[dbond]

After 4 weeks of not having my TV, they are returning it without doing anything.

I sent the TV 4 weeks ago, and around 2 weeks after I got an email saying that pioneer were not going to cover it under warranty and its normal. There explination is as follows:

The phospor in the panel is slightly changing over years of usage. This causes the black level to slightly change over the years (we noticed this on our screen with 11 000 hours as well). This is not a defect, any screen made out of phospor (CRT and PDP) will change over time. For plasma it's determined that the phospor brightness will be half after 60000 hours of usage. Since the black levels of our 9th generation are very black, you can notice this phospor change relatively early (other brand plasma's which don't have such deep black levels suffer the same phospor effect, but you won't notice it because the black levels are much lighter).

The black levels are created by the reset voltages: all cells in a glass panel get the same discharge energy from the reset voltage and the light emitting of R,G, B. If the coloured phospor does not discharge equilly during this reset voltage, you'll get a coloured tint.
During a brainstorm I was considering whether an isf calibration would make a difference but this won't change anything since calibration can't influence the reset voltages.

to which I replied

Thank you for your reply, I understand that there would be wear/decay through usage, reducing the overall brightnessof the panel. With none uniform wear, I can see that there could be a tintin different colours, due to the different wear rates (which could be compensated for via calibration).This I would imagine would have been profiled and compensated for through the panel driver, increasing the voltage at different rates per phosphor over time.

What I really don't find acceptable is that a panel that has essentially been advertised and named for it's deep black levels, at just under 1/6 of its half life, would no longer be able to produce black, or even a very dark grey. This along with the apparent increase in brightness in the 'blacks' (or should that be red). From your explanation, this problem would be more visible and also quicker to appear due to the black levels is not a good reason. If that is so, what would be the point in purchasing it based upon its black levels if it wouldn't be able to produce them for 1/6 of the expected life. How red will this be in the next year or two at its current rate?

This TV, when it was in production had a price premium, due to it 'black' levels, do you really think that this is acceptable for a TV, at the price it was sold for, to develop this 'fault' in under 2 years? I noticed this over 6 months ago, I was considering having it calibrated, but found out before I did that it was a problem with the panel.

The standpoint on this appears to vary, some who have this problem have had the panel replaced, others haven't. Obviously I would like this to be reconsidered, especially since that the red levelsI appear to be getting are higher than others that have had their panel replaced.

I also made the problem clear topioneer before the TV was sent for repair, I was informed that thiswas considered a fault and I was instructed to contact one ofthe service centres to have it sent in. If this wasn't considered a fault at all, why was I instructed to send it in for repair?

One week passed with no reply, so i emailed again to ask for an update, no response, so 2 weeks after sending my reply, I asked again for a response as I would like to know so I can get my TV back, they replied the next day with, nothing has changed, it will not be repaired, so I replied with:

I have one more possibly short question, if it is ok.

As the brightness of the blacks have increased (with a shift into the red), and no doubt the panel has been preset with estimates of wear level over time, and had voltages (reset and the driving voltages) adjusted accordingly based upon the estimated wear, to attempt to keep the image brightness and colour accuracy. But if the wear amount is not what was estimated, these adjustments would be incorrect and would then cause the brightness and colour shift, correct? So, my question is, if the panel is not considered to be defective, and the problem is due to wear, and the estimated wear levels were off, would it be possible to manually adjust the reset and drive voltages, or even just reset the panel (no doubt the values can be backed up and restored or manually set if the reset does nothing) to see if the cause of the shift is due to a miss estimate in the wear rate? Even if this then causes the colour accuracy to be off, then that can be fixed via ISF, correct? and if the reset of the panel causes there to be a too low a reset voltage for the current phosphor strength, then that could be slowly increased to fix that also?

Sorry if I am being a pain about this, but I would like to try and get the panel working in as close a state to its original as possible, so would like to explore the different options.

Which I havent received a reply to yet, but I called the service center and asked them if they would do it and they said no, they are not allowed to if the panel hasnt been replaced and its not being replaced, so would I like my TV back.

All this after being told by pioneer at first that it is a fault and needs to be repaired.

Not happy

[lunarwolf]

so it seems voltage tweaking is the answer, if they have your set why don't they do it.

pretty crappy service imo. i won't be buying Pio in future. Samsung and Sony are poor too from my dealings with their customer service, how are Panny and LG in terms of service?

[Kila Skila]

Crappy's an understatement! How about we all mention trading standards to them

[dbond]

My limited experience with Panasonic was good. I bought a 42pwd6, and wasn't happy with the image quality, over a period of a month I had the looking at it, in the end they said that it was a known problem with plasmas and they said I could return it for a refund if I wanted.

[a4lloxo]

Just to let you all know that after some negotiation im having my panel replaced.im sorry to hear that some of you appear to have been fobbed off......

[stroud]

Originally Posted by nick270881

I am having problems getting the TV to respond to Hyperterminal

I have followed all the instructions but it shows as connected but does not respond to the POF or PON commands

Any ideas??

1. Make sure you have the right cable. There are cross over cables that look the same but won't work (so called null modem).

2. Check the baud rate on your TV.

Pioneer Displays Default to: 9600 Baud, 8 Data Bits, NO Parity and 1 Stop Bits, NO Flow Control.

If you need to verify/change you Display's Serial Port Settings:

1. First make sure your TV is in Stand-By mode. .
2. Continuously hold down the "Home Menu" key and press the "Power" key within 3 seconds (release "Home Menu" after pressing "Power" key). After the Pioneer power's on you should see a menu with COM settings.
3. Use your "Left" and "Right" arrows to scroll through and locate 9600-232C or the wanted baud rate .
4. Once selected press the "Power" key to power off the set or the Home Menu Key to exit.

NOTE: Suggested Port Speed: 9600 baud (default).

[Ragnarok]

I'm considering doing this to my TV, but I do have an extended warranty with RS.

I have 8800 hours on my LX-5090, and probably had the issue for 2000-3000 hours though is doesn't bother me on the whole, watching anything with black bars they bars, have a definite irritating red tinge that gotten worse at least once.

With the lights off it has a clear red glow with no signal on an input. increasing the brightness turns them to Gray blacks but then it crushes them too and the picture just doesn't look right.

I use bumptious settings too.

I managed to get the telnet commands working but didn't want to start resetting counters that may or not be problematic to the panel ageing adjustments the TV make according to it's firmware programming.

[stroud]

Originally Posted by Ragnarok

I'm considering doing this to my TV, but I do have an extended warranty with RS.

I have 8800 hours on my LX-5090, and probably had the issue for 2000-3000 hours though is doesn't bother me on the whole, watching anything with black bars they bars, have a definite irritating red tinge that gotten worse at least once.

With the lights off it has a clear red glow with no signal on an input. increasing the brightness turns them to Gray blacks but then it crushes them too and the picture just doesn't look right.

I use bumptious settings too.

I managed to get the telnet commands working but didn't want to start resetting counters that may or not be problematic to the panel ageing adjustments the TV make according to it's firmware programming.

Not sure if you have seen the Official Pioneer Kuro Reddish Tint Problem Thread in which many users have the same issue. I had 4000+ hours on mine when I did the reset and have had no issues since. I am also aware of users with more hours having success too. My guess would be that once you have done the reset you will need to raise VOL RST P to between 60 - 70 and may need to raise VOL SUS slightly (you probably won't need to). Hope it helps

[stroud]

Originally Posted by Ragnarok

....to the panel ageing adjustments the TV make according to it's firmware programming.

In terms of the panel ageing adjustments my best 'educated guess' is that the VOL adjustments increase on a gentle upwards curve over time to cope with panel degradation. It does this by refering to the number of emmited pulses.

By resetting the pulse counter you are going back to the beginning of that curve. VOL RST P seems to rise more sharply which is why I think it needs to be raised a bit more manually.

[Ragnarok]

I spoke to RS today.

The Engineer seemed to think he'd probably have to take the TV away to examine it. after reading some of that long thred I'm sure it could be fixed out in the field.

I just don't have the kahonas to start resting counters. especially with the best part of 3 years left on the extended warranty.

Last thing i want is for them to take it away and decide it's beyond economic repair, as the alternatives suck. Panasonic Neo PDP's give me a headache within 5 minutes with there flicker.

I'll try to have a play and see if I can improve things without resetting counters. ChelseaFan seemed to have a work around this on his with ISF settings and lowering the red 0ire on the grayscale with his home made ISFccc tool. I've tried to message him in the past but his inbox is always full. the Only alternative is paying for ControlCal.

[Boris Blank]

SI contacted my dealer three weeks ago and he said that he would see what could be done - no update as yet.

As my Red tint was visible from day 1, I think my set has a fault rather than the aging issue and indeed the level of red tint has remained consistent since.

In any case, no mention of a red tint due to aging (or whatever) was mentioned by Pioneer in any way shape or form prior to purchasing the set so I do think this is something that Trading Standards would be interested in, you don't buy a TV that has the blackest blacks available just to have it turn red or mauve/purple at a later date (sooner rather than later for most of us).

I'll ask my dealer for an update on my position today.

[Ragnarok]

Originally Posted by stroud

By resetting the pulse counter you are going back to the beginning of that curve. VOL RST P seems to rise more sharply which is why I think it needs to be raised a bit more manually.

I had a play with the Vol RST P, taking it down seems to reduce the black level, unfortunately there is still a red glow. I suspect the aging algorithm has thrown the RGB out. Or Bumtious's haven't worked the panel has hard as the standard settings thus the panel ageing RGB adjustments have been overkill.

There does appear to be telnet commands to setting for panel degradation correction for the primary colours.

That would probably be the safer way to go, but I cannot see a way to view the current values. before making any changes and is says setting only affective in Factory mode. on all 3 commands. Probably just requires you to power off the TV.

There surely has to be a way to sort this without resorting to resetting the pulse counter.

[stroud]

Originally Posted by Ragnarok

I had a play with the Vol RST P, taking it down seems to reduce the black level, unfortunately there is still a red glow. I suspect the aging algorithm has thrown the RGB out. Or Bumtious's haven't worked the panel has hard as the standard settings thus the panel ageing RGB adjustments have been overkill.

There does appear to be telnet commands to setting for panel degradation correction for the primary colours.

That would probably be the safer way to go, but I cannot see a way to view the current values. before making any changes and is says setting only affective in Factory mode. on all 3 commands. Probably just requires you to power off the TV.

There surely has to be a way to sort this without resorting to resetting the pulse counter.

I have tried to adjust all 3 panel degradation settings (RGB), all from min to max (or 1 -7) with no affect on red tint. I also tried to adjust RGB highs and lows and although you can lessen the red tint, you end up with a slightly green picture. I have heard of no reports of this being able to be cured through calibration.

It is worth remembering that there are 2 types of red tint. Incorrect calibration and menu settings which can be resolved through calibration, or the uneven red tint that seems worse at the bottom right hand side.

If you have the second type, I and others have come to the hypothetical conclusion that the panels CEL layer has been applied incorrectly on affected panels. It's either too much CEL on Red or not enough on Green.

The result of this appears to be that the reset pulse is over charging the red cells causing them to glow (hence red blacks).

The good news is that appears to be possible to revert the TV back to how it was when new (and trust me it does look good as new). If you have enough headroom to lower VOL RST P then you should be able to get black back again. The problem is that it is already set fairly low so you may not be able to get it down far enough.

[stroud]

Originally Posted by Ragnarok

...I cannot see a way to view the current values.

Please see attached for navigating with your remote. Useful for making notes of existing settings (and adjusting them too). You can use your standard remote once you have issued the FAY command (i.e. once you are in factory mode).

[nick270881]

I have just spoken to John Lewis regarding my Red Tints and they have arranged for H&H Video from Ellsmere Port to visit and take a look

Hopefully something can be done in my home aswell as I really don't fancy them taking it away as i'm worried it may come back damaged and I don't have another TV to use in it's place whilst it is away!!

I hope something can be done as there doesn't seem to be any decent alternatives other than the Panasonic VT30 and Sony HX923 but each of those have their own issues

[Boris Blank]

Heard back from my dealer, I was sent a list of Service Centres (which I already had from elsewhere) that I can return my Pioneer to for examination - the recommended service centre is 500 miles away and I would need to get the Pioneer there under my own steam

Interesting, wonder what would have happened if my set had completely died? There is no way I can transport it down to London (the HUUUGEEEE and space-consuming packaging is long since gone, never mind the cost and practicalities). I won't be buying a Pioneer again, thats for sure.

[KuroMike]

Originally Posted by Boris Blank

Heard back from my dealer, I was sent a list of Service Centres (which I already had from elsewhere) that I can return my Pioneer to for examination - the recommended service centre is 500 miles away and I would need to get the Pioneer there under my own steam

Interesting, wonder what would have happened if my set had completely died? There is no way I can transport it down to London (the HUUUGEEEE and space-consuming packaging is long since gone, never mind the cost and practicalities). I won't be buying a Pioneer again, thats for sure.

Hi

I thought I'd drop a post on this issue. I have posted on a US forum about the red tinted blacks but have ended up totally confused! I don't know if what I have got is "normal" for a Kuro as it ages, or if I have a problem. I get mixed messages.

I have got a LX5090H, and in certain conditions (dark room and watching a dark scene) I can see a subtle red tint to blacks. I notice it more on my Movie mode settings. I have had my tv professionally ISF calibrated and it is not so obvious on ISF Night, but it is there a little bit.

The calibrated (who is very experienced) told me that it is the norm for Kuro's. He has a client with a 500A who has it a lot worse than mine. I have spoke to Pioneer uk who told me that they had never heard of the problem - sounds like a few people have been given that story as well!

However, a pioneer authorised service centre in the west midlands told me that they had heard of it, and have offered to swap the screen. I must admit that I am tempted to do this.

Does anyone know of any issues having a new screen fitted into a 2 year old tv? will this cure the problem?

I know that plasma's change with age, but I thought that was only the brightness that the panel outputs. I bought this tv as I thought I was buying pioneer quality. 2 years later I have niggling doubts over my kuro and I don't know if it is a fault or a Panasonic-esq style of issue whereby the panels do change for the worse over age.

Can anyone offer any advice?

[stroud]

Originally Posted by KuroMike

Hi

I thought I'd drop a post on this issue. I have posted on a US forum about the red tinted blacks but have ended up totally confused! I don't know if what I have got is "normal" for a Kuro as it ages, or if I have a problem. I get mixed messages.

I have got a LX5090H, and in certain conditions (dark room and watching a dark scene) I can see a subtle red tint to blacks. I notice it more on my Movie mode settings. I have had my tv professionally ISF calibrated and it is not so obvious on ISF Night, but it is there a little bit.

The calibrated (who is very experienced) told me that it is the norm for Kuro's. He has a client with a 500A who has it a lot worse than mine. I have spoke to Pioneer uk who told me that they had never heard of the problem - sounds like a few people have been given that story as well!

However, a pioneer authorised service centre in the west midlands told me that they had heard of it, and have offered to swap the screen. I must admit that I am tempted to do this.

Does anyone know of any issues having a new screen fitted into a 2 year old tv? will this cure the problem?

I know that plasma's change with age, but I thought that was only the brightness that the panel outputs. I bought this tv as I thought I was buying pioneer quality. 2 years later I have niggling doubts over my kuro and I don't know if it is a fault or a Panasonic-esq style of issue whereby the panels do change for the worse over age.

Can anyone offer any advice?

According to the service manual, when the panel is replaced for service the service engineer should reset the hours meter and the pulse meter (to tell the TV it has a new panel and to start the adjustment process from fresh). He will then adjust a few a parameters if necessary. The whole workflow is documented in the service manual.

This is exactly the same process I used to cure the red tint, the only difference being I had not replaced the panel. Therefore you should have no problem if the screen is replaced.

You could reset the pulse and hour meters now as it will be done anyway, but I am not sure if it would affect your warranty.

[Ragnarok]

Stroud, since you played about with the service menu. compared to the red on the menus OSD where where your blacks.

When I lowered my VOL YKNOFSA D from 128 to around 68 or 58 the blacks where inky and awesome again. However This did introduce blue sparkles to a whites from my HTPC. up close they looked like dead pixels going on and off.

The blacks next to the factory mode menu looked very black even in a dark room though, when i returned it the background looked about half way to the reg on the factory menus.

Also where was your Vol RST p before and after your reset?

If I do think I'll probably need to up the VOL YKNOFS D ( which adjusts 3 voltages up to comensate for ageing) and adjust the VOL RST P. right now I might have to turn it up to make the black screen uniform as the panel is right now because the black look redish and dirty like a dirty non uniform pattern left on the screen dark and very dark patches so I think it needs a tweak anyway.

[stroud]

Originally Posted by Ragnarok

Stroud, since you played about with the service menu. compared to the red on the menus OSD where where your blacks.

When I lowered my VOL YKNOFSA D from 128 to around 68 or 58 the blacks where inky and awesome again. However This did introduce blue sparkles to a whites from my HTPC. up close they looked like dead pixels going on and off.

The blacks next to the factory mode menu looked very black even in a dark room though, when i returned it the background looked about half way to the reg on the factory menus.

Also where was your Vol RST p before and after your reset?

If I do think I'll probably need to up the VOL YKNOFS D ( which adjusts 3 voltages up to comensate for ageing) and adjust the VOL RST P. right now I might have to turn it up to make the black screen uniform as the panel is right now because the black look redish and dirty like a dirty non uniform pattern left on the screen dark and very dark patches so I think it needs a tweak anyway.

I reset the pulse meter and the hour meter. My RST P was at 23 before and after reset but I noticed black crush / pixel lag where the screen had been black for some time (movie bars etc.). It wasn't immediately noticeable. I raised RST P until it stopped (even if movies bars had been there for 2 hours). The magic number for me was 62. I think the number of hours you have plays some part it in too.

[Ragnarok]

I also noticed that Rasing the RST P evens out the blacks, you can see like a 2 toned pattern in the background ( looks random like dirt and raising the RSTP seemed to even that out.

so if i do go ahead with the reset, i need to adjust the RST P and probably the VOL YKNOFSA D upward .

The think that I did was when i did drop the VOL YKNOFSA D I the blacks where great but not very uniform. If I upped the RST P it fixed the unevenness but also started to bring back the reds on the black. and i still had artefacts .

I may have to go down the reset route, but at the moment I'm not watching movies and the TV still looks great watching darts and sport.

I'm also considering getting an I1 display (3) pro. I might try to measure before and after as this bugger might actually be able to capture the black levels and the tint and measure it.

[KuroMike]

So, after reading numerous posts on this issue, where very well respected posters have put various views, I am still a little confused.

D-Nice states that all Kuro's will have a reddish tint to blacks in certain conditions (from what I can gather it is 0-10% stimuli). He is saying that people think that they have red tint issue when really their tv is just behaving normally. I may come into this category.

He says that there are a small number of Kuro's who have a genuine red tinted black problem. I am not massively technical on these matters but I want to be sure before I go down the route of looking to change my screen that I do have an issue.

Can anybody advise on what is normal for a Kuro?

[Ragnarok]

basically, if there is anything on your screen, your blacks should look black next to them. you might see a red tint if you scrutinised the screen on no signal or a black screen.

On mine on the service menu the blacks look about half way to the red of the factory menu red the screen glows red on no input or a black screen in the evening with a 40w bulb on in the room. I need the brightness Upto +5 or +6 to remove the tint but it destroys the black levels making them Gray and appalling. The red tint is actually preferable to +5 on the brightness!!!

Mines quite bright I might be able to capture it with my I1 display pro, which should arrive tomorrow :D .

[KuroMike]

Thanks for the reply Ragnarok.

If I've got some bright content on screen on a 21:9 film, then the black bars are fine. If I have a near blank screen or there is only a low light image showing, then I do get a faint red tint. Another example was when Sweeny Todd was on film 4. In the very dark scenes, there was a very faint tint in the corners of the screen

It is only faint and in those circumstances, but it is a bit annoying. So by that description, does it sound like my Kuro has the issue? It does to me. I'm sure it never used to be like that.

Does anyone know the true cause of this problem and why some sets are effected and not others? It seems to be hit and miss in both the UK and the US.

I'm going to ring Pioneer UK again in the next few days to discuss again. I'm sure I'll get no-where! I see people are entering the service menu to make adjustments to the voltages to get rid of this red tint so there is a fix. I don't understand why Pioneer won't acknowledge there is a problem if some people have it but not others?

[Ragnarok]

I wish my black bar on 21:9 films looked black. I'm not going to say yours won't get worse as times go by but your TV sounds great at the moment.

If I had a decent camera I'd show ya mine.

Hopefully Richer Sounds will be sending someone out in the next few days.

[KuroMike]

Hi Ragnarok

I raised a call with Pioneer last week as I was convinced that my TV did not have this red tint when new. They arranged for the nearest Pioneer Service Centre to send an engineer round -which he did last Friday.

He had a service remote and accessed the service menu immediately. Everything looked fine. My TV only had about 2,700 hours on it.

He acknowledged the issue with the red tint and rang a contact that he had at Pioneer.

The guy at the other end of the phone at Pioneer said that it was perfectly normal to get a red tint in a dark room with little content on screen. The response was that the TV is behaving normally.

I was still convinced that I was being fobbed off and I rang Pioneer's UK Customer support again yesterday. I said that I wanted to speak to someone technical. There was a supposed expert next to the person I spoke to.

I was told the same thing and it is just how the technology works and that it won't get any worse. They even said that it would have been there since the beginning and you just hadn't noticed it until now.

They said if you had a new screen fitted, it would just do the same thing.

I've got to admit that I am still confused. One minute I think, "hey-ho my TV is working normally and it's one of those things" and the next It's bugging me again.

I do not know anyone else with a Kuro to compare their set to mine. That's what I need to do really.

My ISF calibrater has told me that all all sets will exhibit this behaviour. He has seen a KRP500M which shows it worse than mine!

If it is only a small number of sets as apposed to it being the "norm", I just don't understand why so many people with different models on both sides of the Atlantic report this?

[Ragnarok]

Mine is pretty bad though, So I will be banging on at richer sounds to get it sorted.

It's just a pain because you know when you first get these sets, you have to check that it's turned on because the blacks where that dammed good.

I have a feeling I'll be attempting Stroud method fairly soon. especially if Richer Sounds chosen repair agent fob me off.

[KuroMike]

Hi Ragnarok

I hope you get the reponse you want from Richer Sounds when they come out. Please post what the outcome is.

I'm still in two minds about the red tint issue. Part of me really wants to belive what Pioneer are telling me about it being normal and all Kuro's do it, but I still have doubts.

I live in the West Midlands and the only other person I know who has a Kuro (he has a KRP500A) lives in Oxford.

If it bugs me enough I think I'm going to have to drive over to his to take a look to see if his TV is the same as mine. It may be the only way I can put this to bed.

As it would be a 2 hour round trip, I'm really trying to fight the urge to do it! Think I'm getting a bit obsessed with this now!

If Pioneer are spinning us a load of BS, can anyone offer a theory why this may be happening on some sets and not others?

[a4lloxo]

guys i had the panel replaced due to the red tint problem.my TV is a 508xd.it was 4 years old with approx 12000 hours on it.on return from the repairers the red tint had gone but the blacks were not as deep as when the set was new.
I reset the hour meter and the pulse meter(as this hadnt been done by the repairers) using telnet(downloaded the files from the net,works with windows 7 32 bit) and a cable that i bought from a certain auction site.(i couldnt get it to work at first but found the problem to be that the TV will only communicate on COM 1,after i changed the USB port assignment settings on my laptop it worked first time.
After doing this the blacks are now fantastic again with no sign of red tint.
Im convinced that the red tint problem depends on settings,usage etc and thats why there are some users reporting no tint at all,while others are really bad(see pics posted earlier in this thread).

Really guys you should try the fix,it does work and has sorted my blacks back to how they were when the set was new,especially as Pioneer seem unwilling to help.......

[KuroMike]

Thanks for the post on the replaced panel. Glad you got it sorted.

Who did you contact to authorise the panel replacement? Pioneer seem unwilling to authorise it as they say that it is normal? The company that did the swap should have zeroed the hour meter on replacement of the screen, but at least you did it yourself.

Did the company say if the problem would return?