[Norlo]

I was in the process of writting a post in the 'What does sandbox mean' thread, but now see it's closed. I can see why. Anyway, as i was trying to pull together a few things which i wanted to put to Cas, i have created a new thread.

Note, all i really wanted was the opportunity to put this to Cas. When he has read and replied, i'll close this thread. What i am saying is, i don't want to start another thread that turns into what the other one was. So, here's the post...



For those of you who have been lucky enough to follow this thread (), and its forerunner (the best GTA game thread), I just wanted to put together a brief summary. I think pretty much everyone at this point can see Cas has some issues – sorry Cas, but you seriously do have problems. The manner in which you conduct yourself it beyond poor.

I believe you are around 16-ish, and while that goes someway to explaining your behaviour, you will soon learn the attitude you have shown in this thread is not going to fly in the grown up world. I have no doubt you will come back with a charming reply to this, but I am not the one who’ll be having serious issues in adult life. You will. Unless you can learn to behave and debate properly.

Anyway, off we go…

Originally Posted by cas398

That's the reason no one sells games in the Sandbox genre becasue it's stupid and confusing.

So no one sells games in the sandbox genre because it’s stupid and confusing. That is your statement.

However, you (and you alone) class sandbox as a game genre. You have stated that before. You even game me a nice list of your top 5 sandbox games. Plus you game me a definition of what a game in the sandbox genre is.

But, the thing is, if no one sells games in the sandbox genre (because it’s stupid and confusing) why are you using sandbox as a genre to define games? You just said it would be stupid to class a games genre as sandbox (hence no one sells games in the sandbox genre), but you have done just that? You are using sandbox to define a genre.

Then you seem to change what you are using the word sandbox for.

Originally Posted by cas398

p.s. sandbox isn't a mode it's an evironment.

So it’s an environment now? Sandbox is an environment. Right? Or is it still a genre like you said before?

No, wait, it’s now definitely an environment, because you say it again…

Originally Posted by cas398

Sandbox is a term used to DESCRIBE the environment in which the game is set.

So sandbox is a word used to describe the environment the game is set. Right?

So does that mean GTAIII’s genre is sandbox sandbox? ‘Sandbox’ being the genre (as defied and categorised by you), and ‘sandbox’ being used the describe the environment?

That sounds kinda odd. Sandbox sandbox. Hmm.

Oh hang on, now you are saying sandbox is a term to…

Originally Posted by cas398

…describe the games structure and that's all it should be used for.

So the term sandbox should only be used to describe a games structure? Right? Not the genre? Not the environment the game is set. But the structure of the game? Hmm.

It seems over the course of these conversations, you’ve used the term sandbox to describe a games genre, environment and structure. Those a 3 different things, so how can you be using sandbox for all 3?

From reading what you have said, the following is true of Just Cause…

Genre: Sandbox
Environment: sandbox
Game structure: Sandbox

Hmm, ok. Now I see why no one sells games in the sandbox genre (like you said), because it is confusing.

So why do you (and you alone) use sandbox as a genre?

This is fundamentally where you are out of step without everyone – and by everyone, I mean publishers, developers, gamers, forum members. You seem to move around on what sandbox means to suit yourself. One post sandbox means genre, the next post, sandbox reference to environment. I believe this is why we have had these shenanigans over the last few days. Oh, and the fact that you cannot listen.

Anyway, on we go.

Originally Posted by cas398

You just said exactly what I said from the beginning, it's a descriptive word and that only, it is not a classification for games, becuase they already have their own genre. Hence the reason why those who do not have a set genre are classed as Sandbox games because the Sandbox is what makes the games various elements come together.

This is a good one. So, the bit in bold.

‘Sandbox is a descriptive word and that only, it is not a classification for games’
But you said sandbox was a genre, and by definition, genre is a means to classify something, in this case, games?

Originally Posted by cas398

A Sandbox game doesn't HAVE to be in third-person, I never said it has to be anything specifically so you must have pulled that out from somewhere dark and dindgy. the whole point in a sanbox game is that it isn't any specific, I thought I had made that clear over the last 72 hours, oh yeah I did.

Okay, what is an example of a sandbox game that is not set in 3rd person? I would be interested to hear if there is one that you know of?

Originally Posted by cas398

Just because a game has something outside it's specific genre does not mean it change it's purpose.

Like I said Fallout 3 is an RPG becuase it has that specific gameplay, Paradise is a driving/racing game becuase it has that gameplay.

GTA is a sandbox game becasue it has everything

So close with this one.

Fallout 3 is in the RPG genre. Just as you say.
Burnout P is in the Driving/racing genre. Just as you say.

GTA is in the sandbox genre, oh wait, this is wrong.

GTA is in the 3rd person action/adventure genre.

However, all three of the above games would be further qualified as being set in a sandbox environment. This DOES NOT mean their genre changes. F3 is still an RPG, that is its genre. But F3 is an RPG set in a sandbox environment.
Burnout P, it is a driving/racing game. Driving racing is its genre, but it is a driving/racing genre game, set in a sandbox environment.
GTA, Just Casue etc, those are 3rd person action/adventure genre games, but all have sandbox environments.

And finally, I love this one…

Originally Posted by cas398

I've never been known to contradict myself and never will

You already have. See above.

Making a statement like this just shows everyone what kind of person we are dealing with. This is my last attempt to try and explain to you what 99% of everyone else can see and understand.

[Mark Hodgkinson]

Thanks on behalf of nearly every member of AVF for taking the time Norlo

[Sinzer]

It will get locked. Essentially sums it up though.

[Razor]

I havent read the other threads but I agree with Norlo, that's how I see a Sandbox game.

[Tigerblade]

Thanks Norlo, nail hit and head.

I'm strangely looking forward to the response

[FKA]

Thanks Mate, Nailed it!!

[Noggleboggleman]

Fully agree with what Norlo has said about sandbox games, mirroring my view perfectly.

I have read a few posts by Norlo and they have all been well thought out, sensible and a good read.

Just like mine really.

[Mark Hodgkinson]

Originally Posted by Tigerblade

Thanks Norlo, nail hit and head.

I'm strangely looking forward to the response

I'm not sure there will be one but here's hoping

[Tigerblade]

Originally Posted by Razor

I havent read the other threads but I agree with Norlo, that's how I see a Sandbox game.

Well Cas can add that as another that doesn't agree with him

You could read them for a laugh but be prepared to want to have your say

[ODP]

i think we have missed something lads.

Its a massive whooooosh.. and we have missed it..

Cas is a Wind up merchant and hes got us big time

[ODP]

has anyone viewed his recent posts, literally argues with anyone he comes across, wont accept anyone opinions exept his own

[Norlo]

Sinzer just pointed out to me that you can go to Cas's webpage via his sig. I would recomend everyone have a read. It explains much.

Now, i am not one to kick a lame duck (well, not always ), but...

These days I use the internet a bit more constructively, online shopping, helping people in forums as well as the odd chat, bargain hunting, learning new things like bodybuilding techniques, file types, conversion, processes, programs etc.
Cas's Virtual Home: About Cas

Constructively? And Imagine Cas when he was not trying to help us

A 20 year old boy, who only starting computers/internet/gaming 6 years ago (since 2003). 6 years.

Cas, your crazy. It's 6 short years since you started using the web and playing games. It also seems you 'took a break' (seemingly before you had even started) and got back into games with a 360. A 360? Yet here you are trying to help us all by tendering your fledgling opinion (in an overly aggressive manner) with regard to video games as fact. Way out.

Some of the people you have called Internet plonkers have been playing games longer than you have been alive. I am 35. I started playing games when i was about 5 with the Vic20. I started using the internet before it was the internet, when it was just BBS and 'alt binary' lists etc I started working in the video game industry when i was 17. That was 18 years ago. You would have been in pampers when i was playing SFII Turbo on jap release day for the review. I know very, very well what i am talking about. As do many other people on AVF. If you wanted to learn you could do just that on here.

This does not make my opinion, or any other AVF'ers opinion worth more than the next - an opinion is everyone's right. But if you cannot see that over time, you accumulate knowledge, and that knowledge allows you to form a better, more balanced and factually based opinion, then you are beyond hope.

Now i know your age and little bit about you, i can understand a bit more.

However, it is equally clear that you flat out do not know that much about video games, the industry or much else in this regard. I kinda think i wasted my time explaining things to you in my first post, but even a fool should be given a chance to learn. I just hope you are big enough to learn something even if you don't come back and admit it.

[Tigerblade]

Originally Posted by Norlo

Some of the people you have called Internet plonkers have been playing games longer than you have been alive. I am 35. I started playing games when i was about 5 with the Vic20. I started using the internet before it was the internet, when it was just BBS and 'alt binary' lists etc I started working in the video game industry when i was 17. That was 18 years ago. You would have been in pampers when i was playing SFII Turbo on jap release day for the review. I know very, very well what i am talking about. As do many other people on AVF. If you wanted to learn you could do just that on here.

Now that is an idea for a good thread.

Winged Warlords on the ZX81 for me...happy days

[Norlo]

Originally Posted by Tigerblade

Now that is an idea for a good thread.

Winged Warlords on the ZX81 for me...happy days

Yeah, it's funny looking back isn't it TB.

I guess i actually started gaming with the old TV game thingy. You know, paddle controls, and all the games were hitting a square around the screen with varying numbers of bats dependent on the 'sport'! It was like the Grandstand one, but a knock off. But the Vic20 was the 1st computer i had tho.

Do you remember Blitz or Mosquito? I think the latter was a on the ZX81 as well as Vic20. Top stuff.

Edit - i think my dad bought me the Vic 20 thinking it would be something i used for school or whatever. I think he got the picute after a few trips to the local supermarket, as the first thing i would go was head to the games rack (literally a single rotating rack) with the Vic20 and ZX games. Remember Mastertronic? Man those guys pumped out the games

[Razor]

Originally Posted by Norlo

Yeah, it's funny looking back isn't it TB.

I guess i actually started gaming with the old TV game thingy. You know, paddle controls, and all the games were hitting a square around the screen with varying numbers of bats dependent on the 'sport'! It was like the Grandstand one, but a knock off. But the Vic20 was the 1st computer i had tho.

Do you remember Blitz or Mosquito? I think the latter was a on the ZX81 as well as Vic20. Top stuff.

Edit - i think my dad bought me the Vic 20 thinking it would be something i used for school or whatever. I think he got the picute after a few trips to the local supermarket, as the first thing i would go was head to the games rack (literally a single rotating rack) with the Vic20 and ZX games. Remember Mastertronic? Man those guys pumped out the games

8 Bit gaming, them were the days. Codemaster games for £1.99

[Tigerblade]

Originally Posted by Norlo

Yeah, it's funny looking back isn't it TB.

I guess i actually started gaming with the old TV game thingy. You know, paddle controls, and all the games were hitting a square around the screen with varying numbers of bats dependent on the 'sport'! It was like the Grandstand one, but a knock off. But the Vic20 was the 1st computer i had tho.

Do you remember Blitz or Mosquito? I think the latter was a on the ZX81 as well as Vic20. Top stuff.

Edit - i think my dad bought me the Vic 20 thinking it would be something i used for school or whatever. I think he got the picute after a few trips to the local supermarket, as the first thing i would go was head to the games rack (literally a single rotating rack) with the Vic20 and ZX games. Remember Mastertronic? Man those guys pumped out the games

Don't remember those games but do remember Mastertronic. The sports game you describe gives me another early memory on the stylish Atari 2600, blocky F1 racing and what can only be described as a tank deathmatch with weird pads which had circles you turned all the way round to steer. Wii motion plus and Natal? Pah!

Talking of Spectrum, I was hooked the other day playing a game called 'Spike!' Not as old as the games mentioned (from what I remember) but still good fun and the epitomy of the term 'rock hard'

Costa Capers, Dizzy, Monty Mole, Jet Set Willy.....Speccy was the platform king! No sandbox games tho IIRC

Originally Posted by Razor

8 Bit gaming, them were the days. Codemaster games for £1.99

All in massively oversized cardboard boxes too I remember excitedly picking up RoboCop on the Commodore64, gripping this insanely huge box for a tape. Man...kids today just don't get it.

[Haggler]

Hmm and zeppelin games for £2.99, hewson's budget rack it label, mastertronic, firebird and silverbird, the m.a.d range was i think mastertronics slightly more expensive label. Classic 8 bit budget gaming days indeed.

[Razor]

Originally Posted by Tigerblade

All in massively oversized cardboard boxes too I remember excitedly picking up RoboCop on the Commodore64, gripping this insanely huge box for a tape. Man...kids today just don't get it.

I think 8bit gaming is the reason why I am such a graphics whore. I really do appreciate good graphics in a game as we never really had this 'back in the day'.

Todays current gamers have never really experienced waiting 20 mins for games like Manic Minor to load up.

[Norlo]

Originally Posted by Tigerblade

Talking of Spectrum, I was hooked the other day playing a game called Spike! Not as old as the games mentioned (from what I remember) but still good fun and the epitomy of the term 'rock hard'

Spike!, now i wonder. Did that game start with the words, 'eek help Spike. Oh no. Molly?'

Originally Posted by Tigerblade

All in massively oversized cardboard boxes too I remember excitedly picking up RoboCop on the Commodore64, gripping this insanely huge box for a tape. Man...kids today just don't get it.

Those were great weren't they? Huge boxes, filled with stickers, posters, and other such stuff. I remember World Cup Carnival on the C64 as a classic example, from our old friends at US Gold.

Sew on patch, poster, sticker, booklet, wall chart. And the game. On the back of the box, they had pics which looked great (too great in fact), they were the arcade version, when you actually played the game, it was nothing like it. Almost if US Gold felt back and chucked the extra stuff in as a sorry, yes, we know the game is utter rubbish and we've mislead you So i did the decent thing, removed all the freebes, and took it back for an exchange. If the younger members thing assistants in game shops know nothing now, back them, it was like you were taking back a stick of plutonium or something. They jusy didn't know what to do.

[Haggler]

That's no sandbox it's a gamebox

But whilst on the subject i believe ultimate made the best cardboard boxes, the thickness of the cardboard was superb, here's one.

Staff of karnath and entombed on c64 were stellar titles, though they moved to the standard plastic tape cases for the sequels dragonskulle and blackwyche

[Tigerblade]

Originally Posted by Norlo

Spike!, now i wonder. Did that game start with the words, 'eek help Spike. Oh no. Molly?'

Never heard that but this is a screenshot of the rock hard level...

Originally Posted by Norlo

On the back of the box, they had pics which looked great (too great in fact), they were the arcade version, when you actually played the game, it was nothing like it.

Was about to mention this after Razor talking about graphics. The term 'Arcade Perfect' was banded about waaay to liberally and you used to get a couple of shots from each version on the back of all the boxes.....even 16bit shots on the back of 8bit boxes

[clc.sheff]

Bum.... talk about horses and bolted, etc... Been looking forward to getting on the office pc to get back on the sandbox bandwagon, I mean debate.

Pity the other thread has been closed so early (bit of an over moderation in my view but I don't makes the rules).

Totally agree r.e. The quality of the Ultimate boxes. They were top quality. I recon you could stand on one if you did it carefully

.....que warburtons music and a young lad peddaling a three speed sturney archer butchers bike over tha' moors delivering bread.... they even made cardboard boxes better in the old days

[Tigerblade]

Originally Posted by clc.sheff

Bum.... talk about horses and bolted, etc... Been looking forward to getting on the office pc to get back on the sandbox bandwagon, I mean debate.

It's not too late to have your say, the more the merrier

[clc.sheff]

Originally Posted by Tigerblade

It's not too late to have your say, the more the merrier

I have decided that GTA is a 'one-man-band' game because it involves a bit of everything....well apart from superpowers, climbing buildings, flying and er, lots of other stuff I'm just going to ignore

[Mark Hodgkinson]

Originally Posted by Tigerblade

The sports game you describe gives me another early memory on the stylish Atari 2600, blocky F1 racing and what can only be described as a tank deathmatch with weird pads which had circles you turned all the way round to steer. Wii motion plus and Natal? Pah!

Combat, it came bundled with mine. Xmas Eve 1977/8 and I literally had to have it right then. I played on being cute and my parents being tipsy

2 hours later, I still couldn't control the bloody thing

[CAS FAN]

I thought I was getting a right slagging for something when I started reading this thread.

[Mark Hodgkinson]

Originally Posted by CAS FAN

I thought I was getting a right slagging for something when I started reading this thread.

But do you know what sandbox means?

I notice your namesake hasn't put in an appearance to this thread. Strange

[CAS FAN]

Originally Posted by hodg100

But do you know what sandbox means?

I notice your namesake hasn't put in an appearance to this thread. Strange

Sandbox..(s-and-box) - Noun - A cubic device filled with a naturally occurring granular material composed of finely divided rock and mineral particles.

Yes, this other Cas character does seem to be giving this thread a wide berth.