Pal 50 & Pal 60

[LV426]

The two things aren't related at all. PAL50 as a conversion from NTSC is applied in the same way irrespective of whether the signal is 16x9 shaped or 4x3 shaped. The electronics don't know the difference. The only difference is in the CONTENTS of the signal - not in the signal itself.

An anamorphic signal has more definition than a non-anamorphic one - always - whether it is PAL50, PAL50-converted-from-NTSC, NTSC or PAL60. All other things being equal.

A PAL DVD will always produce a PAL50 signal. This is correct, and involves no conversion. You see exactly what is coming off the disc. 576 lines on the disc; 576 lines on the TV. 50hz refresh rate, 50hz on the TV (maybe doubled to 100).

An NTSC DVD should be watched either in true NTSC or PAL60 depending on the equipment. 480 lines on the disc, 480 on the TV. 60hz refresh rate on the disc, 60hz on the TV.

Showing an NTSC DVD in PAL50 involves a conversion process. In cheap DVD players, it is (unsurprisingly) not very sophisticated. The 480 lines on the disc are re-scaled to 576, often not very accurately. The end result is typically LESS resolution than the original. The refresh rate is changed from 60hz to 50hz which usually results in frames being dropped.

In other words, conversion degrades the image, and is best avoided.

As for Smart mode - it is there solely for 4x3 material and distorts the image to fit it onto a 16x9 screen. As a purist, I consider distortion to be best avoided. You should never use it for anything that is not 4x3.

[figrin_dan]

Originally posted by nigel
In that case, your TV is maladjusted for 525/60 (or, NTSC, which, for this purpose, includes PAL60).

Kind of, the tv just could not handle NTSC which is why I was using PAL60.

loz99
I've just noticed you are using a Sony tv. This will display NTSC fine. Just set your dvd player output to 'Auto', (Either in the setup, or on a switch on the back).
This will display NTSC as pure NTSC and PAL as pure PAL and both will be the best picture you can get. Your TV will know which is which and change accordingly.

[LV426]

Originally posted by figrin_dan
Kind of, the tv just could not handle NTSC which is why I was using PAL60.

PAL60 and NTSC are, for the purposes of evaluating the TV's adjustment, exactly the same. They both have a 525-line, 60hz structure for the picture. And, if (all other things being equal) things are a different shape between a genuine PAL50 signal (off a PAL disc, say) than off an NTSC disc, displayed either as true NTCS or PAL60, then the TV is out of adjustment for one or the other - most probably it is wrong for 525 lines, 60hz. The structure of the image should not affect its shape, on a properly adjusted TV.

[loz99]

So What you mean Nigel is Pal 60 is the equivalent
of NTSC when displayed on a native European Tv set up.

My Sony Tv's being Pal Tv's that are NTSC Friendly can actually
display NTSC as NTSC??
I have always set my dvd player to Pal Output ie as my default
was this incorrect considering my tv capabilities. Re.figin_dan

Another thing that confuses is this. When I was purchasing
my 100hz 32" Sony. An old mate of mine (Tv Engineer as it happens) said to me that 100hz tvs are only a benefit when
100hz is being transmitted from the reception source whether
it's Tv Station or dvd. Also that the maximum Hz a dvd can transmit is 50hz.
So what is the benefit of 100hz if this is the case??

loz99

[Mr.D]

cripes remind me never to get your TV engineer out to fix my kit!

There are two issues going on here.

PAL/NTSC are composite colour systems. Its just the way the colour signal is encoded . A dvd player generate whatever colour signal you want from the information on the disc ( which is encoded in component neither PAL not NTSC).However it will be encoded as a specific image format

The image format can either be 625/50 or 525/60.(lines/fields) Europeans tend to use 625/50 with a PAL colour carrier. Americans tend to use 525/60 with an NTSC colour carrier.

However the image format has no direct relationship to the colour signal ( lets keep it simple eh guys?) So there is nothing stopping you from having say a 525/60 signal with a PAL colour frequency ( normally reffered to as PAL60). As I said itd just a function of the player.

Nowadays most TVs in Europe are on the wholeperfectly happy with either a 625/50 image or a 525/60 one. What they may not handle is an NTSC colour frequency. So if you are using svideo or composite and you get a black and white picture from a region1 disc chances are your TV is incapable of decoding NTSC colour.

All is not lost because as mentioned before we can just change the colour signal to a PAL one....bingo you'll get a nice 525/60 colour image.

If you want the best quality you'll use RGB or componenet which don't even use composite colour encoding and again should work just fine on your non-NTSC set.

However what if your set can't handle a 525/60 signal? You'll get a rolling black and picture and your only hope is to perform some sort of awful standards conversion on the image to turn it into 625/50 ( normally what PAL50 will do to a 525/60 image)

So in closing: decent TV use RGB or component and you wonm't have to worry about PAL/NTSC.

If you have an ok TV that will handle 525/60 but not NTSC and no component or RGB inputs ( highly unlikely to be honest) then use PAL60 for region1 material.

POS TV that only handles 625/50 PAL you'll need some sort of transcoding ie PAL50 ( | say buy a new telly)

[LV426]

Originally posted by loz99
So What you mean Nigel is Pal 60 is the equivalent
of NTSC when displayed on a native European Tv set up.

Yes, really to restate what Keith says:

A TV picture can be defined in three factors:

Number of lines: NTSC = 525 (480 used); PAL = 625 (576 used)
Number of fields per second (refresh rate): NTSC = 60, PAL = 50
Method of adding colour: NTSC = NTSC; PAL = PAL.

These factors can be mixed up. a PAL60 signal is actually a mixture. 525 lines, 60hz, but a PAL colour carrier.

Converting the colour carrier from one to the other is technically simple and doesn't result in any deterioration of the signal.

Converting line and frame rates is technically more problematic, and requires clever processing to be done well. Cheapo DVD players do it, but not especially well.

In terms of overall PQ, therefore, a PAL60 signal, produced from an NTSC disc, will be indistinguishable from true NTSC. Only the colour carrier is changed.

Originally posted by loz99
My Sony Tv's being Pal Tv's that are NTSC Friendly can actually
display NTSC as NTSC??

If this is the case, your DVD player should be set to Automatic (Auto) which produces true NTSC from NTSC discs, and PAL from PAL discs. No conversion occurring in either case.

Originally posted by loz99
Another thing that confuses is this. When I was purchasing
my 100hz 32" Sony. An old mate of mine (Tv Engineer as it happens) said to me that 100hz tvs are only a benefit when
100hz is being transmitted from the reception source whether
it's Tv Station or dvd. Also that the maximum Hz a dvd can transmit is 50hz.
So what is the benefit of 100hz if this is the case??

loz99

Absolute drivel. All UK TV signals (from ANY UK source) are PAL, 625 lines, 50hz. Nobody produces or transmits 100hz.

Put simply, a 100hz TV takes an incoming 50hz signal (from any PAL source) and stores each field or frame and then displays each one twice in succession, instead of once. Hence the refresh rare is doubled and visibility of flicker is reduced. Some 100hz TVs do more, but basically this is it. All PAL TV signals start life at 50hz.

[SpliffCartel]

Quick question. I use RGB on my Phillips 6006 28" TV from a Pioneer dvd350 drive. If I use pure NTSC the colour seems noticeably higher than if I am watching a PAL dvd or PAL60 on an NTSC dvd. If what has been said above is true (RGB does not use composite colour encoding) this shouldn't happen right?

[LV426]

I guess not (although I'm not 100% sure). Is it at all possible that, although it seems, from the settings etc, that you are using RGB, you are, in fact, using composite?

Originally posted by SpliffCartel
Quick question. I use RGB on my Phillips 6006 28" TV from a Pioneer dvd350 drive. If I use pure NTSC the colour seems noticeably higher than if I am watching a PAL dvd or PAL60 on an NTSC dvd. If what has been said above is true (RGB does not use composite colour encoding) this shouldn't happen right?

Thats a problem with the TV, I have the same TV, whenever it goes into NTSC mode the colour goes really bright and blooming, wether it's from a dvd player or video player, no way round it!

[figrin_dan]

I have always found NTSC colours to be more vibrant than PAL. Either using composite laserdisc or s-video dvd. I just thought it was my imagination.

[Mr.D]

Well its most likely down to some odd behabviour in your TV set but.

NTSC can look more clipped colourwise in relation to PAL. You may be mistaking lack of colour information for punchiness ( think like a colour photocopy).

I've done tests on broadcast grade equipment on a handful of dvdvplayers and in every case the colour was noticably more detailed using PAL60 over NTSC via s-video ( greens and skintones most noticably).

[loz99]

About 12 Months ago I was advised by a local mate to get
really good scart leads coz the ones supplied with machines are
Mickey mouse standard.
I bought some gold scart leads and i must say they definitely improved the quality of dvd picture for me!
I wouldn't like to use cheapo ones ever again.

Does any you guys know anything about these new scart leads
that have built in Ntsc-Pal converters & macro defeaters - any
info at all?

BTW This has turned out to be a very informative, interesting
thread - Thanx Lads!!

loz99