[karkus30]

I seem to be getting irrevocably drawn back to progressive music. I think its the pay off for more and more lack lustre bands piling onto the local supermaket shelving.

When I say progressive. I mean modern progressive, otherwise its not progressive at all.............going back to listening to Genesis, Pink Floyd, King Crimson, Yes etc is REgressive.

So, what about todays prog rock bands that are in the limelight......Tool, Opeth, Porcupine Tree, Dream Theater.....are they really progressive.

I have been trying to work out why I just dont get Dream Theater at all, but I like Tool. Why ? But I have eventually worked it out, these bands are really not progressive at all, they simply feast on the innards of bands that have gone before and then they go and mix it all with metal.

This is why I struggle with some bands over others.

For instance, Tool remind me of Metallica and Sabbath, big pounding riffs that appeal to my brain and added to a King Crimsonesque prog sound. But Dream Theatre carry out a similar trick but seem to add the Van Halen element to the mix.

Two types of metal sound.....one I like and one I don't.

It started me looking around the internet, surely there must be some pure progressive music around ? I found several articles on the same subject and then some gentle pointers........

Well most prog bands back in the 70s had little to use as a reference for their style of music. Mostly, they looked at Classical and Jazz composers for inspiration, thats why the bands were so different from one another despite all being broadly labelled 'prog'. Yes didn't sound like Genesis, Floyd didn't sound like Van Der graaf Generator, ELP didn't sound like King Crimson.

The modern bands just mix from those original pallets and mix it up with 80/90s metal and in several cases they add the horrible vocal style.Virtually all the bands performing now add the twin bass drum assaults which get on my wick and either the well formatted doom metal guitar riff or the Van Halen mega tapping high speed widdle fest.

Where are the pure prog bands.........and no Spocks Beard well I came across a few pearls, so I thought I should at least share the meagre haul

I found five bands in an obscure article and went and had a listen. Im not saying these are the ultimate bands, but they do follow the old 'prog' ideals while adding their own twist...........now remember what I said about prog bands being widely different, well these dont quite range that far from each other, but neither are they clones. Strangely, listening to at least two of the bands gave me the distinct impression that I was somehow finding the end of a big knot of rope that I had discarded in about 1982.........

I have not posted links, if your interested go and do a serch as there are plenty of downloads and streaming media from each bands official sites.

Try:

Anglagard
Anekdoten
Hoyry Kone
Deus Ex Machina
Echolyn

I promise you a PURE prog experience that will take you right back to your roots........no Van halen, no Metallica and definitely no monster vocals.

[overkill]

Just a question of personal taste really Karkus..............

I like Tool, probably for the same reason you do, but what's happened with a lot of the bands you've mentioned is they've gone prog rather than been prog from the start. Porcupine Tree are much more 'alternative' in their early days, Opeth pure death metal. Neither were prog. Very much then in the vein of the original prog outfits. Yes, Genesis, Tull, Floyd weren't prog bands to start with, they became prog in the early 70's. Crimson are the only ones of that batch who were prog from the start, and they were far more 'out there' than the others, and hence while less commercially successful, they are much more interesting.

As such the new bands do have a few things in common with their 'elder statesmen'.

If these new bands are 'hard core' prog I think I'll give them a miss. Much of the really hard core prog in the 70's and 80's (Spyrogyra, Eloy, Asia etc) was pretty much unlistenable to........

Tell me I'm wrong?

[karkus30]

Originally Posted by overkill

If these new bands are 'hard core' prog I think I'll give them a miss. Much of the really hard core prog in the 70's and 80's (Spyrogyra, Eloy, Asia etc) was pretty much unlistenable to........

Tell me I'm wrong?

I would give them a listen, does no harm........this isnt that sort of prog

http://www.echolyn.com/multimedia/04_make_me_sway.mp3

http://www.anekdoten.se/web2001/samp...f_life-wtd.mp3

I'm hoping you have the right PC setup to play them

[huwg]

I have been known to worship at the alter of prog... last night I used a voucher for a free iTunes song (good old BK), and got Van der Graaf's 'Nutter Alert' from the recent album 'Present'. They haven't changed much from the mid '70's (either a good thing or a bad thing depending on your point of view). Pretty solid track, but not what you would call a progression.

I never really got into Yes or Genesis, I found them rather 'twee' but I really enjoy Floyd and to a lesser exent VdGG. I think it is that nasty edge that I like, (Floyd had it with Animals), I'd probly like King Crimson but have only ever owned 'In the Court....'

I really like Tool, and selected Porcupine Tree. I've not really got into Dream theatre - I think it is that US Metal Van Halen thing that puts me off.

Which brings me onto The Mars Volta. They are a tricky one to classify, especially last years 'Amputechture'. That was all over the place, but much closer to 'pure' prog than their previous albums. It also had elements of Presence era Led Zep, and a fair dose of VdGG....

What's gone wrong with prog rock?

Probably the hardcore fans if I'm being honest. Have a look at the forums and reviews especially on progarchives (my venue of choice for streaming when I'm bored) to see what I mean.
Arguments about wierd time signatures and into which sub genre would you put 'Magic Carpet' (Indo-Prog/Raga Rock apparantly or is it 'proto-prog' ? ) They also seem to look down on anything non-prog, which certainly doesn't to the genre (and its 18 sub-genres, I have counted them) any favours.

Here's a snippet of a King Crimson review to illustrate my point...
"...."Level Five" segues nicely into "Eyes Wide Open," a simple but effective ballad in the style of the balladic material on "Three of a Perfect Pair." This leads into "Elektrik," which opens with a cute, quasi-brass opening. Then, using contrapuntal guitars as a "foundation," Fripp and Belew lead the band in a "guitars vs. rhythm section" composition in which Gunn and Mastalotto alternate two radically different rhythms while the axmen play a series of contrapuntal quarter, eighth and sixteenth notes. Although mildly overlong, it is oddly compelling..."
A great description, but what about the music? what does it make you feel like?

I'm off to listen to Muse/Radiohead/Tool/TMV or maybe 'Nutter Alert'

[eviljohn2]

I think Prog Rock has always just been average with sparks of brilliance.

I'm not too familiar with many of hte bands that have been mentioned but am very into Tool and Pink some of Pink Floyd. I've got "In Absentia" by Porcupine Tree and think it's bland and missing any kind of inspiration. I've tried to like it. I really have but it just didn't happen.

I suppose it just boils down to music being less progressive overall having had 80 years of popular influence.

[karkus30]

Originally Posted by huwg

I have been known to worship at the alter of prog... last night I used a voucher for a free iTunes song (good old BK), and got Van der Graaf's 'Nutter Alert' from the recent album 'Present'. They haven't changed much from the mid '70's (either a good thing or a bad thing depending on your point of view). Pretty solid track, but not what you would call a progression.

I never really got into Yes or Genesis, I found them rather 'twee' but I really enjoy Floyd and to a lesser exent VdGG. I think it is that nasty edge that I like, (Floyd had it with Animals), I'd probly like King Crimson but have only ever owned 'In the Court....'

I really like Tool, and selected Porcupine Tree. I've not really got into Dream theatre - I think it is that US Metal Van Halen thing that puts me off.

Which brings me onto The Mars Volta. They are a tricky one to classify, especially last years 'Amputechture'. That was all over the place, but much closer to 'pure' prog than their previous albums. It also had elements of Presence era Led Zep, and a fair dose of VdGG....

What's gone wrong with prog rock?

Probably the hardcore fans if I'm being honest. Have a look at the forums and reviews especially on progarchives (my venue of choice for streaming when I'm bored) to see what I mean.
Arguments about wierd time signatures and into which sub genre would you put 'Magic Carpet' (Indo-Prog/Raga Rock apparantly or is it 'proto-prog' ? ) They also seem to look down on anything non-prog, which certainly doesn't to the genre (and its 18 sub-genres, I have counted them) any favours.

Here's a snippet of a King Crimson review to illustrate my point...
"...."Level Five" segues nicely into "Eyes Wide Open," a simple but effective ballad in the style of the balladic material on "Three of a Perfect Pair." This leads into "Elektrik," which opens with a cute, quasi-brass opening. Then, using contrapuntal guitars as a "foundation," Fripp and Belew lead the band in a "guitars vs. rhythm section" composition in which Gunn and Mastalotto alternate two radically different rhythms while the axmen play a series of contrapuntal quarter, eighth and sixteenth notes. Although mildly overlong, it is oddly compelling..."
A great description, but what about the music? what does it make you feel like?

I'm off to listen to Muse/Radiohead/Tool/TMV or maybe 'Nutter Alert'

Looks simple enough to me Thats the trouble with 'in depth' musical discussions, they dont make a lot of sense to anyone unfamiliar with the basics. Its a bit like looking at a graph of speaker performance for a HiFi, it tells you little about its sound in the real world where emotional impact is such a large part of musical response. You can infact, create music to elicit emotions in the listener almost like alchemy. All the keys are known to the average composer and if your fluid in the language then a someone versed in the same language would understand perfectly.

King Crimson changed a lot after COTCK. Fripp took the reins and began to change the music from a more baladic/epic feel to a more Jazz inspired direction............dissonance and all that stuff that makes things interesting.

Larks Tongues is as good a place as any to start as you get some indication of where bands like Tool found their inspiration, but Red, Starless and Bible Black, Discipline and beat are all as good. Each one builds on the next.

After that they started with Three of a perfect pair and it was at that point I stopped buying. Its watered down crimson and has dated horribly (thats the 80s alright) IMO.

Out of all the prog bands of the seventies (barring Pink Floyd who I really dont think are prog at all), only KC and VDG get a listen..........Its interesting that Mr Rotten was a bit of a supporter of VDG during his Sex Pistol Days.

[overkill]

I'd go with that Karkus. Floyd are labelled as 'prog' but they aren't really. Floyd are a rock band with 'acid' lyrics. They never got into all the weird time signature changes and orchestration that marked you down as 'prog'.

A lot of people only really think of COTCK. Yet, as you say Larks Tongues is more 'real' in terms of what Fripp wanted, and Starless and Red build on that. Brufords drumming added to Fripps guitar leads to some really odd things happening...............

I think I mentioned that VDG are touring in April-May? Again VDG are 'off the wall' and the Godbluff, Still Life, World Record sequence is more relevant than some of the earlier stuff - bar 'least we can do'.

I'll check out those websites when I get the chance.

[huwg]

I'd never really consider Floyd as being prog, but with their long compositions they find themselves pigeon-holed.
I was being rather harsh with my commentson that review; I understand the terminology but I used it to highlight what I consider to be s superiority complex with some of its followers (hasn't all music genres got this issue though?). The discussions I've read go along the lines of "drummer x is better than drummer y because he uses more difficult time signatures, full stop, no argument". Surely that is like buying a hi-fi component based on a lab report, it ignores the soul of the music.

I will check out Larks Tongues....
damn you for starting this thread ..... I must listen to Bad Religion.

[dc007]

Last Prog album I bought was SMPtE by Transatlantic. Still gets a fair bit of airplay. They were a 'supergroup' amalgamation of a few well-known names... Well worth a listen, IMHO...

[karkus30]

Originally Posted by overkill

I'd go with that Karkus. Floyd are labelled as 'prog' but they aren't really. Floyd are a rock band with 'acid' lyrics. They never got into all the weird time signature changes and orchestration that marked you down as 'prog'.

A lot of people only really think of COTCK. Yet, as you say Larks Tongues is more 'real' in terms of what Fripp wanted, and Starless and Red build on that. Brufords drumming added to Fripps guitar leads to some really odd things happening...............

I think I mentioned that VDG are touring in April-May? Again VDG are 'off the wall' and the Godbluff, Still Life, World Record sequence is more relevant than some of the earlier stuff - bar 'least we can do'.

I'll check out those websites when I get the chance.

Overkill, you have a listen to VDGs live performance of Darkness (not The ) Peter Hamill.........what a voice. This a really good piece of footage from the early years with good sound.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDmhP6YiN6s

[pmc]

Would the Ozric Tentacles be considered prog rock? If so, they are still going strong (though they are hardly new).

[karkus30]

Originally Posted by huwg

The discussions I've read go along the lines of "drummer x is better than drummer y because he uses more difficult time signatures, full stop, no argument". Surely that is like buying a hi-fi component based on a lab report, it ignores the soul of the music.

I will check out Larks Tongues....
damn you for starting this thread ..... I must listen to Bad Religion.

Like most things drumming can be rated on technical prowess or simple feel. I favour the latter, a drummer that can groove and enhance the music like Josh Freese for instance is far more enjoyable than the guy who can only throw in his chops like a drum machine or alter time signatures at will.

One day you will listen to Bad Religion

As for KC heres one I made earlier . http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0S4-VA-0zY

[huwg]

ok, Larks Tongues will be purchased (or failing that, ordered) tomorrow.
I also need Godbluff

I'm currently playing Arcade Fire - Funeral, I may be slow, but I get there in the end
why can't I just buy cd's when they are first released? I miss out on months of enjoyment.

[karkus30]

Originally Posted by huwg

ok, Larks Tongues will be purchased (or failing that, ordered) tomorrow.
I also need Godbluff

I'm currently playing Arcade Fire - Funeral, I may be slow, but I get there in the end
why can't I just buy cd's when they are first released? I miss out on months of enjoyment.

New Arcade Fire album can be ordered via their website on pre release......get in first.

That bit I posted was from the album RED by the way, but you get the idea of what they sound like.

[huwg]

Originally Posted by karkus30

That bit I posted was from the album RED by the way, but you get the idea of what they sound like.

Yep, I sussed that bit.
Of the trio (LTIA, SABB, Red) I think I'll attempt them in sequence. In fact I'm just streaming a selection of theirs off progarchives right now...... Dinosaur off Thrak is currently playing.

You were right about Peter Hammill on that VdGG clip, what a voice.

[Simon6776]

How about the Flower Kings? Best albums (IMO):

1. Stardust We Are
2. Space Revolver
3. Flower Power
4. Retropolis
5. Unfold The Future
6. Paradox Hotel

http://www.flowerkings.se/

[Nike]

The best thing I've heard for ages that I would describe as 'prog' is Return To The Mirror by Winterstrain.
Truly excellent band & I've seen them do the whole album live.

There are a few decent bands out there with proggy leanings, even if they are not all out "Prog".
Mostly Autumn,Magenta,The Reasoning.
All these bands are worth a listen IMHO.

[Matt_C]

I'm the complete opposite - I ADORE Dream Theater, but never really got into Tool....

Dream Theater, for me, are one of the most perfect bands ever, and there is very little, if any, of their stuff I don't like. Their latest studio album, Octavarium, is, IMO, a true modern masterpiece. Six Degree's Of Inner Turbulence, the second disc with the 42min title track, is also epic, as is Metropolis Part 2 : Scenes From A Memory - which is a simply stunning concept album...

They mix virtually everyting I look for in a band - from a musicians point of view they, collectively, are at the complete top of their tree, and are some of the most technically spot on musicians in the business today. Musically, I love their sound, the complete about-turn approach to song writing, the sometimes randomness of direction and style changes, the varied sound and style, coupled with a somewhat personal taste, but still fantastic male vocalist...

Mike Portnoy (Drums) is a hero of mine, and I have been a drummer for many years now, tho not played live with a band for several years, and I strive to be as good as he is. John Petrucci (guitars) is a complete god IMO, and I am totally in awe of him. And Jordan Rudess is just stunningly amazing in everything he does - anyone who has seen the SCORE DVD will know how completely multi-talented this man is, and he just defies belife in his playing...

I like very much the aspects of many bands they have within their own sound, whilst all the while retaining an individual sound, and not just ebing a rip off band.... You can hear a lot of Pink Floyd, Rush, Yes, Metallica, Pantera, Muse, etc in them, but all the while it is laced with their own signature, and isn't just carbon copies of other peoples work or sound.....

Top top top top top top top top band

[Franco50]

Originally Posted by mjmostly

There are a few decent bands out there with proggy leanings, even if they are not all out "Prog".
Mostly Autumn,Magenta,The Reasoning.
All these bands are worth a listen IMHO.

I certainly agree with you on Magenta - I personally love their music. As you say, some of their material is not truly prog although I can hear quite a bit of Yes, Marillion, Renaissance and early Genesis coming through in the instrumental parts. The fact they have the wonderful Christina on vocals gives them an identity of their own though.
Wasn't the word 'progressive' or 'prog' just a label the 70's music journos slapped on these bands simply because they (the journos) felt they had to pigeon hole them somehow? Bear in mind bands like Yes, Genesis and the Floyd were in existence before the word prog appeared on the scene.

[karkus30]

Originally Posted by Matt_C

I'm the complete opposite - I ADORE Dream Theater, but never really got into Tool....

Dream Theater, for me, are one of the most perfect bands ever, and there is very little, if any, of their stuff I don't like. Their latest studio album, Octavarium, is, IMO, a true modern masterpiece. Six Degree's Of Inner Turbulence, the second disc with the 42min title track, is also epic, as is Metropolis Part 2 : Scenes From A Memory - which is a simply stunning concept album...

They mix virtually everyting I look for in a band - from a musicians point of view they, collectively, are at the complete top of their tree, and are some of the most technically spot on musicians in the business today. Musically, I love their sound, the complete about-turn approach to song writing, the sometimes randomness of direction and style changes, the varied sound and style, coupled with a somewhat personal taste, but still fantastic male vocalist...

Mike Portnoy (Drums) is a hero of mine, and I have been a drummer for many years now, tho not played live with a band for several years, and I strive to be as good as he is. John Petrucci (guitars) is a complete god IMO, and I am totally in awe of him. And Jordan Rudess is just stunningly amazing in everything he does - anyone who has seen the SCORE DVD will know how completely multi-talented this man is, and he just defies belife in his playing...

I like very much the aspects of many bands they have within their own sound, whilst all the while retaining an individual sound, and not just ebing a rip off band.... You can hear a lot of Pink Floyd, Rush, Yes, Metallica, Pantera, Muse, etc in them, but all the while it is laced with their own signature, and isn't just carbon copies of other peoples work or sound.....

Top top top top top top top top band

Its not 'carbon copies' which IMO prevent them being progressive. Like Tool they have simply mined the seam of music from the past proggy bands and added 'metal' overtones. There is no doubt they are talented musicians, but there is no attempt to revisit the fundamentals of music. If you listen to DT or PT or Tool or Opeth you identify more than a little similarity. Listen to Yes then listen to Genesis and the difference is obvious. Things have not moved on, I think perhaps we will never see that level of musical evolution, the 70s were the hey day of progressive development.......some would be happy with that

[KoThreads]

Originally Posted by karkus30

some would be happy with that

Yes Karkus I am, that's why I havent said a word in this thread. You are spot on

Yes I do like a lot of modern stuff, but it's all been done before.

[Geege]

I've always been a bigger fan of the more traditional metal, hard rock, death, black, thrash etc.. so I don't really know what prog rock is???

I watched Rockworld.TV last night and they showed "Within Temptation". Is this prog metal/rock? If so it's crap!

Paul

[karkus30]

Originally Posted by paul_gilmour

I've always been a bigger fan of the more traditional metal, hard rock, death, black, thrash etc.. so I don't really know what prog rock is???

I watched Rockworld.TV last night and they showed "Within Temptation". Is this prog metal/rock? If so it's crap!

Paul

Thats more symphonic goth rock. Progressive music started in the early 70s. Have a listen to Van de Graaf Generator, King Crimson, Yes, ELP and Genesis as starters. Later music from Tool, Dream Theater and Opeth is on the same lines but fused with metal. These later bands dont really push the progressive angle onwards, but at least they have a more modern sound.

A word of warning..........dont expect to head bang to these bands, loud they certainly are, but the odd time signatures remove the ability to go with the age old four on the floor style beats that flood all of pop music.

[karkus30]

Originally Posted by Idoexist

Yes Karkus I am, that's why I havent said a word in this thread. You are spot on

Yes I do like a lot of modern stuff, but it's all been done before.

Its why I spend a lot of time with quirky music like Ween.

[Geege]

Originally Posted by karkus30

Thats more symphonic goth rock. Progressive music started in the early 70s. Have a listen to Van de Graaf Generator, King Crimson, Yes, ELP and Genesis as starters. Later music from Tool, Dream Theater and Opeth is on the same lines but fused with metal. These later bands dont really push the progressive angle onwards, but at least they have a more modern sound.

A word of warning..........dont expect to head bang to these bands, loud they certainly are, but the odd time signatures remove the ability to go with the age old four on the floor style beats that flood all of pop music.

Ok, thanks, that clears things up for me, I like Opeth though.

[quarry2006]

All this new prog stuff leaves me a little cold to be honest. Where's the soul, where's the humour? Certainly both ingredients were a part of Genesis and early Floyd, respectively.

I think the pioneers of prog - Van der Graaf, Crimson, Yes and Floyd (Genesis jumped on the band wagon and swiftly jumped off when the game was truly up) - were vastly different whilst these new bands sound pretty much of a muchness to me.

I do agree, though, that the main problem with prog is not the bands themselves but the fans. Just for jolly, register on, say, the official Genesis forum and post a thread praising the horns on No Reply At All on their Abacab album and see what chaos ensues.