.]

Originally Posted by Kev12

Jesus......

Yes my son. How can I help?

Only having a bit of fun Kev12 - do you remember fun? Ease up

[Chelsea_Fan]

Originally Posted by kevhaywire

Cobblers. My old 32PW9509 (Philips Pixel Plus) was a highly regarded CRT in it's day, but that never produced true blacks either. The Kuro, to my eyes, is the blackest Television I've ever seen.

Ah but I didn't say CRT produces true blacks either, it's just closer to black on dark scenes.

Also if you think the kuro is the blackest TV you have ever seen then maybe you need to see more CRT TVs
Maybe also some decent backlit LED TVs with local dimming? I've not judged the local dimming LEDs myself but they are supposed to be very good on black level.


CRT is well known to give better black levels than plasma. Obviously if the CRT is poorly designed or adjusted then things are different.

I only have two old CRTs here now. One is an ancient 1990s Sony Trinitron and the black level on dark scenes is notably better than the 9G kuro. The CRT does however, struggle to maintain black level on high contrast scenes due to its limited contrast ratio if there's lots of bright content. However, when it matters, on low contrast night scenes it outclasses the plasma for black level.

[stucarblne]

Originally Posted by Chelsea_Fan

Ah but I didn't say CRT produces true blacks either, it's just closer to black on dark scenes.

Also if you think the kuro is the blackest TV you have ever seen then maybe you need to see more CRT TVs
Maybe also some decent backlit LED TVs with local dimming? I've not judged the local dimming LEDs myself but they are supposed to be very good on black level.

CRT is well known to give better black levels than plasma. Obviously if the CRT is poorly designed or adjusted then things are different.

I only have two old CRTs here now. One is an ancient 1990s Sony Trinitron and the black level on dark scenes is notably better than the 9G kuro. The CRT does however, struggle to maintain black level on high contrast scenes due to its limited contrast ratio if there's lots of bright content. However, when it matters, on low contrast night scenes it outclasses the plasma for black level.

I don't know why we are having a discussion about CRT on a plasma thread to be honest. KRP's especially can go very very very dark.

[Kev12]

Originally Posted by A.I.

Yes my son. How can I help?

Only having a bit of fun Kev12 - do you remember fun? Ease up

Fun? I'm a Leeds fan.

[Kev12]

Chelsea,

Where can we go and see one of these fabled CRT tellies?

[Chelsea_Fan]

Originally Posted by Kev12

Chelsea,

Where can we go and see one of these fabled CRT tellies?

Hi Kev. The issue that kicked this off is that the kuro black level was reported to not match the bezel in a dark room. This is correct.

A decent CRT is better in this respect as long as the screen content is mostly dark. If theres's lots of bright content then the CRT can suffer from flare that degrades the black. i.e. the black bars can turn grey on bright scenes.

But on dark scenes where you really need the black level a CRT is better.

But don't take my word for it, do some research on the subject if it bothers you

[Kev12]

I just want to know where they all are. No shop ive been in in the last few years sell em, so in effect they're dead. Just like pio plasmas.

Why do you insist on comparing a dead technology with a defunct tv brand? If you go back through your posts on this, it borders on the obsessive. It bothers you more than anyone else.

[Chelsea_Fan]

Hi Kev, can you please define what you mean by borders on the obsessive?

I skimmed back through my last 50 posts and this takes me back to last September and (ignoring these ones) I only see a couple about CRT black level.

Also, my activity level on the forum is listed as 2.7% and this seems a lot lower than most people?

Please define what you mean by obsessive?

Thanks

[Glidos]

Just a little ambient back lighting, and both your Kuros and your CRTs will give 'seemingly' perfect blacks. Sticking a little 8W 6500K flourescent light, with high frequency bias, behind my 5090 was the best thing I ever did for improving picture. Made the blacks very striking and seemed to enhance the realism of colours.

And can we stop telling each other what is a legitimate topic! Don't we get enough of that from the admins?!

[Kev12]

Originally Posted by Chelsea_Fan

Hi Kev, can you please define what you mean by borders on the obsessive?

I skimmed back through my last 50 posts and this takes me back to last September and (ignoring these ones) I only see a couple about CRT black level.

Also, my activity level on the forum is listed as 2.7% and this seems a lot lower than most people?

Please define what you mean by obsessive?

Thanks

You've been comparing CRT blacks to the Kuro ever since you got your 5090.

I didn't check your posts, ive got a good memory.
I'm not really that bothered, it's just that I can't seem to recall what a good CRT produces, it's been that long.

[Chelsea_Fan]

You've been comparing CRT blacks to the Kuro ever since you got your 5090.

Let me explain because I think you need to give me a break here. I own and watch a CRT and I also own and watch a 9G plasma.

It's inevitable that I will make comparisons between the two.

The fact that I've only made about 50 posts in the last nine months (according to the drop down gizmo under my user name) and only a handful of them are about CRT black levels is enough to rule me out of being obsessive about it

[Kev12]

I'm going back a bit further than last September.

Let's just leave it, I'm bored replying to you now.

[Glidos]

It was how good my old CRT was that forced me to buy a Kuru. My first plasma was a Pany G20. It was so so much worse than my CRT. Bought it for £1,100, sold it about 6 months later for about £650. I can still see a few faults in the Kuru that my old CRT didn't show, but overall the Kuru kills it.

[Chauvinnais]

Originally Posted by Chelsea_Fan

Let me explain because I think you need to give me a break here. I own and watch a CRT and I also own and watch a 9G plasma.

It's inevitable that I will make comparisons between the two.

The fact that I've only made about 50 posts in the last nine months (according to the drop down gizmo under my user name) and only a handful of them are about CRT black levels is enough to rule me out of being obsessive about it

I've done a bit of searching of my own and cannot establish with any great certainty the condition of being obsessive about not being obsessive. Therefore you can be as obsessive about not being obsessive as you like withthout fear of ever being labelled obsessive.

As for the good old days? They were definitely better imho. Even when teles had vertical hold.

[stucarblne]

Originally Posted by Chauvinnais

I've done a bit of searching of my own and cannot establish with any great certainty the condition of being obsessive about not being obsessive. Therefore you can be as obsessive about not being obsessive as you like withthout fear of ever being labelled obsessive.

As for the good old days? They were definitely better imho. Even when teles had vertical hold.

All good points imho.

But remember CRT was a much more established older technology than plasma was/is.

And let's not forget that these 9G's are basically four years old now - so still very impressive nonetheless.

[Chauvinnais]

Originally Posted by stucarblne

All good points imho.

But remember CRT was a much more established older technology than plasma was/is.

And let's not forget that these 9G's are basically four years old now - so still very impressive nonetheless.

My issue with CRT technology was not the reproduction of the image per se, rather it was the limitation on screen size. Rear projector utilising 3 gun crt technology was great if you could live in the sweet spot - calibration then was usually an issue of geometry - and a service would always involve de-gauzing. Happily, in the round, the products have improved overall and one product that remains head and shoulders above it's peers is the Pioneer KRP.

[Chelsea_Fan]

Originally Posted by Chauvinnais

I've done a bit of searching of my own and cannot establish with any great certainty the condition of being obsessive about not being obsessive. Therefore you can be as obsessive about not being obsessive as you like withthout fear of ever being labelled obsessive.

As for the good old days? They were definitely better imho. Even when teles had vertical hold.

Also, I've only been obsessive about not being obsessive since 10:58 this morning

[Inferno]

Originally Posted by Chelsea_Fan

Let me explain because I think you need to give me a break here. I own and watch a CRT and I also own and watch a 9G plasma.

It's inevitable that I will make comparisons between the two.

The fact that I've only made about 50 posts in the last nine months (according to the drop down gizmo under my user name) and only a handful of them are about CRT black levels is enough to rule me out of being obsessive about it

Chels, you go on and on and on at every single given opportunity about the black level on a crt to the point of ad nauseam , its so .

I owned a Panasonic quintrix (which is still alive at my friends) and its black was not as good as my krp and if it was i would still own it, and yes some times my black borders are as black as the bezel without any back lighting.

Wait for it .................................................. ......................... .

[stucarblne]

Lol

[stranger]

Originally Posted by Inferno

Chels, you go on and on and on at every single given opportunity about the black level on a crt to the point of ad nauseam , its so .



Wait for it .................................................. ......................... .

Be fair, he's only gone on about it since the day he got his 9G (which he's never really liked imo)

[Glidos]

Originally Posted by Inferno

and yes some times my black borders are as black as the bezel without any back lighting.

That would be with a little front lighting then: i.e, there'll be some part of the screen that is bright enough to stop your eyes adjusting to the point where they can distinguish the border from the bezel.

Anyway, what Chelsea_Fan says is correct, CRT is capable of darker blacks than Plasma. Not all CRTs have better blacks than all Plasmas obviously, but as a technology CRT doesn't have the limitation that Plasma has: Plasma cells have to be kept primed to work properly, and that makes them produce a little light. With a CRT the electron beam can be turned completely off, leaving just the phosphor afterglow.

The point is moot, in any case. Kurus get so close, that you hardly ever can actually see the difference, especially if you have a bit of ambient lighting.

[middleweight]

Originally Posted by Glidos

That would be with a little front lighting then: i.e, there'll be some part of the screen that is bright enough to stop your eyes adjusting to the point where they can distinguish the border from the bezel.

Anyway, what Chelsea_Fan says is correct, CRT is capable of darker blacks than Plasma. Not all CRTs have better blacks than all Plasmas obviously, but as a technology CRT doesn't have the limitation that Plasma has: Plasma cells have to be kept primed to work properly, and that makes them produce a little light. With a CRT the electron beam can be turned completely off, leaving just the phosphor afterglow.

The point is moot, in any case. Kurus get so close, that you hardly ever can actually see the difference, especially if you have a bit of ambient lighting.

whats a kurus

[Chelsea_Fan]

some times my black borders are as black as the bezel without any back lighting.

So are the blacks on my crappy LCD monitor if there's plenty of contrast on the display. But give it a dark scene in a dark room and that black level is found out to be grey.

I have a CRT here and a 9G plasma and the blacks on dark scenes are better on the CRT. If I said otherwise I'd be lying. I have no reason to lie as I own both TVs and have no brand loyalty to either.

It would be great if the plasma was blacker (on dark scenes) but it isn't. If I lied and said it was the other way around and said it twice as often I expect nobody would bat an eyelid

[Chelsea_Fan]

Originally Posted by Glidos

That would be with a little front lighting then: i.e, there'll be some part of the screen that is bright enough to stop your eyes adjusting to the point where they can distinguish the border from the bezel.

Anyway, what Chelsea_Fan says is correct, CRT is capable of darker blacks than Plasma. Not all CRTs have better blacks than all Plasmas obviously, but as a technology CRT doesn't have the limitation that Plasma has: Plasma cells have to be kept primed to work properly, and that makes them produce a little light. With a CRT the electron beam can be turned completely off, leaving just the phosphor afterglow.

The point is moot, in any case. Kurus get so close, that you hardly ever can actually see the difference, especially if you have a bit of ambient lighting.

Hi Gildos thanks for that

I'm not sure what model my Sony CRT is but I think it is one of the 'trinitron black' range from the 1990's if that helps anyone understand my experience at all. I have also adjusted it (hopefully correctly) for optimum black level and I've done the same on the plasma.

The point is moot, in any case. Kurus get so close, that you hardly ever can actually see the difference, especially if you have a bit of ambient lighting.

This could be why there is some confusion as all my life my family always watched TV in a darkened room whenever possible. It helps with the sense of immersion in the movie and backlighting kills this for me. So maybe I see the difference more than others.