[Jay]

As we all know the wii is cleaning up, as is the ds.

Nintendo decided to leave the race for the most powerful specs this gen.

History shows that each gen has had the least powerful console cleaning up, is that a coincidence or is there something in it?

[SyStemDeMoN]

I don't think its down to how much power the machine has, I think its more a case of if you can get games for it from a car boot sale (pirated) or download it yourself rather than paying £40 a time for a game that your not even sure you will like.

PS1 cleaned up. Why ? Loads of games, and chippable.

PS2 cleaned up. Why ? Loads of games, and chippable.

360 started well. Why ? Flashable, so cheap games.

Wii doing REALLY well. Why ? Chipable, backup loaders available and very appealing to kids and the odd family get together.

Same with the DS and PSP really.

In my opinion its all down to weather you can get cheap games for the system.

People are WILLINGLY voiding their warrenty on expensive pieces pf equipment, so they can save a fortune in games.

[Jay]

Originally Posted by SyStemDeMoN

Same with the DS and PSP really.

Good points, and yes I believe piracy does effect sales.

Maybe in the ps3 and 360s case it may be a reason some choose the 360.

Although both the psp and ds can run backups. Some say piracy actually killed the psp as people bought hardly any games.

The ds is still wiping the floor with it. The ds is also easier to run backup games, just get an r4 or acekard etc, the games are smaller in size, only a few mb.

But I'd bet that the majority of ds owners would have never heard or an R4.

I'd also bet that most gamers don't even know about piracy, infact it's funny that the ps3 can not run backups, while the 360 can, yet the 360 still has a higher attach rate.

I guess while graphics and horsepower are very important for some (and it seems to be a big thing people want on forums like this), the majority don't really care.

[Sephiroth0000]

Originally Posted by Indecisive Jay

I guess while graphics and horsepower are very important for some (and it seems to be a big thing people want on forums like this), the majority don't really care.

But the same can be said about most electrical items. People do not care how something works providing it works. The amount of people I have had come in buying LCD/Plasma and thinking its HD just because the 'HDReady' logo is on it is unreal. When I try to explain to them the concept of 720P/1080P they look at me like I've lost the plot

I do think that piracy is a big factor with regards to a console's success but at the same time I believe the games available and the console brand is just as important. How many people went and bought a 360 because they had an Xbox at some point and the same for the PS2/PS3? Which ever way people look at society as a whole always go with what they know... and how long have Nintendo been going for now?

[Jay]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth0000

The amount of people I have had come in buying LCD/Plasma and thinking its HD just because the 'HDReady' logo is on it is unreal. When I try to explain to them the concept of 720P/1080P they look at me like I've lost the plot

Not sure I understand what you meant with regards to people thinking a tv is hd due to the hd ready sticker being on it.

And you explaining the differences between 720p and 1080p.

If you're referring to 1024x768 and 1024x720 plasmas for example, they are hd ready, to be classed as hd ready a tv has to be able to display a minimum of 720 lines of resolution and have a dvi (hdcp encrypted) or hdmi input.

Older phillips lcds for example did not have hdmi inputs but they had dvi inputs that were hdcp encrypted, and they had the minimum 720 lines of resolution

[SyStemDeMoN]

I think he means they are looking at a freeview signal and think thats HD quality

[Jay]

Originally Posted by SyStemDeMoN

I think he means they are looking at a freeview signal and think thats HD quality

Ah I mis read it.

I know that type, the ones that buy a 1080p set and then wonder why eastenders on bbc looks better on their crt

You need to feed hd sources into it, it doesn't make your old vhs player hd

[Miyazaki]

Originally Posted by Indecisive Jay

Good points, and yes I believe piracy does effect sales.

Maybe in the ps3 and 360s case it may be a reason some choose the 360.

Although both the psp and ds can run backups. Some say piracy actually killed the psp as people bought hardly any games.

The ds is still wiping the floor with it. The ds is also easier to run backup games, just get an r4 or acekard etc, the games are smaller in size, only a few mb.

But I'd bet that the majority of ds owners would have never heard or an R4.

I'd also bet that most gamers don't even know about piracy, infact it's funny that the ps3 can not run backups, while the 360 can, yet the 360 still has a higher attach rate.

I guess while graphics and horsepower are very important for some (and it seems to be a big thing people want on forums like this), the majority don't really care.

I only waiting so long to get a ps3 coz you had to buy the games. I only get ps3 games that are old or cheap and hardly play on it.

I'm with the poster above who said that it is the most moddable console that wins.

I still dunno why dreamcast failed though! Best console ever.

[Sinzer]

The most perceived fit for purpose unit wins.

Moddable does not equal win. It is a cause and effect, more people have the sytem, thus more people want to mod it, making mods more available and so on. Unless you really research the connection, then it is just a correlation.

The PSP is ten times more moddable than the DS, yet the DS wipes the floor with it in sales.

Creating a successful product does not rely on what it can ACTUALLY do, but what people PERCEIVE it can do and the relation that has to the value of the product.

Most people have a poor perception of the true value of a product, generally due to lack of or mis- information (even sometimes too much information ).

A lot of factors will make up that perception, mostly they can be weighted and would likely include the following for a console :

Price
Features
Games
Modability
Backwards compability etc.
What your friends have

Without doing research it is pointless trying to weight them, however, I would assume that the biggest weighting factor will be price compared with features/games.

I would say that Nintendo have been most successful this round, because they have created the product that people perceive as being good. Great marketing with a technically inferior product at a satisfactory price point.

It doesn't really matter what your product can actually do, people will buy it as long as they believe it can do it.

[Jay]

Originally Posted by Sinzer

Moddable does not equal win. It is a cause and effect, more people have the sytem, thus more people want to mod it, making mods more available and so on. Unless you really research the connection, then it is just a correlation.

The PSP is ten times more moddable than the DS, yet the DS wipes the floor with it in sales.

Totally agree.

As I said earlier some people buy a console with the intention of modding, I'm sure some are holding back from the ps3 until it becomes able to play backups.

But piracy only relates to a very small percentage of owners of a console, the majority believe it or not buy games

On your other points sinzer, I see what you're saying but there must be something in it that shows that the least powerful bit of hardware as always "won" the console wars.

Is it becasue manufacturers overestimate what the consumer actually wants from a product.

Graphics, media centres, blu ray players, dvd players aren't obviously something the majority of people want this generation in a console.

Otherwise the wii would have flopped.

I know some will say "yeah but nintendo don't aim for gamers" "They're aiming for a different market"

So? and there are a lot of "gamers" that have a wii, it ain't only parents and kids.

Oh and price is also important although the 360 is cheaper than the wii, and if you take into account the accessories you need for the wii, it ends up really expensive.

So as long as the price isn't extortionate for what your getting, the lowest priced item won't always clean up.

But some seem to think if the ps3 was cheaper than the 360 it would clean up, it's not as simple as that.

[Haggler]

Originally Posted by SyStemDeMoN

PS1 cleaned up. Why ? Loads of games, and chippable.

360 started well. Why ? Flashable, so cheap games.

Wii doing REALLY well. Why ? Chipable, backup loaders available and very appealing to kids and the odd family get together.

Same with the DS and PSP really.

In my opinion its all down to weather you can get cheap games for the system.

People are WILLINGLY voiding their warrenty on expensive pieces pf equipment, so they can save a fortune in games.

I agree with most of the above aside from the PS2 (reasons explained below) and i think this does have something to do with it, however like has been said the vast majority of people probably have never modded their console.

Originally Posted by SyStemDeMoN

PS2 cleaned up. Why ? Loads of games, and chippable.

If this were the case then the dreamcast should have wiped the floor with it in the beginning as the games on it were far superior to anything the ps2 was knocking out at the time and on the Dreamcast chipping front, well you didn't even need to chip or softmod the thing in order to play backups, so this still baffles me.

The original Xbox also should have run rings around the ps2 too, the games on it were graphically far superior and a chip would set you back about the same or less than a ps2, then of course there came the softmod which made it irrelevant anyway, on the ps2 question i think the hype machine played a much bigger part.

Originally Posted by Miyazaki

I still dunno why dreamcast failed though! Best console ever.

Me neither.


I think the wii is the biggest success story and a different kettle of fish altogether, with it's flood of fitness software it is just different enough to entice the female of our species into indulging in the console where normally they would be saying "that money would be better spent on a new carpet".

[Jay]

Originally Posted by Haggler

i think this does have something to do with it, however like has been said the vast majority of people probably have never modded their console.

I think piracy really isn't as big or plays a big part as some would believe.

On forums like this people forget that we are in a minority. It's the same with 1080p etc, most people use crts.

As you say with regards to other consoles, some are infact easier to play backups and still don't do as well.

If infact piracy played such a big part the psp would have done well.

The fact is that piracy will make some people buy a console, but if everyone was to pirate games the console would die like the psp.

The majority buy games.

[SyStemDeMoN]

Originally Posted by Haggler

I agree with most of the above aside from the PS2 (reasons explained below) and i think this does have something to do with it, however like has been said the vast majority of people probably have never modded their console.

If this were the case then the dreamcast should have wiped the floor with it in the beginning as the games on it were far superior to anything the ps2 was knocking out at the time and on the Dreamcast chipping front, well you didn't even need to chip or softmod the thing in order to play backups, so this still baffles me.

This is a very good point and I do think that the fact the PS name was well established helped a lot. But the PS2 beat the dreamcast for sales because of a unique selling point at that time.

It is the same kind of selling point that has just decided the HD disc war, with blu ray winning.

The fact the PS2 was also a DVD player and the dreamcast was not WAS a major factor.

Originally Posted by Haggler

The original Xbox also should have run rings around the ps2 too, the games on it were graphically far superior and a chip would set you back about the same or less than a ps2, then of course there came the softmod which made it irrelevant anyway, on the ps2 question i think the hype machine played a much bigger part.

The xbox was a very good console, but it came out later than the PS2 and by the time it did emerge, the PS2 was already established. The xbox soon got around though after people got fed up with there PS2 dying, and word of mouth.

[SyStemDeMoN]

Originally Posted by Indecisive Jay

The fact is that piracy will make some people buy a console, but if everyone was to pirate games the console would die like the psp.

So maybe that is the reason for dreamcasts failure, If the thing had no protection.

[Jay]

Originally Posted by SyStemDeMoN

So maybe that is the reason for dreamcasts failure, If the thing had no protection.

That could well be.

I wasn't into forums etc at that time, and I knew nothing about attach rates etc.

It certainly wasn't quality lacking in the games, I loved my dreamcast, it was the first console for me to bring arcade quality games in my bedroom.

[CAS FAN]

So does power mean anything in the end?...

Hmmm It does and it doesn't. Games do not have to be complex affairs with detailed HD visuals, advanced AI, real world physics, high frame rates and technically advanced visual effects to be good.

On the other hand, more powerful hardware means that the developers can tackle games which would have previously been restricted by the hardware. Games which take place in detailed, complex open world environments need powerful hardware for them to be pulled off to a sufficient level. The more powerful the hardware then the more realistic and believable the world becomes. The AI characters become more advanced, the environments more detailed with more possibilities and the physics get to a level which is pretty realistic where things react as you'd expect.

With more powerful hardware we could eventually see real world environments that behave pretty much the same as in real life. If in a GTA game for example you shoot a wall then the brick would be damaged just as in real life and the bullet would travel through into the room and perhaps further damage stuff in that room. It wouldn't be a case of certain things can be damaged, but others are invincible. If you shoot a wall then you wouldn't just get a texture map which simulates a bullet whole. etc. etc....

Simulations would continue to benefit greatly and other genres like RPG's and RTS games would continue to offer more exciting and expansive worlds to play within.

Certain games wouldn't benefit as much (say your streetfighter games, platformers etc.) but some really would.

[Sinzer]

On your other points sinzer, I see what you're saying but there must be something in it that shows that the least powerful bit of hardware as always "won" the console wars.

I would make the following lay theory :

Less powerful hardware costs less money.

The product costs less to the consumer.

The consumer can easily be made to believe that Console A although in reality is less powerful, can do the same job as Console B.

Hence you have the situation with the Wii, significantly less powerful, yet most high street consumers would believe that it is capable of the same games as the 360 and PS3. They think that it is even capable of more gaming opportunities due to the funny little wiggle stick it has.

An interesting article :

Marti Barletta: Big Economic Opportunity in Marketing to Women - Advertising Age - CMO Strategy Columns

If women really do make 80% of the decisions then how does poor old jimmy ever get his PS3 He will definately be getting the Wii at Christmas.

How the Average U.S. Consumers Spend their Income

Kind of interesting to see what we spend most of our budget on. Also, relevant in that 35-50 is the most powerful spending group. Parents of kids buying christmas presents, are most parents expected to know the difference between Halo or Killzone?

It comes down to the fact that the people who have the real spending power, perceive that most of the consoles in a generation are more or less equal. Regardless what little Johnny writes on his wish list, they will likely go with the most cost effective solution.

Informed consumers will make other choices, but overall most consumers are ill-informed and simply perceive A is as good B and a little cheaper.

[Miyazaki]

At the end of the day if I can have my cake and eat it I will.

The Shenmue series for instance combined utter bewilderingly cock throbbing graphics along with seminal gameplay.

You can have one with the other.