Just thought I'd seek others' views regarding the above issue which I've been wondering about for ages.

I listen to a lot of hardhouse and trance dance music which is, other than vocals, exclusively produced electronically.

When I've been demoing kit and when I've spoken to a number of different hi fi stores (decent ones I hasten to add), a lot of people have said 'It's not worth playing it through decent hi fi as it has no 'real' soundstage and is simply replaying computerised sounds'.

Although I realise certain music will bring out the best in hi fi and although we all know radio stations like Radio 1 sound worse due to the compression used, is it not still the case that it IS worth buying decent kit even if you're going to listen to music that, potentially, was made on a cheap PC?

On the opposite side of the arguement, I've also read that certain dance music CDs actually show off frequencies that 'normal' music generally don't tend too.

The CD I've heard referred to most in this respect is The Prodigy's 'Fat of the Land'. I've also read that this CD makes an awesome burn in disc.

What do you guys think?

[Jase]

I tend to listen to more Dance music than any other type, although I do have a wide ranging taste. I think you´re spot on with The Prodigy´s disc and indeed a lot of the other dance music/trance discs the low bass can be quite amazing!!

With Trance/Dance discs you can get a good stereo soundstage, background vocals floating about between speakers etc but I wouldnt say they have depth as such, but that could be down to the actual mix.

On the classic stuff that I´ve listened to (not many!!) you can pick out the different types of instruments within the orchestra and where they are sitting. Some have low bass as well like the strum of double bass´ etc

The only drawback with decent kit is it shows up the craply recorded stuff, which is most of the dance music discs I own!! Some arent too bad though.

[slingshot]

I listen to a lot of alleged dance music through my HiFi A - Because I like it and B - It sounds better than most other forms of music.

The production of almost all the dance music I own is better on average than a lot of the pop garbage. I agree about the prodigy, but also try stuff from Faithless, Groove Amada and Massive attack, then compare it with Oasis, s-Club (OK I was lent this and don't own it).

I'm not sure about hard core dance, because it's fun in clubs but not really something I listen to at home.

Ok no dance music through hifi, just walkmans I can just believe some "decent" stores would say this, which is of course complete nonsense.

Dance music uses a good deal of the frequency range, which is an ideal candidate for better quality speakers, amps e.t.c

Computerised sounds? Considering everything on CD goes through a sampler at the end, not to mention banks of effects processing, that doesn't leave us with much choice, does it?

The sheer amount of devices being "played" in an average dance track means that without good equipment, the soundstage can be completely muddled.

If I'd listened to dealers like that, I'd never know how track like the orbs "little fluffy clouds" sound moving the cones on my kef refs

Hi juboy
I to would have to agree with slingshot with regards to standards of production.
I have found Drum to Bass to be perfect for a Demo of your kit, hifi or a/v and the only reason that i can think of that these stores are tell you that they have no sound stage is because they are to scared that you may kill their Speakers or sub with some evil LFE.

Samir
I also know a number of DJ's who are involved in writing and producing of Drum & Bass and these guys are using some heavy weight Kit. Gone are the days of putting tracks together on an old Atari ST.

Originally posted by Samir
Gone are the days of putting tracks together on an old Atari ST.

Yes. Now they use Commodore Amigas and I have heard that some of the pro's have 2Mb (or sometimes even 4Mb!!) of RAM

Nice to see there's some dance music fans here

I (not surprisingly) tend to agree with you guys. Although I do have a fair amount of 'real' music amongst my collection, it is mainly the hard dance stuff that really make my system come alive.

It seems to me that with most dance music I listen to the frequency range is greater, the treble is a little crisper and higher and the bass, well, obviously goes waaaaaaay deeper and lower than most 'real' music would ever do.

When I demo kit I usually take the following tracks:

'Everyday' Agnelli & Nelson
'1998' Binary Finary
'Instru(Mental)' Nick Sentience & BK
'Hooked' 99th Floor Elevators

What I personally like about them is the dynamics of each track, ranging from the classic HUGE breakdowns to big bass stabs and then the faster, hectic main parts of the tunes.

Give me that over demoing 'Now 56' anyday!

[micb3rd]

Yep I am a fan of dance music, I like hard house and Trance, there are some good songs out there.

Of course some dance songs can be a good test of hifi, the tester just has to know the song and listen out to how diffrent speakers and syetems play it.

How about a CD like Leftfield - Leftism a disk with some awesome sounds.

You can't blanket all Dance and House music together under the same hat saying that they are not a good test of music.

[thudspud]

Hello

juboy, you the man, you have some great demo tracks there, "Everyday" is one of my all time favourites!!!

I too have heard people saying that decent hi-fi is of no benefit to dance music but I think it is complete rubbish, It is still music.

Anyway, going off topic abit, Here are a few of my all time favourite dance tracks.

1) Lost Tribe - Angel
2) Jam & Spoon - Stella
3) Energy 52 - Cafe Del Mar (Three N One Mix)
4) Solar Stone - The Calling (Inner Peace Mix)
5) Agnelli & Nelson - Everyday (Vocal Mix)
6) Art of Trance - Madagascar
7) LSG - Hidden Sun Of Venus (12" Mix)
8) Sasha & Maria - Be As One
9) Jan Johnston - Silent Words (Lyric & Natali Mix 1)
10) Plaid - Rakimou
11) Terra Ferma - The Adventures of...
12) Sunscreem - Please Save Me
13) BT - Flaming June


I am sure there are a thousand more!!!!

Cheers

Chris

500-600 tunes all on vinyl from 88 96 (the best period) and i could not care less how a dance cd sounds

[Ian J]

Hi Sean, good to see you back

Seany Boy: I have some Technics through an old Nad C320 and some Tannoy R1s... and a similar amount of vinyl to play through it all.

That doesn't help me too much when auditioning CD players though

Personally, I thought the halcyon days of dance were 1997 to 2000... a time when trance ruled the World! Although that said, this summer is going to be massive for trance again, just about all the latest round of 'superclub' CDs have been trance based.

Thudspud: Energy 52 - Cafe Del Mar, what can I say... genius track. How about Atlantis Vs. Avatar 'Fiji'? And not forgetting System F's 'Out of the Blue'. Classics, the lot of 'em!

[Bonesy]

yeah, and all with samples and breaks nicked from the original hard dance from 89' to '92. Seany boy, I'm with you on this.

"and all with samples and breaks nicked from the original hard dance from 89' to '92"

Take something good... and make it better

It's all gone a bit Pete tong if you ask me if you were there from the start, to be a witness of the birth of a hole new force in music, that was very much underground and looked upon as antisocial by the media, who now have columns called rave and then hearing drum and bass on biker grove while looking after my nephew and seeing beer heads stumbling to orbital's 'Belfast' in the Hac, you just knew the bubble had burst. tunes like 'peace and harmony' 'sweet sensation' 'take it easy' 'where love lives' 'strings of life' 'sweet harmony' you can't guild Lilly's juyboy

Really commercial these days, the soul's been torn out of it. I first went to ibiza in 89 and the last time was 99, and it is just not the same place. sasha, carl cox, and pete tong have all said the same thing.

I still love dance, all forms apart from happy hardcore (not hard core) fcukin garbage.

It was what it was....

[cybersoga]

I can reccomend Orbital - The Alltogether (DTS) on DVD, it sounds awesome on my home theater setup.

What really annoys me is that when you go to a club/party/rave and they either have a) a crap soundsystem that's being overdriven and distorting badly or b) a good soundsystem that's had the bass and trebel turned up so far you can't hear the midrange at all. I like to listen to music (including dance music) as it was recorded, i.e. flat EQ... but i've never met a club sound engineer who doesn't turn up the bass and usually the trebel aswell. Turning up the trebel is even worse, especially if the speakers can't handle it, you get a horrible screetching sound. Also there's the issue of getting tinnitus (ringing in the ears) and damaging your hearing just because the sound engineer wants you to go "****ing hell that's loud". These days i wear special musicians earplugs when clubbing that cut the sound by 15db accross all frequencies (unlike normal ones which make the music sound ****), so I don't have to suffer from tinnitus and I can still enjoy the music.

maybe i'm just getting old.

cybersoga: I know exactly what you mean about club sound, generally the club will try and impress/shake your kidneys with the bass levels but sometimes you'll get someone trying to convince you their system is 'clear' by turning the treble as far right as the knob will go.

That said, clubs were never the best place to actually hear the music... if that makes sense?!?

Seany Boy: I agree with you in a lot of ways. One of the best things about dance music is that it does go through 'periods' of different genres being at the forefront and it's great that people who hated 'dance' music 10 years ago might now love it and vice versa.

Personally, I only really 'connected' with the music when the euphoric euro trance hit big... sure, there's little actual soul to it but, Jesus, there's a fair bit of emotion! I think it's the feeling and mood of the clubs/your mates as well. I had the best times listening to that kind of music... Garage, Progressive House and French Disco stuff leaves me cold, it's just too boring.

Seany, have you ever been 'at that moment' in a club, with 5 or 6 close mates in a similar state and heard Binary Finary's '1998' come through the system? Ahhhhhhh, pure, unadulterated heaven!

I do like a lot of the older tunes also, although they do seem a little tame today. Gat Decor 'Passion', Oceanic 'Insanity', Liquid 'Sweet Harmony', Zero B 'Lock Up'.... great stufff.

I don't hate trance i like trance. It's still not the biggest form of house though, then again goldie himself said when he made timeless, said he just thought it was house, he loved house and he wanted to make house records. people just lable it. It's all house to me he said, and i agree with that really.

When i said the soul has been riped out of it, i never meant the music, more the hole meaning of it. Did you know factory records never owned the rights to any of their artists? it was about the music . they could walk when the wanted. There was was a contract signed in blood declaring "we owe nothing" I know i keep saying it, but factory owned the HAC and that was the first super club, and the most famous of them all. And i tell you hand on heart i know you have never ever, been anywhere that comes close to that place.
I think it closed and factory went bust, because they was not hard nosed business man. Buy guys with a dream. Now it's all trance nation volume blah blah MOS volume 50 it's money money money.

MC kanh and dug bug & plastic jam 'made in 2 minutes' genaside ll "narra mine' (as far from tame as you can get) friends of Mathew "the calling' (You know, see me, feel me, love me want me touch me) i always thought insanity was a bit charty myself. shades of rhythm 'sounds of Eden' illustrious 'dance no more', and many other's. one of the best tunes to come down to just has to be the 'sun rising' by beloved or orbital 'Belfast' 'Inner city life' by goldie is an absolute work of art. the bootleg of Massive attacks unfinished sympathy was a stormer. creative thieves 'nasty rhythm' (sasha's mix) i could go on and on and on.

But like everything else it's subjective, everybody i know who's been on the scene since the begining thinks it's not what it was. I mean sasha started out in a pub in ashton called buggsy's, he came to manchester because of the scene, the guy who owned buggsy's owned a club called the thunderdome he started doing Saturdays, he went on to the man alive then to the Hac. He has said that he owe's a lot to Manchester and a man named jimmy sherlock who gave him a break in a little boozer in ashton

For me it was liking being at the big bang, an event that has taken over the world.

But that world has become polluted,and over populated

I know you'll think this is a big jump, but what you're describing is similar to my feelings about the 'new' Star Wars films when compared to the original trilogy... in that I belive it's the era that defines something, not just it's worth taken out of context.

It's also similar to my view of Kiss (a non dance music aspect of my listening tastes). I never saw them live in 1977-79 because I would have been too young and they pretty much didn't tour the UK. Now, when they did the reunion tour it was actually better in terms of size, quality, playing ability, effects, sound etc. than the early days but the 'magic' wasn't really there.

The problem was that in the 70's they ruled the chart, the ruled the media and their image was everywhere (Stateside at least). That means EVERY concert was like a semi-religious experience for a lot of fans.... now, it's just another show from another band, albeit a little more entertaining than most.

The thing is, for new, young fans, the music seems fresh(ish) and the show is immense. They didn't really know the legacy as much and therefore their frame of reference was totally different.

I think the same is true of clubs, take a young Trade, Frantic or Sundissential fan back in time the the Hacienda and they'd probably not really like it. Not because it's 'better' or 'worse' but because it's success and appeal is rooted in a different era.

As I said before, what I find interesting about dance music is that versions of the genre become big, then fade, then come back (old school being the obvious example) to win new fans and then fades away again.

Using samples from the old tunes is cool, it keeps them alive, sparks interest and ultimately leads to new forms of dance music. Let's face it, the old tunes had already nicked plenty of stuff from even older tunes in the first place!

I take your point that money does now have a lot to do with the scene, which is not really surprising. Anything remotely successful will eventually develop a commercial side and this has happened with MoS intially and others subsequently. I would argue though that the likes of Danny & Madders at Sundissential are NOT in it for the money primarily... the desire to create something special and unique is still strong in dance music.

Well it's well and truly overground now, it had to happen, things move on. Still the best thing to happen for youth culture in this country. They said it would not last... How wrong they were

Still can't listen to anything else but house (every form) when i'm out, never been out in a pair of pants and a tie in my life, and i don't intend to

I hope you don't wear white gloves and wave a glow stick

Good stuff chaps.
If i had to pick a tune which does it every time, then i'd pick.....

Fingers Inc. 'Can U Feel It'

A pure slice of classic electronic manipulation.
Still sounds awesome 2day, and such a simple arrangement.

Other killers include:

LFO - LFO
FSOL - Papua New Guinea
King Bee - Back By Dope Demand
Planet Rock - Afrika Bambaataa
Newcleus - Jam On Revenge
Adonis - No Way Back
EON - The Spice
JVC Force - Strong Island
Frankie Knuckles - Let The Music Use U
808 State - Pacific State

Great tunes.

Adzman

I went to school with andrew barker from 808 state, from the same part of manchester as me, they use to do little sets at ancoats lads club before they were big. Pacific state was the only tune i liked.

back by dope demand is a rockin tune. do you remeber 'must be the music' by them?

What a co-incidence Seany Boy as I went to school with Petula Clark

*Cow slinks away to look at old school photos*

so that makes you a silly old cow then

[dts_boy]

do you know Sanky's then? the golden nights they used to do were the BEST! that was the days where Judge Jules was still underground and not so cheasy and crap. BTW, don't listen to the guys in the shop when they say that dance musics will sound crap thfough real hifi, i went to a 7oaks store and they were playin some killer drum and bass - they are all pretty much into dance/drum and bass etc and say that the only reason they don't play it a lot is it scares the elder folk! (Don't want to get anyone into trouble or anything though, so don't quote me on it )

Of course mate i was brought up on the street just behind it. Did you know the fall the smiths and the roses the mondays use to practice above it long before it was sanky's soap, and many other famouse bands, bugged out was also held there before they moved to cream. I also forgot to say that maddona did her first uk gig at the HAC and that club is the only uk club to appear on the cover of TIME in US.

I keep saying it the hac beats them all, cream gate crasher M.O.S money penny's, back to basic's manumission el davino pacha, even the mighty space

I've done em all many times and other's, and they don't come close

[dts_boy]

you are indeed right, i only ever went to HAC once, but it was better than all other clubs. it was a unique experience and really put Manchester on the map. gatecrasher my second fave though!

[Bonesy]

seany boy, you star, bug khan and the plastic jam.

the girl that really got me into the scene way back when was mates with them, her flatmate was going out with the big white guy, (can't remember his name now-what does that tell you about thenights? ) and we used to hang around with them.

absolute great song, good rapping.

[kevb]

I remeber the first time I walked into a club playing ACID in november of 87. I was so blown away. I tought WOW what is this music.

That was when I first started buying house music and got really intrested in being a DJ. I first learned to mix on DJ slipmats form SL2's old decks. Played a few small clubs from 1987 to 89. Did OK at it but in the end I had to get a proper job.

I think from 87 to 95 was a golden age for house and dance music in general the like of which we wont see again. There's still good stuff around now, but like everything is just recyled old ideas.

I bought some Mordaunt-Short Speakers and the Manual recomends Dance music to run them in with.

Ran in my Monitor Audio Silver 8i's with Leftfield's
Rythmn & Stealth....

Leftfield were innovators.

Shame they split.

Adzman