[Matt_C]

There has been much critisising of Metallica's latest release, Death Magnetic, for being too loud and mixed badly, and suggestion that the Guitar Hero 3 version they released for download over the PSN store is superior...

So I decided to find out for myself.

First off, there is this;

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=DRyIACDCc1I&fmt=18

Now that says three things to me; 1) the volume on both versions is the same. 2) the CD version sounds muffled and "muddy", and 3) the GH3 version sounds clean, clear with lots of top end clarity.

So, after a hunt, I got hold of a full-fat lossless FLAC copy of the GH3 album (aswell as a compressed MP3 version) and pit them against my own CD version, that I ripped to 320k MP3 (purely cos it's easier to compare this way.

I did this in several places - I placed an MP3 192k rip from my own CD onto my ipod, aswell as the compressed GH3 rip (which is variable bit rate, between 160 and 192k). I put it in my van and tried it out (for specs, my ipod plays to my van stereo using 3.5 stereo jack from the headphone on the ipod to the AUX input on my stereo, ipod volume set to max)

Normally, most music is played between vol level 16-18, with 20 being if I want to crank it.

The CD rip @ vol 18 was LOUD! I could hear clipping in it on the really heavy sections, and it sounded sharp (especially the cymbals). Moving up to vol 20, bits of it made me wince slightly as it was incredibly "hard" on the ears.

So I tried the GH3 MP3's - OMG! What a difference! It has significantly quieter - to achieve the same audible volume as vol 20 with the CD rip, I had to crack the stereo to 30! Even then it wasn't as loud.

Quality wise it actually sounded better. Not as sharp, not as hard on the ears, the mix sounded better, although it didn't sound like it had an EQ on it. Even at almost the same volume as the CD rip, it sounded nicer to listen to.

So, back in the house and testing on the PC.

I loaded both versions into iTunes. I have iTunes set to near max volume (my hifi is at half volume) and the EQ set to ROCK, with the high end boosted just a tiny bit.

First, the CD Rip. Again VERY LOUD!!!! The clipping in the heavy sections was still present, but it sounded better than my van stereo from my ipod, as it wasn't as hard on the ears, and was nice and clear.

So, I tried the VBR GH3 MP3's - again, half the volume of the CD Rip, but surprisingly, it sounded muffled and flat! Nowhere near as nice sounding as the CD Rip. The clarity was gone, the low end was almost still there, but the attack of the drums was lost as was the cymbals.

Strange!

So, onto test number three!

Lossless Flac Vs CD rip MP3 320

This was done using VLC (so I could play the FLAC) and with no plugins or EQ settings. Volume set to 100% in VLC, hifi still the same

Again, huge difference between the two. Volume is 1st, with the FLAC at half the volume of the CD Rip (same vol level as the GH3 Mp3's). And the same result happened as it did with the iTunes test - the FLAC copy didn't sound as nice as the MP3. The "scoop" EQ effect was missing, it sounded flat and dull, and somewhat muffled. Vocals sounded low in the mix, attack from the drums and cymbals had gone. The only two negatives for the CD rip MP3 320 was that it was a) still too loud, and b) still getting clipping in the heavy sections.

Onto test number 4! - iTunes, CD rip MP3 @ 192 vs GH3 MP3 VBR (160-192)

In this test EQ was turned off, and I used the iTunes vol adjuster to change the volume of each set of tracks - CD rip was lowered -90% and GH3 was raised +100%. This gave them thereabouts the equivelent(sp) volume level.

Same result as before. CD version scored over the GH3 version. Clearer, more attack, brighter highs, tiny bit sharper, and fuller heavy sections, and the clipping was reduced to almost non-existent. The GH3 version still sounded flat, dull and muffled.

LAST TEST!

I loaded a CD Rip MP3-320 and a FLAC track into WavePad to visually look at the music.

Here's how they look;

This is the 320 MP3 CD Rip

And the FLAC lossless;

Look at the difference!

Also, Wavepad has a usefull stereo volume indicator at the bottom to show whats happening, and this is the result;

MP3 volume indicator

FLAC volume indicator

There is a HUGE difference in volume. Throughout the whole track it rarely ever dips below the red when playing the MP3, and the flac never gets NEAR the red during it's whole play!

But what I still don't get is why people are saying the GH3 version sounds better than the CD, when, if you take out the loudness of the CD, the CD has a better overall sound, and whats more odd is how the video I posted at the top (which I didn't make BTW) appears to be back to front - muffled sound attributed to CD and clear sound attributed to GH3 when in all the tests I did, the opposite was true....

Thoughts?

[karkus30]

Your a genius is my first thought

[Matt_C]

Erm, ok.......?

[witters]

My first thought is that you have way too much spare time Matt

[Matt_C]

Now that is VERY true Gimme a break, somehow I ended up with 4 days off and I had to do SOMETHING to stop me going out and spending money on things! LOL

But back to topic in hand!

[karkus30]

Originally Posted by Matt_C

Erm, ok.......?

Even posting that must have taken quite a bit of effort, never mind the actual experimentation, so it was a well meaning comment.

That was an awful lot of work and looks very complex. Mind you, I prefer broad overviews, all that detail makes my head hurt. Could you post a conclusion ?

[Matt_C]

LOL, fair enough I guess I was being a little OCD when it came to the comparrisons!

As for conclusion - both are rubbish, hows that?

No, seriously, I don't understand why people seem to be leaning to the GH3 version as being "better" than the CD, when IMO, the CD sounds better, albeit too damn loud.

However, when you look at the visual of what the music is doing, on paper, the GH3 version IS better.

Maybe it's because I like my music somewhat EQ'd - being an old skool metal head I am a huge fan of the old "scoop" EQ - lots of low end, lots of high end, and the mids faded down

So to me, the CD has that effect - lots of clarity on the cymbals and guitar "sheiks" (nee, harmonics ) with vibrating low end to pee off the neighbours....

However, it IS too loud, that is 100% fact. It needs to be lowered, and for my ipod, I'll probably rip it uncompressed (WAV), then lower the volume on all tracks by at least 50%, then re-encode the modified WAV's to 320kbps. These I will play from the computer, and the ones on my ipod will be downconverted to 192k, which I do on the fly when I transfer music onto it.....

So to sum up;

Both are as bad as each other - CD is too loud, clips/distorts and needs volume lowering to fix. GH3 is too quiet, and not enough EQ....

[Refrenz]

I'd agree 100% that the CD version is too loud, resulting in too much clipping and the GH3 version is as you said, too quiet. With that in mind I tinkered with the GH3 version and amplified all 10 tracks so they were all louder, but with minimal clipping (I clipped one tiny bit near the end of track 5, but the rest of the album remained unclipped but louder).

Like you, I like EQ with strong treble/bass and low mid but here's the problem with the CD ... they've overdone the EQ whereas on the GH3 tracks it may be a bit flat but at least this allows you to muck about with the EQ to your own taste.

[Toasty]

I've not listened to the CD yet, but the loudness issue is one of clipping and added distortion as refrenz mentioned. Matt, in your opinion, regardless of whether you like the album or not, does the loudness of Death Magnetic on CD detriment the actual audio quality?

[Tom3316]

its not just a question of it being loud, what it effects most in my opinion is when somethings highly compressed to achieve the loudness it takes away the dynamics of the music making it sound unnatural and uninteresting.

i think the actual instruments are recorded very well the album just has no dynamic range.

[wormvortex]

GH version defiantly sounds better. You can hear Rob's actual bass playing on it.

[reingam]

Too loud.....too loud - what is the matter with you peope!!!

Seriously though I know where you are coming for - this album in my opinion deos not sit well with low end speakers or headphones - on a set a full range speakers this album does not sound too loud but more full bodied.

On my computer speakers it's too loud but on my MA RS8's it's not.

Advice - turn it down if it's too loud but remember that it was mixed by an extremely talented producer and I don't think that the "loudness" is a mistake

By the way love the new album - best one since the black album I would say and I can hear Rob's bass no probs :D

[Matt2001]

Originally Posted by reingam

Advice - turn it down if it's too loud but remember that it was mixed by an extremely talented producer and I don't think that the "loudness" is a mistake

I haven't heard the album so can't comment, but I do remember reading on C4 teletext Planet Sound pages that the guy who was in charge of the mixing was unhappy with the sound of the CD and not at all proud of his work on it.

Found a link to the article-
http://www.drownedinsound.com/articles/4035014

[Matt_C]

It's not a volume thing, as in decibels, it's a LOUDNESS thing, as in GAIN..... The mix is too high in the gain stakes, compressed the hell and just too "loud", meaning it clips and distorts. Some say this was done specifically to capture a "raw, live" sound like you would experience at a small venue with a live band, but I'm not convinced at all. Take a band like Pantera, and "Far Beyond Driven" is an excellent example of thier work - they had no problem being loud, but sounded far far FAR better in terms of mix and EQ and compression.

I've noticed a lot of albuims of late becoming louder and louder, and I do think one reason is personal MP3 players - an awful lot of which have volume limiters. So I think CD's are trying to combat this by having the audio on them at a much higher volume. Problem here tho is two fold. 1) it sounds awful - as Reingam pointed out, on small speakers and headphones this just makes it worse. And secondly, it's just plain irresponsible! Kids will have ipods and the like on full blast cos of volume limiters, then this comes on and the sonic whiplash will kill them! lol....

[JohnG]

I'm not going to buy this CD yet as I've been reading of complaints all over the net. This from Rolling Stone:-

Even Ted Jensen, who is credited with mastering DM in the liner notes, admitted on a message board, “Believe me I’m not proud to be associated with this one, and we can only hope that some good will come from this in some form of backlash against volume above all else.” Jensen said the mixers of the album are to blame for the compression problems. Metallica is usually on hand for the mixing stage, but this time around they were away in Europe.

[jonnyv]

Which is the original version of Suicide & Redemption as on the CD?

Is it Suicide & Redemption K.H or Suicide & Redemption J.H. ?

The GH3 version sounds better to me

[Refrenz]

Originally Posted by jonnyv

Which is the original version of Suicide & Redemption as on the CD?

Is it Suicide & Redemption K.H or Suicide & Redemption J.H. ?

The GH3 version sounds better to me

I believe the CD verison is the K.H one.

[MChatterley]

Originally Posted by JohnG

I'm not going to buy this CD yet as I've been reading of complaints all over the net. This from Rolling Stone:-

Suprises me that they didn't have any kind of input into the mix. I'd have thought they would have wanted toout an awesome record as the last 3 have been ****.

Mix aside, I totally love the new album and the new tracks sound awesome live

[reingam]

Hmmmm I done some more listening to this album since reading this thread and I'm going to have to retract my previous post

I listened to this album on a pair of MA RS8's powered by an Onkyo 905 on Direct and played through a MarantzDV7600 - a set up that should have no probs playing any type of music.

The Day That Never Comes - almost unlistenable at the start at vol. 70. It calmed down a bit half way through and I started to enjoy the sound

All Nightmare Long - The compression almost lends itself to this song and overall sounds excellent with the clipping noticeable in only a few parts

Cyanide - The compression/clipping again was evident but due to the low end nature of this track it was not too bad and again listenable

Unforgiven III - the start is amazingly clean in comparison with the rest of the trackes above and overall the best sounding track. If you pretend that your listening to a "sepia" version of Metallica then it's spot on

The Scorpion (Megadeth - The System Has Failed) - OMFG - listened to this after listening to the above tracks and it's a disgrace. Death Magnetic sounds like it was recorded with a casette player and microphone!

Aside from that the new album is absolutely awesome but it should defo be remastered and reissued

[YooEntSinMe]

I've got the 5 LP set on the way. I wonder if that will sound any different?