[Dave Weystoner]

I've just realised that all 6 CDs in my car player at the moment could be classified as prog rock: 2 x Lamb Lies Down on Broadway, 2 x Joe's Garage, One Size Fits All and a Yes compilation. Is one's selection for the car a refection of one's true tastes? I know I'm getting long in the tooth, but I hadn't noticed that I had regressed quite so much. Is this how it starts? How long before I go all the way back past prog and start longing for Vanilla Fudge, The Nice, Country Joe etc and then on to, God help me, Pat Boone, The Inkspots and The Laughing Policeman?

Must get out me Kaftan and beads.

Dave

[stasis]

Is that on 8 track?......Relax, there's nothing to be embarrassed about there. The Lamb is still one of my favorite albums, it is due to be released along with the other Genesis Gabriel era albums on SACD in November, you never know it might become fashionable again.
Have you still got your own hair? If I remember rightly the kaftan and beads look is crowned by a dodgy hairstyle. You wouldn't want to look silly know would you.
regards stasis.

[Dave Weystoner]

Thanks for the support Stasis. My Lamb CD is an Argentinian Virgin import bought on Amazon, and I must say the sound quality is not what I remember from the vinyl version - very sibilant, and the strident tracks sound like Peter Gabriel is singing through a school sports day Tannoy system. I've still got the album in the loft, along with my old 401/SME/V15. It's tempting to set it up again, if I can borrow a phono preamp, and do some A/B comparisons.

Dave

[Matt_C]

I like prog, but I'm from the "nu skool" or prog - other than YES, I've never heard of anyone in your first post (except Pat Boone, but only cos of his comedy records!)

I'm far more recent than all that tho, probably cos I'm only 26! Dream Theater, Lamb Of God (prog-ish metal, gotta love it!), Porcupine Tree (cross between a proggy Radiohead and Opeth, without the death metal part), Opeth (VERY-prog Death Metal!), Floyd (obviously), Mars Volta, that kind of stuff....

Can't beat a bit of Porcupine Tree to unwind to and the end of a long day, or Opeth to make you think, or Lamb Of God if you just wanna get i na voilent mood! DT are an all-weather prog band, some is quite prog, some isn't, some is very technical, some less so.....

I do like it when music makes you think

[brian s]

There's no way I would regard Zappa as prog rock. The man was outstanding in a way most prog rockers couldn't even begin to touch.

All the best
Bri

[quarry2006]

Originally Posted by Matt_C

I like prog, but I'm from the "nu skool" or prog - other than YES, I've never heard of anyone in your first post (except Pat Boone, but only cos of his comedy records!)

I'm far more recent than all that tho, probably cos I'm only 26! Dream Theater, Lamb Of God (prog-ish metal, gotta love it!), Porcupine Tree (cross between a proggy Radiohead and Opeth, without the death metal part), Opeth (VERY-prog Death Metal!), Floyd (obviously), Mars Volta, that kind of stuff....

Can't beat a bit of Porcupine Tree to unwind to and the end of a long day, or Opeth to make you think, or Lamb Of God if you just wanna get i na voilent mood! DT are an all-weather prog band, some is quite prog, some isn't, some is very technical, some less so.....

I do like it when music makes you think

You've never heard of Genesis? They had a lot of hits in the eighties; can't believe you missed them. Without them we'd have had none of the bands you're listening to now. Yes, Genesis have a lot to answer for, really (I can't bloody stand "nu prog").

And Zappa? He's a new one to you too? Blimey; trade in all your Dream Theatres and Porcupine Trees for one Zappa album. You'll never look back.

[Matt_C]

No I've heard of Zappa and Genesis - but I did say I hadn't heard of anyone in the OP's first post

[karkus30]

Originally Posted by quarry2006

You've never heard of Genesis? They had a lot of hits in the eighties; can't believe you missed them. Without them we'd have had none of the bands you're listening to now. Yes, Genesis have a lot to answer for, really (I can't bloody stand "nu prog").

And Zappa? He's a new one to you too? Blimey; trade in all your Dream Theatres and Porcupine Trees for one Zappa album. You'll never look back.

Genesis were far from being the band that inspired todays prog metallers. I would say that it was Pink Floyd,King Crimson and not forgetting the Moody Blues/Beatles welded to Black Sabbath and Iron maiden. Genesis were certainly part of that scene along with Yes, Jethro Tull, The Nice and ELP.

There is a debate as to what prog music in the 21st century actually is. I can certainly hear prog elements (as they were in 1970) in DT, Porcupine Tree and to some extents Tool. But mostly its metal and you can hear the beginnings of it in a few examples by Yes(yours is no disgrace)and King Crimson (Larks Tongues) with ELP really going for a heavier sound.

I dont think many mainstream bands are truly progressive, they are more like echoes of the past. Bands like Battles and Nerve (with Jojo Mayer) are beginning to drive things in a new direction, progressive music that is borrowing far less from the past (probably the reson that many people struggle with it) and the neo classical bit has been dumped in favour of more modern strands of music such as D and B, HipHop and Rap allied to the true genius of Don van Vliet and Zappa.

[overkill]

Originally Posted by karkus30

Genesis were far from being the band that inspired todays prog metallers. I would say that it was Pink Floyd,King Crimson and not forgetting the Moody Blues/Beatles welded to Black Sabbath and Iron maiden. Genesis were certainly part of that scene along with Yes, Jethro Tull, The Nice and ELP.

There is a debate as to what prog music in the 21st century actually is. I can certainly hear prog elements (as they were in 1970) in DT, Porcupine Tree and to some extents Tool. But mostly its metal and you can hear the beginnings of it in a few examples by Yes(yours is no disgrace)and King Crimson (Larks Tongues) with ELP really going for a heavier sound.

I dont think many mainstream bands are truly progressive, they are more like echoes of the past. Bands like Battles and Nerve (with Jojo Mayer) are beginning to drive things in a new direction, progressive music that is borrowing far less from the past (probably the reson that many people struggle with it) and the neo classical bit has been dumped in favour of more modern strands of music such as D and B, HipHop and Rap allied to the true genius of Don van Vliet and Zappa.

Tbh it's difficult to define 'what' prog was? Although it was widely chastised (by the media) in the late 70's and 80's, it was never 'one sound' that involved lot's of, to quote one music biz ****head, 'tons of meaningless noodling'.

The scene was so diverse, and yes Zappa was part of it, that it took in Jazz, neo-classical, heavy metal, electronica, folk (shudder), and with bands as wide apart as Tangerine Dream and Spyrogyra under it's umbrella it's hard to say, who, if any of them, influenced the likes of Tool et al, in any but the most general way. I find it hard to see how the likes of Dream Theater are classed as prog at all? They sound to me like a less mainstream version of VH rather than a band influenced by the likes of KK, VDGG, etc.

As such I agree that while there is a progressive 'air' about say, the likes of Tool and Opeth, in that they are willing to experiment with keyboards, multi layered vocals, weird time signatures, etc, they are not prog as it was between 1967 - 77.

Progressive yes, 'prog' no.

[Dave Weystoner]

Thanks for your replies, though I have no knowledge of the 'nu-prog' bands many of you have mentioned: my dalliance with the 70's era bands led me in a different direction, through players like Bill Bruford and Chick Corea, into jazz. Keith Emerson's piano playing on Brain Salad Surgery directly led me to a lifelong search for the perfect jazz piano track that would recreate the excitement of Keith's playing- Keith Jarrett, Michel Petrucci, Brad Medlhau, Bill Evans et al.

When I go back to Genesis and Zappa, I can trace my jazz preference in the tracks that I like/don't like.

Dave

[karkus30]

You should have a listen to Screaming Headless Torso combines Jazz, Funk and Rock.

[stasis]

[QUOTE=overkill;7760603]Tbh it's difficult to define 'what' prog was? Although it was widely chastised (by the media) in the late 70's and 80's, it was never 'one sound' that involved lot's of, to quote one music biz ****head, 'tons of meaningless noodling'.

I thought prog rock was anything that your girlfriend thought was wierd because you couldnt dance to it.
regards stasis.

[karkus30]

[QUOTE=stasis;7763745]

Originally Posted by overkill

Tbh it's difficult to define 'what' prog was? Although it was widely chastised (by the media) in the late 70's and 80's, it was never 'one sound' that involved lot's of, to quote one music biz ****head, 'tons of meaningless noodling'.

I thought prog rock was anything that your girlfriend thought was wierd because you couldnt dance to it.
regards stasis.

That makes all music weird if I have to dance to it

[Toon-man]

Prog Rock............Close To The Edge..by Yes sums it up.... brilliant...

[overkill]

[QUOTE=stasis;7763745]

Originally Posted by overkill

Tbh it's difficult to define 'what' prog was? Although it was widely chastised (by the media) in the late 70's and 80's, it was never 'one sound' that involved lot's of, to quote one music biz ****head, 'tons of meaningless noodling'.

I thought prog rock was anything that your girlfriend thought was wierd because you couldnt dance to it.
regards stasis.

Well, I can't 'dance' to 'dance music', so....................

[quarry2006]

Originally Posted by karkus30

Genesis were far from being the band that inspired todays prog metallers.

You could be right there; Genesis were far removed from any band who value musicianship over the beauty of a pithy tune. All I hear in the self-professed prog bands of today (and lets not forget the strides Genesis took to distance themselves from that moniker and any other band labelled with it) is cold, hard, soulless virtuosity. But then, I never liked Rush for exactly the same reason and there are many here who rave about them, too.

Progressive should mean a desire to move beyond the accepted norm. The traditional prog bands of the seventies were anything but progressive, staying the same from album to album (Yes were prime offenders in this but I've always found them oddly appealing).

[Mac Man]

check this out...

http://www.ents24.com/web/event/1581...s_Of_Rock.html

Focus, Wishbone Ash and the Groundhogs in one bill!!!

Focus.... now there's a classic prog band. Can't think of any other band that's done 'yodel metal' and make it sound great

[Philly112]

Originally Posted by quarry2006

Progressive should mean a desire to move beyond the accepted norm. The traditional prog bands of the seventies were anything but progressive, staying the same from album to album (Yes were prime offenders in this but I've always found them oddly appealing).

Hi Stefan!

In my opinion Yes reached their pinnacle in 1975 with Relayer; it's been downhill ever since. I think it's still one of the great albums regardless of genre. That album put me onto Mahavishnu etc...
Still a great live band though (although they are touring the US later this year with a 'karaoke' singer from a tribute band replacing Jon Anderson )

Phil

[witters]

If we're talking prog then let's not forget Marillion - especially the early Fish stuff. More recently Mostly Autumn are well worth a listen. Breathing Space are an offshoot of MA and have their merits.

Neither Yes nor Genesis ever did it for me I'm afraid! Her indoors has all the Genesis stuff on vinyl and some ELP as well.

[huwg]

Originally Posted by witters

If we're talking prog then let's not forget Marillion - especially the early Fish stuff. More recently Mostly Autumn are well worth a listen. Breathing Space are an offshoot of MA and have their merits.

Neither Yes nor Genesis ever did it for me I'm afraid! Her indoors has all the Genesis stuff on vinyl and some ELP as well.

But would you agree that there are definite similarities between Peter Gabriel era Genesis and 'early' Fish Marillion - (The Knife / Forgottten Sons & Supper's Ready / Grendel)

[witters]

Originally Posted by huwg

But would you agree that there are definite similarities between Peter Gabriel era Genesis and 'early' Fish Marillion - (The Knife / Forgottten Sons & Supper's Ready / Grendel)

Possibly so - I certainly would not discount it. Genesis never did anything like Clutching At Straws though - one of my all time fav albums.

[huwg]

Originally Posted by witters

Possibly so - I certainly would not discount it. Genesis never did anything like Clutching At Straws though - one of my all time fav albums.

I went to see Marillion in '87when they toured Clutching at Straws (It Bites were the support band)
Fish came onstage to Slainte Mhath, did a series of high kicks then like a true pro finished the song before going off stage to change the trousers he had just ripped

[overkill]

Originally Posted by Philly112

Hi Stefan!

In my opinion Yes reached their pinnacle in 1975 with Relayer; it's been downhill ever since. I think it's still one of the great albums regardless of genre. That album put me onto Mahavishnu etc...
Still a great live band though (although they are touring the US later this year with a 'karaoke' singer from a tribute band replacing Jon Anderson )

Phil

Best yes album? Got to be 'the yes album'. After that 'Fragile' and 'closer to the edge'. I can see why people would think the latter, and 'Tales from twaddle' were a bit 'airy fairy' but 'the Yes Album' really rocks - despite the crap song titles.

I like 'Relayer', but it does go on a bit on side one! After that, when Wakeman returned they got much tighter and 'Going for the One' and 'Tormato' are much less flabby then the earlier stuff. 90125 takes the hippy edge right off the material and is a pop/rock classic in it's own right.

After that it's pretty much a worn out band regurgitating the same themes, in various incarnations.

Tbh I don't listen as much to Yes as I did, as their Canadian counterparts are lyrically in a different league, and currently on a different plane playing wise.

Shame I missed them last time they toured.

As for Marillion, who brought them up!

[quarry2006]

Originally Posted by Philly112

Hi Stefan!

In my opinion Yes reached their pinnacle in 1975 with Relayer; it's been downhill ever since. I think it's still one of the great albums regardless of genre. That album put me onto Mahavishnu etc...
Still a great live band though (although they are touring the US later this year with a 'karaoke' singer from a tribute band replacing Jon Anderson )

Phil

Hey, Phil!

For me, the Yes story has been a series of ups and downs. I thought they reached a peak with Close To The Edge and that Tales was a mess. Relayer was Close To The Edge part 2, but (apart from Sound Chaser, which I think is amazing) there seemed to me to be a lack of groove (although Gates Of Delirium is slowly working on me). I agree with Overkill that Going For The One saw a much more focused band returning to the studio (Awaken is one of their best, I think) but Tormato is very uneven (Circus Of Heaven anyone? Arriving UFO?). With Trevor Rabin they may as well have renamed the band and it's only since he left that they have returned to what they're best at (albeit to ever diminishing returns).

I was sad to hear of Jon's illness as I'd hoped to catch them on this tour but there's no way I'll see them with anyone other than Mr Anderson fronting the band. I cannot believe they've hired a singer from a tribute band - that's got to be the worst mistake since Trvor Horn.

Best Yes album? Close To The Edge.

By the way, Phil, good to see you got a mention in for the mighty Mahavishnu!

[overkill]

Originally Posted by quarry2006

Hey, Phil!

For me, the Yes story has been a series of ups and downs. I thought they reached a peak with Close To The Edge and that Tales was a mess. Relayer was Close To The Edge part 2, but (apart from Sound Chaser, which I think is amazing) there seemed to me to be a lack of groove (although Gates Of Delirium is slowly working on me). I agree with Overkill that Going For The One saw a much more focused band returning to the studio (Awaken is one of their best, I think) but Tormato is very uneven (Circus Of Heaven anyone? Arriving UFO?). With Trevor Rabin they may as well have renamed the band and it's only since he left that they have returned to what they're best at (albeit to ever diminishing returns).

I was sad to hear of Jon's illness as I'd hoped to catch them on this tour but there's no way I'll see them with anyone other than Mr Anderson fronting the band. I cannot believe they've hired a singer from a tribute band - that's got to be the worst mistake since Trvor Horn.

Best Yes album? Close To The Edge.

By the way, Phil, good to see you got a mention in for the mighty Mahavishnu!

Agree about Tormato. It has some good tracks, but it's mainly an album that shows the cracks appearing again. Wakeman left shortly afterwards, followed by Anderson.

Hate to say it Quarry, but I saw Yes with Rabin, and AWBH live in that period, and the former blew the latter away.

Agree on Mahavishnu. Great band, the classic period of 'Inner mounting flame' and 'Birds of Fire' in particular.

I didn't realise Jon Anderson was ill!

[quarry2006]

I can see how the Rabin-led band were tighter, having heard some of the live stuff from the Big Generator tour on their first boxset as well as the 9012Live album there's no doubting Rabin's prowess as a guitar player. I just felt, rightly or wrongly, that Yes's collective heart was not in playing those kinds of songs.

The roriginal tour dates for Yes had to be cancelled because Jon suffered serious respiratory problems. I see from the currernt news that he's not best pleased about the decision to carry on without him. And why should he be? Yes are the only band, in my mind, whose lead singer has proven irreplacable.

And here's another vote to the Inner Mounting Flame/Birds Of Fire era of Mahavishnu as being their finest moment.

[Dave Weystoner]

Anyone remember the Italian prog band PFM? I still have The World Became The World somewhere on vinyl. Now there was a band that was seriously up its own retto, and whose golden age was right on the freefall that ended with Punk.

I saw Focus at Bounemouth in the mid-70's. Thijs van Leer had his flute nicked from their dressing room and delayed the start by an hour or two, which was unheard of then - even Van the Man was never that late.

Dave

[overkill]

Originally Posted by quarry2006

I can see how the Rabin-led band were tighter, having heard some of the live stuff from the Big Generator tour on their first boxset as well as the 9012Live album there's no doubting Rabin's prowess as a guitar player. I just felt, rightly or wrongly, that Yes's collective heart was not in playing those kinds of songs.

The roriginal tour dates for Yes had to be cancelled because Jon suffered serious respiratory problems. I see from the currernt news that he's not best pleased about the decision to carry on without him. And why should he be? Yes are the only band, in my mind, whose lead singer has proven irreplacable.

And here's another vote to the Inner Mounting Flame/Birds Of Fire era of Mahavishnu as being their finest moment.

Fair enough. I would say though, that 90125 and Big Generator Yes, was not the prog band of the 70's. White was a session musician and as such not fussed on what he played, Tony Kaye was the original keyboard player in Yes, and had no roots as in prog. Rabin was a pop/rock guitarist. Only Squire and Anderson were key band members from the 70's period. When I saw them live Squire certainly seemed to be enjoying the freedom to play in a lost bombastic fashion. It's also noticeable that he alone chose to avoid what became the AWBH re-union. But there you go.......

Agree totally. Yes without Anderson isn't Yes!

Birds of Fire is one of the all time great albums period. If only ego's didn't get in the way that band, which was both individually and collectively brilliant, would have delivered even more!

[quarry2006]

I did enjoy the ABWH album, I must say (although the material that they contributed to the overproduced mess that was the Union album wasn't too hot).

Philly112 has a couple of books on John McLaughlin and is more clued up on the history of Mahavishnu Orchestra than I am. He introduced me to a wealth of McLaughlin solo material last year for which I am forever indebted to him but other than that I only have the first two albums by the band. Seems that they're considered the best they had to offer anyway so I'm in no rush to complete the collection.

It is interesting, though, as to what leads people to prog. My journey started innocuously enough with Phil Collins's No Jacket Required. That led to Genesis, obviously, and from there to Yes, King Crimson and Van der Graaf Generator. I detoured, then, into jazz and haven't looked back since.

[Philly112]

Originally Posted by quarry2006

.Philly112 has a couple of books on John McLaughlin and is more clued up on the history of Mahavishnu Orchestra than I am. He introduced me to a wealth of McLaughlin solo material last year for which I am forever indebted to him but other than that I only have the first two albums by the band. Seems that they're considered the best they had to offer anyway so I'm in no rush to complete the collection.

Stefan

I would definitely buy Visions of the Emerald Beyond by MO. It is McLaughlin's favourite from that period and has some great stuff on it.
Totally different to the earlier band though. But I know you like Jean Luc Ponty, and he is just amazing on this album. And Mclaughlin has rarely sounded rockier. Like most of his stuff, it is essentially a live studio recording with very few overdubs that I can hear. And the Columbia remaster sounds fine.
And also the latest McLaughlin release - Floating Point - is a very good album. He plays mainly synth guitar, which many don't like, but I guess he sees it as 'progress'. Recorded in a few days in India with mainly Indian musicians, yet it is miles away from the Shakti band.
And just for interest, he is touring with Chick Corea later this year in what seems to be a fantastic band - Vinnie Colaiuta on drums for one. But only one UK date of course

Phil