[johnscarlet]

Thread 2 now closed please contimue in here .


..........................................

[SibTiger33]

thanks

[jonneymendoza]

cheers

[Suave]

Hi All,

I think this whole incident is going to open up a further can of some very wriggly worms - this could cost Renault far, far more than just any fines by the FIA.

Remember that Massa was leading the Singapore Grand Prix at the time of the crash (I believe) & the whole safety car then caused him to be be all the way back to 13th. Considering that McClaren/Hamilton won the Championship that year by a single point which might well have not been the case had this stunt not been pulled then & we may most probably & most likely would have seen Massa/Ferrari as winners instead.

I Think Ferrari have a very real case for massive damages here as the loss of a Championship would have lost them tens of millions (if not more) & all the other ancillary benefits that comes with being Champions. I think Renault are going to have to fork out at least £100 million to Ferrari & the FIA are going to have a nightmare to deal with especially since they had access to all that telemetry for so long which they did not call the Renault team on.

I wonder, can this episode cause the FIA to suspend/alter the 2009 results in some way?

Suave!

[BlackCountryBob]

Originally Posted by Suave

Hi All,

I think this whole incident is going to open up a further can of some very wriggly worms - this could cost Renault far, far more than just any fines by the FIA.

Remember that Massa was leading the Singapore Grand Prix at the time of the crash (I believe) & the whole safety car then caused him to be be all the way back to 13th. Considering that McClaren/Hamilton won the Championship that year by a single point which might well have not been the case had this stunt not been pulled then & we may most probably & most likely would have seen Massa/Ferrari as winners instead.

I Think Ferrari have a very real case for massive damages here as the loss of a Championship would have lost them tens of millions (if not more) & all the other ancillary benefits that comes with being Champions. I think Renault are going to have to fork out at least £100 million to Ferrari & the FIA are going to have a nightmare to deal with especially since they had access to all that telemetry for so long which they did not call the Renault team on.

I wonder, can this episode cause the FIA to suspend/alter the 2009 results in some way?

Suave!

Ferrari don't have a case, yes this led to an unscheduled pit stop but every other pit crew down the road was able to do a good pit stop, the fact that Ferrari managed to cock it up may annoy the team but they made the mistake and not Renault; they are guilty of a lot but you cannot bringing lawsuits against them based upon a hypothesis about what could have happened.

Regardless, the race results and the season results cannot be changed now, they are set in stone; despite the abuse it will go down in history as Alonso winning the 2008 Singapore GP. If the results could be changed and Alonso was DSQ then Hamilton would have been 2nd and won the title by 3 points rather than 1.

PS; thanks for merging the threads mods.

[alexs2]

It still remains to be seen how this settles out on Monday,at the hearing.

Flav and Symonds having left does open the door a bit for Renault to escape something severe,but you would think that having seen Schumacher losing his points one year,McLaren being fined very heavily etc for lesser offences than fixing a race in this fashion,that there will be serious consequences.

Against that would have to be weighed the possibility of Renault leaving altogether.

[kBm]

I think Renault will play heavily on that Briatore and Symonds planned the dirty tricks, now they have gone, i think it may just be a slap on the wrist with a fine.

[alexs2]

Originally Posted by kBm

I think Renault will play heavily on that Briatore and Symonds planned the dirty tricks, now they have gone, i think it may just be a slap on the wrist with a fine.

That one didn't work when Toyota's WRC team were found guilty of using a particularly clever way of bypassing the inlet restrictor on their cars,releasing about 50bhp extra.

The engineers responsible were fired,and the team as a whole was banned from the following year's championship.

It depends on a lot of horse-trading I would think.

[Paul_T]

I remember the Toyota incident - that was really sneaky and more "deliberate" that whats gone on with Renault IMO as the car was manufactured that way, it can't have been down to just 2 or 3 people knowing about it.

IIRC the inlet restrictor would open up to allow greater air flow into the engine once the car reached 10mph, it reverted back to it's "legal" size once the car stopped so it passed through scrutinering.

If you want to get into hypothetical "world championship" results then look at 2007 also - weren't the Williams drivers ruled out then reinstated? probably just so the points tally didn't screw up Raikonnen's crown...

[Suave]

Originally Posted by BlackCountryBob

Ferrari don't have a case, yes this led to an unscheduled pit stop but every other pit crew down the road was able to do a good pit stop, the fact that Ferrari managed to cock it up may annoy the team but they made the mistake and not Renault; they are guilty of a lot but you cannot bringing lawsuits against them based upon a hypothesis about what could have happened.

Regardless, the race results and the season results cannot be changed now, they are set in stone; despite the abuse it will go down in history as Alonso winning the 2008 Singapore GP. If the results could be changed and Alonso was DSQ then Hamilton would have been 2nd and won the title by 3 points rather than 1.

PS; thanks for merging the threads mods.

Hi,

Thanks for the comments - I guess we will all see what develops but I suspect a lot of stuff will be done behind closed doors so to speak & we will never know the full extent of what was agreed & settled upon.

What I am having a hard time understanding is that normally, the FIA examines all these cars with a fine tooth comb both before & after the race and all data must be made available to them. Why did they not bring this issue up with Renault/Piquet Jnr at the time - firstly they are probably fully aware of all the dubious strategic tactics that teams can use and having such telling telemetry that they would have examined post-race should have had some serious alarm bells ringing should it not?

Suave!

[BlackCountryBob]

Originally Posted by Suave

What I am having a hard time understanding is that normally, the FIA examines all these cars with a fine tooth comb both before & after the race and all data must be made available to them. Why did they not bring this issue up with Renault/Piquet Jnr at the time - firstly they are probably fully aware of all the dubious strategic tactics that teams can use and having such telling telemetry that they would have examined post-race should have had some serious alarm bells ringing should it not?

Alarm bells should have ben ringing, the rumours around the paddock should have been enough for the FIA to have a look but as was mentioned in the last thread, the FIA is an old boy club who look after themselves before anything else.

Interesting; FIA knew of scandal last year, says Piquet | F1 News | 2009 | Crash.Net

[kBm]

What action, if any, could be taken against Piquet? Surely he still needs a super racing license (or whatever they're call), isn't safety a major factor?

[BlackCountryBob]

Originally Posted by kBm

What action, if any, could be taken against Piquet? Surely he still needs a super racing license (or whatever they're call), isn't safety a major factor?

In return for testifying he has absolute immunity from any action, but he still wont get a drive in F1 again.

[Brogan]

Originally Posted by BlackCountryBob

but he still wont get a drive in F1 again.

Let's face it, based on his results over the last 2 seasons he wasn't going to anyway

[scartlead]

Originally Posted by Paul_T

If you want to get into hypothetical "world championship" results then look at 2007 also - weren't the Williams drivers ruled out then reinstated? probably just so the points tally didn't screw up Raikonnen's crown...

Yeah, IIRC it was for ruuning their fuel cooler than was offically allowed, or something to that effect. Also with regards to ferrari making an issue out the 2008 championship, with massa...well they may not have won the Singapore race anyway. For sheer entertainment, massa's pitstop was laughable, I remember half the pit crew running down the pitlane. They all looked knackered.

[Wild Weasel]

I seem to remember a cetain M Shumacher 'crashing' during qualifying at Monaco and blocking everyone else from knocking him off pole.

[Suave]

Originally Posted by BlackCountryBob

Alarm bells should have ben ringing, the rumours around the paddock should have been enough for the FIA to have a look but as was mentioned in the last thread, the FIA is an old boy club who look after themselves before anything else.

Interesting; FIA knew of scandal last year, says Piquet | F1 News | 2009 | Crash.Net

Hi Bob,

Wow, I knew there was a lot of dubious stuff going on behind the scenes even with FIA involvement (there is just too much money involved in the sport and too much to be made on the quiet by those in power or who have influence) but surely, if the FIA know about it and suppressed the info, tried to bury it & gave an advantage to Renault knowingly, then surely they are also guilty & liable for prosecution as well?

If they just knowingly ignored it then they are not also hugely culpable and be legally accountable? If the FIA was involved either in a deal or violating it's own rules, then all the other teams, sponsors, etc can sue the living daylights out of them - like I said, there is just way too much money involved here - we are talking hundreds of millions of dollars - will the FIA be allowed to get away with this?

Suave!

[rockngrohl]

Originally Posted by BlackCountryBob

Alarm bells should have ben ringing, the rumours around the paddock should have been enough for the FIA to have a look but as was mentioned in the last thread, the FIA is an old boy club who look after themselves before anything else.

Interesting; FIA knew of scandal last year, says Piquet | F1 News | 2009 | Crash.Net

That could make Monday even more intresting then, if this is the case then the FIA is rotten to the core. The sooner Max departs the better. Bring Ari Vatanen in to clean the whole thing up & get F1 back to what it should be about - racing !

[BlackCountryBob]

I am not sure but I don't think that any team can sue the FIA or FOM.

Regardless, if any team starts slinging their weight around and tries to shift blame onto the FIA then I think they could start taking a very detailed look at past, present and future indiscretions by that team.

If the drivers and teams know what is good for them having seen how vendettas are met, they will just accept the judgement and keep quiet.

[johnscarlet]

please be careful what you say , Max likes to go to Court . thank you

[rockngrohl]

Will do Mods.

[The Gooner]

Originally Posted by Paul_T

If you want to get into hypothetical "world championship" results then look at 2007 also - weren't the Williams drivers ruled out then reinstated? probably just so the points tally didn't screw up Raikonnen's crown...

Not forgetting of course the fact that Masa was leading in Brazil all race untill all of a sudden Kimi was able to pass.

[BlackCountryBob]

So it turns ut that maybe the BBCs hypothetical idea of Kimi back in a McLaren has some basis in fact.

Raikkonen 'has signed' 2010 outline agreement with McLaren | F1 News | 2009 | Crash.Net

[rockngrohl]

Alonso has received a late summons to attend the hearing tomorrow. Are they likely to make a decision on the punishment immediately or could that take a bit more time after further consideration ?

[Steven]

Originally Posted by alexs2

Flav and Symonds having left does open the door a bit for Renault to escape something severe.

Hmmm I don't know. Bernie has so many new teams lined up it is all very confusing

[sleaver]

Briatore and Symonds got not not only to try and save Renault but also themselves as because they are no longer associated with a license holder no formal action can be taken against them under the International Sporting Code.

[Suave]

Originally Posted by sleaver

Briatore and Symonds got not not only to try and save Renault but also themselves as because they are no longer associated with a license holder no formal action can be taken against them under the International Sporting Code.

Hi,

I think that is just disgraceful that just because they resign when caught red handed that they can legally escape any consequences of their actions. What is Piquet Jnr had died as result of this stunt?

In the minds of these people, they think that just because they have "resigned" from the job, that they are no longer responsible for their own actions & decisions whilst they were in it. It is a freaking joke.

I personally believe that Briatore & Symonds should go to prison over this - if any ordinary person had committed an act which involved fraud and deception involving monetary consequences of tens of millions of pounds and carried out that act in such a dangerous mechanism that could have taken human life & as was done just to cover it up then regardless of the fact whether they had resigned or not, they would be looking at a very long time behind bars.

Suave!

[metropolis]

Originally Posted by Suave

I personally believe that Briatore & Symonds should go to prison over this - if any ordinary person had committed an act which involved fraud and deception involving monetary consequences of tens of millions of pounds and carried out that act in such a dangerous mechanism that could have taken human life & as was done just to cover it up then regardless of the fact whether they had resigned or not, they would be looking at a very long time behind bars.

Suave!

and they should be joined by piquet jnr as well,why should he be immune from any punishment ?

[Noggin1980]

While not confirmed yet Renualts punishment is essentially absolutly frak all. (2 year suspended ban) how can this punishment be so much less than that given to McClaren?

While I'm glad no jobs are going to be lost this just continues to make F1 look like a complete farce.

I really don't know why I watch this sport sometimes. Briatore and symmonds weren't even fired they resigned, so in reality no actual punishment has been dished out to anyone.

[Brogan]

The hearing is still going on isn't it?

How do you have the result?

Link?