[Ian J]

Originally Posted by Curry Monster

So the people on here arguing that they are good cars are very much in the minority as expected.

You didn't ask if people thought whether French or Italian cars were any good. You asked what people thought who made the best cars and the largest sector was German - probably having Porsche in mind

Why not ask which nationality makes the most desirable cars and I'll bet you get very few answering German

[vorn182]

Originally Posted by Curry Monster

As I thought... Most people voted German.

Very few voted Italian or French... So the people on here arguing that they are good cars are very much in the minority as expected.

I didn't vote German or French!

[lovegroova]

Japanese FTW (again)

And the most reliable used car is... - Telegraph

[NorvernRob]

Originally Posted by lovegroova

Japanese FTW (again)

And the most reliable used car is... - Telegraph

You can't argue with overall Japanese reliability. My wife has had her Toyota Yaris from new (2004), and in 60,000 miles it's had an exhaust back box/centre section and an oil pressure switch - a total of £240 in repairs over 8 years. The original tyres only needed replacing last year!

[FZR400RRSP]

A Korean car (Kia sportage) recently came top for customer satisfaction out of 118 cars in the JD Power/What Car survey.
Note, jaguar were top as manufacturer, but the Sportage came top of individual cars.

[markymark34]

I'm never too sure about customer satisfaction surveys. When I had a BMW I was mega fussy, every rattle or tiny fault was taken back to the dealer but when I had a focus i usually didn't bother unless it was serious. The best example of this is comparing a Golf to an octavia. The octavia is nearly always higher yet it's basically the same car with less sound deadening and a crappy dash. People don't have as high expectations with less desirable marks.

Honda engines seem to be v reliable, wasn't there a stat a few years ago that there hadn't been any vtech failures?

[vorn182]

Originally Posted by markymark34

I'm never too sure about customer satisfaction surveys. When I had a BMW I was mega fussy, every rattle or tiny fault was taken back to the dealer but when I had a focus i usually didn't bother unless it was serious. The best example of this is comparing a Golf to an octavia. The octavia is nearly always higher yet it's basically the same car with less sound deadening and a crappy dash. People don't have as high expectations with less desirable marks.

Honda engines seem to be v reliable, wasn't there a stat a few years ago that there hadn't been any vtech failures?

When 8 out of 10 cars in the top 10 are Jap, and there are no other ways of identifying "who makes the best cars" I think we'll have to accept the survey. That is until someone can come up with a better way, other than "I had a Nissan/Renault/Honda/Ford/Vauxhall 20 years ago and it broke so I hate them"

VW down in 20th as well, oh dear.

[markymark34]

Originally Posted by vorn182

When 8 out of 10 cars in the top 10 are Jap, and there are no other ways of identifying "who makes the best cars" I think we'll have to accept the survey. That is until someone can come up with a better way, other than "I had a Nissan/Renault/Honda/Ford/Vauxhall 20 years ago and it broke so I hate them"

VW down in 20th as well, oh dear.

Yes thats a warranty survey your quoting i was talking about the customer satisfaction survey.

[markymark34]

Originally Posted by markymark34

Yes thats a warranty survey your quoting i was talking about the customer satisfaction survey.

actually having looked at the jd power survey my argument doesnt work.
JD Power survey 2012 - The results - What Car?

there are 4 VWs in the top 20 and a jag at number 2.

ps sorry for double post, i meant to edit my first one not quote it.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by markymark34

actually having looked at the jd power survey my argument doesnt work.

Ah, JD Power . . . how not to do statistics! They ask people to make subjective assessments on a number of criteria, rating one to five blobs, then calculate the results to two decimal places. Add to that the fact that most respondents have no experience of cars other than their own, the "Forum Effect", non-representative & often very small samples & other factors & the end result is fairly meaningless. These things do have their uses - looking at scores in individual categories can give a rough idea of where problems may lie, but as an absolute guide as to which car to buy, very dubious!

[thesilverfox]

Customer satisfaction and reliability surveys are limited by response bias, else why don't they all return the same results every time? Many are close, sure - but never the same

German cars are generally the best engineered, in my opinion. My GF has a Golf 2.0 Bluemotion, which is a lovely car to be inside - great toys and a nice interior, great engine and magnificent economy. I now know what people mean about VAG steering though! Perfectly acceptable, but definitely very light - even with the bigger alloys and different suspension setups.
Her old 120d handled better and was bumpier she said, but she was intimidated by people trying to get her to "race" (she's only been driving 18 months and still a bit nervy at times).

My Focus has aged badly in terms of looks (07 Titanium built in Spain!), but handles far more confidently than the 11 plate Golf - no question about it. Having only owned Fords myself (but had plenty of experience with others), I am perhaps very lucky to report back that all of mine have been reliable - only consumable parts needed.

Then again, perhaps I am the exception, rather than the rule (knock wood) in the 80k miles I have put on my diesel, I've only had to buy bulbs, tyres and brakes in addition to servicing. It's *just* about ready to have the original wiper blades at the front replaced

The Hondas I've driven are mechanically very sound indeed. Bit more rattly than I expected, but good fun. The Civic had reasonably weighted steering, but wasn't as sporting as the low ride height would have you believe. Focus handling definitely trumps the EX Civic (previous shape to the current) as well.

Pointless poll, though. Mainly because cars are built all over the world by different nations to those the badge represents.

I haven't voted, as the "best" is subjective and not salient fact - something I think the OP is clinging on to ...

[lovegroova]

Originally Posted by thesilverfox

Customer satisfaction and reliability surveys are limited by response bias, else why don't they all return the same results every time? Many are close, sure - but never the same

The reliability survey isn't limited by this bias as it's based on Warranty Insurance claims, not customer opinions.

[thesilverfox]

Originally Posted by lovegroova

The reliability survey isn't limited by this bias as it's based on Warranty Insurance claims, not customer opinions.

Valid, but then I see a few flaws potentially there too:

1. Which warranty insurance firms are included and did they provide a full set of data?

2. Are official manufacturer warranty claims included? Most are 3 year, but of course, some are now up to 7. I doubt manufacturers give this info out easily

3. Who are the sorts of people that buy extended warranties, away from the manufacturers?

4. Are the claims fully inclusive, i.e., some warranties won't cover cars over 100k miles etc.


Unless a survey or test is 100% fully documented, it's hard to believe any of them. Sure, they can be indicative of the truth, but never reliable all the time

[Curry Monster]

Originally Posted by thesilverfox

I haven't voted, as the "best" is subjective and not salient fact - something I think the OP is clinging on to ...

No I just wanted to find out if the feedback I was getting regarding avoiding french/italian cars was widespread or just a few individuals ... the poll shows what the truth is...

[EndlessWaves]

Originally Posted by lovegroova

The reliability survey isn't limited by this bias as it's based on Warranty Insurance claims, not customer opinions.

It's a third party warranty and relatively small sample number (50,000 in total, so probably less than 5000 customers for some brands) so the data could easily be skewed.

For example, some customers will be buying an extra warranty because their car has been unreliable and some will be buying it because they need guaranteed reliability (e.g. business use). If there's a difference between which brands the groups favour then it'll result in the brands used by the first group appearing less reliable than they are in reality.

Or depending on how the warranties are sold and the numbers for each brand it could even be seen as an index of which brand has the most gullible customers with the customers of the lower rated brands doing more research and buying warranties only on the cars most likely to fail.

Any surveys that don't lay out their methodology and show how they've controlled for other variables are an interesting diversion but should not be taken seriously, and forum polls are even less likely to be representative of the real state of affairs for new cars.


On the thread in general I'm surprised how many cars have been left out. Swedish cars (Volvo and Saab) are completely missing from the poll despite having a reputation for great engineering and I've not seen a single mention of Vauxhall from the german car fans yet (Opel are a german company).

[lovegroova]

Originally Posted by EndlessWaves

It's a third party warranty and relatively small sample number (50,000 in total, so probably less than 5000 customers for some brands) so the data could easily be skewed.

For example, some customers will be buying an extra warranty because their car has been unreliable and some will be buying it because they need guaranteed reliability (e.g. business use). If there's a difference between which brands the groups favour then it'll result in the brands used by the first group appearing less reliable than they are in reality.

Or depending on how the warranties are sold and the numbers for each brand it could even be seen as an index of which brand has the most gullible customers with the customers of the lower rated brands doing more research and buying warranties only on the cars most likely to fail.

Any surveys that don't lay out their methodology and show how they've controlled for other variables are an interesting diversion but should not be taken seriously, and forum polls are even less likely to be representative of the real state of affairs for new cars.


On the thread in general I'm surprised how many cars have been left out. Swedish cars (Volvo and Saab) are completely missing from the poll despite having a reputation for great engineering and I've not seen a single mention of Vauxhall from the german car fans yet (Opel are a german company).

From Home - Car Reliability Index | Reliability Index | How reliable is your car?

The survey includes "hundreds of thousands of cars" over a decade, so I'd suggest it was statistically significant, especially as it laregely ties in with most other less subjective surveys - i.e. in general, Japanese cars break down a lot less than those from any other country.

another useful snippet from http://www.reliabilityindex.com/what-is

Not all models are present on the Reliability Index - only when we have data for at least 50 vehicles will we display the results - this ensures the integrity of the Index.

[thesilverfox]

Originally Posted by Curry Monster

No I just wanted to find out if the feedback I was getting regarding avoiding french/italian cars was widespread or just a few individuals ... the poll shows what the truth is...

Again, no, it's what some people on this forum think - opinion, not truth.

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by Curry Monster

the poll shows what the truth is...

It shows no such things as not only wasn't that not the question that you asked it wasn't even close to it

[Tetlee]

Voted Japanese. My current and previous car were European, but most of the cars before that have been Japanese(Toyota and Honda) and have been absolutely brilliant for reliability and spent and absolute minimum in garages, just on the essentials such as tyres etc.

Don't always consider their styling to be the best, but out of any continent I have the most confidence buying Japanese.