[Jules]

I've had a Yamaha MG10/2 mixer for a bit now and it's ok.
However, recording low level vocals requires a fair bit of gain and getting anywhere near line level output results in too much hiss, even with only 1 channel in use and all the other pots down to zero.

So I'm looking for a mixer with much lower noise pre-amps. Ideally of course I'd like to be able to turn the gain and level controls right up without any hiss at all.

I'd be looking for something with 4 mic inputs and 2 or 3 stereo line level inputs.
Ideally this would be under £300.

Any suggestions?

[robfosters]

If you like yamaha's and are comfy with them, why not take a look at the MG166C?

[PJTX100]

I use an Alesis Multimix 16 USB 2.0. Top piece of kit, all the inputs you need, 16 track recording direct to hard drive, Cubase LE (and now Ableton too I think) in the bundle. Built-in effects too.

If the price is a it toppy the Multimix 8 should suffice...

MultiMix 8 USB 2.0 Integrated USB 2.0 audio interface and mixer

Silly money for technology that was five figures less than a decade ago.

[Jules]

Thanks for the replies guys.

I suspect the Yamaha MG16/6C you mention uses the same pre-amps as my current Yamaha mixer.. there just appears to be more of them, so I'm not too sure about that. If they are better quality though it would appear to be the perfect choice.

Do the Alesis mixers provide lower noise pre-amps than the Yamaha's?

Also, one thing I might find useful is having seperate monitor outputs on some of the individual channels because at some stage I'd like to allow vocalists to have their own voice fed back to them.

I don't think I need USB connections or onboard effects though.

[robfosters]

Jules,

I have just had a chat with a friend of mine who actually taught a sound engineering course.

He recommended a mixer called the Behringer Xenyx 2442FX.

He says preamp wise it's the best you're going to get for the money without going outboard.

It retails for about £250, so is well withing your budget

[Jules]

Thanks.
I hadn't considered Behringer... don't know why. That model certainly looks good for the price though.
I'll add it to the short list.

The Yamaha I have now gets very hissy when the pre is at about 70% and a quick google reveals alternating opinions on the superiority for Yamaha / Behringer.

What about Mackie?

[robfosters]

Mackie's are excellent, and they use XDR2 preamps which offer lots of headroom.

Price could be an issue as the 1402 is about £350, so a little over budget.

If push come to shove though, I would probably go for a Mackie.

[Iccz]

Originally Posted by robfosters

Mackie's are excellent, and they use XDR2 preamps which offer lots of headroom.

Price could be an issue as the 1402 is about £350, so a little over budget.

If push come to shove though, I would probably go for a Mackie.

+1 for a Mackie.

[Jules]

Another quick question guys....

Suppose the following:

- I'll be recording a vocalist (or 3) with the mics connected to my mixer, and the mixer connected to my PC running Cubase.
- I'll mix the vocalists in with a backing track in cubase, applying all the necessary effects in cubase.
- The vocalists will be in another room to isolate them from the noise of the PC
- I feed the vocalists a live mix from cubase via a headphone amp

So far so good, but...

I also want to be able to communicate to the vocalists from the 'control room' so I want to feed them my voice without affecting the main mix.

My initial thoughts are that to achieve this I need a 2nd mixer. The 2nd mixer would simply be fed the main mix, and I would add my microphone to that.
The output from the 2nd mixer would then be fed to the vocalists headphone amp.

I've thought about using the aux sends to get a 2nd mix, but because I need to mix in the output from the PC (which is in turn fed from the mixer) I would be getting a feedback loop.

So, is the simplest option to use a 2nd mixer, or have I missed something?

Thanks.

[Breezimus]

Another + 1 for the Mackie. If it's quality pre-amps you're after, you can't go wrong.

[PJTX100]

Originally Posted by Jules

Do the Alesis mixers provide lower noise pre-amps than the Yamaha's?

I'm not sure. They should be pretty good.

However I agree with the Mackie recommendations. I also have a small Mackie mixer which has clearly seen a lot of activity over its life but you can still tell it's a quality piece of kit.

[Iccz]

Originally Posted by Jules

I also want to be able to communicate to the vocalists from the 'control room' so I want to feed them my voice without affecting the main mix.

Why would you want to talk to them during any part of the recording etc?

Surely if something is not right you drop the levels and then talk to them as necessary?
If the vocals aren't right you're going to want to re-record them to get them spot on.
What would the 2nd mixer achieve, they'd still have one pair of headphones on that is feeding them the main mix?

[Jules]

You're probably asking some fair questions there Iccz. Let's see if my reasoning makes some sense.

Originally Posted by Iccz

Why would you want to talk to them during any part of the recording etc?

I wouldn't. But between takes I'd like to be able to talk to them easily without leaving the control room. You see I plan to record them in a separate room well shielded from external noise and the vocalists will be wearing sound isolating cans.

Originally Posted by Iccz

Surely if something is not right you drop the levels and then talk to them as necessary? If the vocals aren't right you're going to want to re-record them to get them spot on.

Although I don't plan to interrrupt a performance, it would be easier to have 2-way comms with isolating cans.

Originally Posted by Iccz

What would the 2nd mixer achieve, they'd still have one pair of headphones on that is feeding them the main mix?

This one's a bit tricky.
In addition to 2-way comms, I'd like to be able to provide the vocalists the choice of having their own voice fed back to them with or without effects using duplicate channels in cubase fed to seperate outputs on the PC and sequentially onto different inputs on the 2nd mixer.... all while still allowing me to listen to the main mix unaffected.
I can't think how else I could achieve this with a single mixer without creating a feedback loop.

I'm going dizzy thinking about it so I may be wrong and this either won't work anyway or could be achieved much more easily.


Anyway, back to my choice of mixer, I've gone for a Mackie 802 VLZ3. Reading around it seams to offer the same quality pre-amps as in their bigger ones in the range. It doesn't have many inputs but I think enough for what I need, and I can always double up with my old Yamaha mixer for less critcal parts of the mix if I need more.
I like the look of the Mackie too, and the routing / controls seam much more logical and easier to use than the Yamaha's.

[eviljohn2]

Many mixers already have a control talk back system incorporated already.

[Iccz]

Originally Posted by Jules

I wouldn't. But between takes I'd like to be able to talk to them easily without leaving the control room. You see I plan to record them in a separate room well shielded from external noise and the vocalists will be wearing sound isolating cans.

The vocalists will be wearing cans, and I'm assuming they'll be listening to the sends from your PC, unless your vocalists work without any kind of backing music?

Originally Posted by Jules

Although I don't plan to interrrupt a performance, it would be easier to have 2-way comms with isolating cans.

I'd imagine as a singer if you weren't happy with the vocals they'd prefer you to stop them before the sing the rest of the song to be told it needs re-doing.

Originally Posted by Jules

In addition to 2-way comms, I'd like to be able to provide the vocalists the choice of having their own voice fed back to them with or without effects using duplicate channels in cubase fed to seperate outputs on the PC and sequentially onto different inputs on the 2nd mixer.... all while still allowing me to listen to the main mix unaffected.
I can't think how else I could achieve this with a single mixer without creating a feedback loop.

For them to listen to stuff surely you'd just play it back to them after, they're not going to be listening to it while singing are they, if they are you can do this through a single mixer if you're sending them your PC feed.

I see your reasoning for a 2nd mixer, I guess you could look into it, as mentioned about you could look into talkback mixers or accessories, something cheap would do, for example:
BEHRINGER: MON800

[Jules]

Doh you're absolutely right. I was very tired last night and kind lost the plot. Of course, the PC output can include my mic anyway... What on earth was I thinking. Still the 2nd mixer could still be used as a headphone amp... But i realise now that's pretty much all i'd need it for.

Doh, I'm normally very clear thinking but last night i was in a right muddle.
Sorry.

What do you think of my mixer choice?

[Iccz]

No worries mate!

Looks like a solid choice, I think all the VLZ3 mixers they do come with XDR2 pre-amps which give very little noise and are ideal for what you require, ideal for very quiet vocals up to full on screaming should you require. Generally can't go wrong with a Mackie, you'll love it

[Jules]

I fired up my new Mackie 802-VLZ3 this evening, and I think it's a great little mixer.

It sounds better than the Yamaha, looks better than the Yamaha and the control room source switches are a great feature.
With the PC connected to the tape loop and the control room source switches set correctly, I can monitor the live return feed on headphones without creating a feedback loop on the main output.

Mackie have clearly thought through and executed this product in way that makes my old Yamaha feel a little cheap in comparison.

Thanks for the advice guys.

[makeluv247]

Good that you've found something, and I know I'm a bit late, but for future people that stumble upon this thread, look at the Alesis Multimix 8 Firewire (or USB 2.0). I have the firewire version, and it's great. 4 mic ins with phantom power, and 4 line ins (the mic ins can of course act as line ins). It's a lot smaller than all the alternatives too, as it doesn't have sliders. Anyway, that's my bit.

[aduro]

I am using a Mackie VLZ and the preamps are pretty quiet. I'll be slightly cautious about Behringer as a few years back, they had a ton of issues with reliability. The Mackie I have is still going strong after 8 years! Perhaps, the quality control of Behringer is better now...

Also, do check the shielding of your cables and whether there they are running near stuff and picking up interference? I always use Canare cables with Neutrik heads and they so far are perfect.

[sharger]

Behringer for me.... few good ones reviewed here DJ Mixer

[Iccz]

Originally Posted by sharger

Behringer for me.... few good ones reviewed here DJ Mixer

The DDM?
How solid is it? The smaller Behringer mixers I've seen have been quite flimsy, I never really liked their knobs they always felt like they were going to break if were used too hard/too often?

[sharger]

Originally Posted by Iccz

The DDM?
How solid is it? The smaller Behringer mixers I've seen have been quite flimsy, I never really liked their knobs they always felt like they were going to break if were used too hard/too often?

I know what you mean... a friend of mine had an older model (can't remember the number) and all I can describe it as was 'Fischer Price'!!

DDM is a different kettle of fish though... sturdy enough for heavyish use without the worry of breaking anything.. for the money you definately get a bang for your buck.

[Iccz]

Originally Posted by sharger

I know what you mean... a friend of mine had an older model (can't remember the number) and all I can describe it as was 'Fischer Price'!!

DDM is a different kettle of fish though... sturdy enough for heavyish use without the worry of breaking anything.. for the money you definately get a bang for your buck.

Yeah it certainly looks like it's well built from the pictures. Some of the new cheaper ones (still fairly pricey in terms of "budget" mixers) are so badly built. It's a shame because apart from the knobs and such they are great!

[Spirit]

Originally Posted by robfosters

Jules,

I have just had a chat with a friend of mine who actually taught a sound engineering course.

He recommended a mixer called the Behringer Xenyx 2442FX.

He says preamp wise it's the best you're going to get for the money without going outboard.

It retails for about £250, so is well withing your budget

Great choice- these are Mackie clones, but work very, very well!