[Osamede]

What's the current best value in electric cars? Am looking getting a second car for family. Primary use is in town work/school commute.

After some research the Nissan Leaf looks interesting. Anybody here have experience with it?

Also what's the long term prognosis for these cars? From what I can see the useful life of the battery is 5-8 years after which it needs replacement. Digestion is that currently the battery is 50% of the cost of making these cars. Is that number likely to go down meaningfully within a 5 year timeframe?

[FZR400RRSP]

We encouraged a couple of company car users to look at the Leaf.
They don't drive long distances, the Leaf is free from company car tax.
But that was when the range was being touted as 200 miles.
As soon as we/they realised the range is only 90 miles, it was dropped.
Shame, as it's a nice looking car and seemed ideal for them.

[lovegroova]

The Renaults are looking like the best bet as you lease the battery from them, so no worries about the longevity. You can compare the leasing cost vs likely fuel costs and go from there.

The Zoe (or the Joey as I like to call it ) looks the best bet. Renault ZOE Life | 100% Electric car | Z.E.

From £13,650 OTR and then £70 a month for the battery lease.

Mythbusters here: Myth busters - Electric motoring - Renault Z.E.

[noiseboy72]

A Hybrid might make more sense that pure electric. The new Diesel Hybrids are amazing vehicles.

They have much better range, are still free road tax for the first year but are actually usable in the real world.

They also have more space than the pure electrics and the battery is cheaper to replace.

[FZR400RRSP]

Originally Posted by lovegroova

(or the Joey as I like to call it )

Haha, I get you.
You maybe have to be a certain age to remember Mr.Deacon though.

[evilkegs]

they is someone in my town who uses a leaf as a hackney carriage but then again we dont live far from the factory so i dont know if its somekind of publicity campaign

[FZR400RRSP]

Originally Posted by evilkegs

they is someone in my town who uses a leaf as a hackney carriage but then again we dont live far from the factory so i dont know if its somekind of publicity campaign

With a 90 mile range and an 8 hour re-charge, he must be the most skint driver ever.
It must be a publicity thing, there's no way in hell a working cabbie could make money using a Leaf.

[DPinBucks]

Originally Posted by evilkegs

they is someone in my town who uses a leaf as a hackney carriage but then again we dont live far from the factory so i dont know if its somekind of publicity campaign

That sounds a bit iffy. You don't know where you're going to end up or how long you've got to charge it between fares. 90 miles between charges is not much for a taxi.

[evilkegs]

thats what i think but i dont know how they are funding him because its on the rank everyday working

[FZR400RRSP]

Originally Posted by evilkegs

thats what i think but i dont know how they are funding him because its on the rank everyday working

They must be paying him enough that fares are secondary.
I can't see a cabbie making a living out of 90 miles a day.
Apart from anything else, he must have to turn people away based on how much juice he has left.

"Yeah, I can do the airport, if you wait 8 hours...."

[evilkegs]

Originally Posted by FZR400RRSP

"Yeah, I can do the airport, if you wait 8 hours...."

aye but the airport is only 15 miles from our town so maybe its possible
it must be nice to get paid to sit around on the rank though

[Osamede]

The diesel hybrids are a non-starter for me. Existing car is a diesel (Volvo V70 2.0D) and no matter what they say about 'clean diesel" those things are dirty, to be honest. Happy with the V70 in general but not the diesel part. Not going to invest any more in diesel.

Our usage pattern seems to hover around 20-25 miles a day. And the Leaf can be charged by plugging in to an ordinary wall outlet at home. So 90 miles does not scare me at all. It's a second car after all. Always got the other one for long hauls/vacations etc.

The Renault looks interesting with the leasing the battery but the car itself looks a but on the small side. Am looking ideally for something in the Golf class/size. If VW had an electric Golf I'd be all over it, but sadly not the case.

There is a lovely looking Tesla S electric sedan, but not at that price.

Petrol hybrids interesting although that would lose me the free parking option that I can get at work with an electric car. What are the best hybrids in this size?

[gangzoom]

Originally Posted by lovegroova

The Renaults are looking like the best bet as you lease the battery from them, so no worries about the longevity. You can compare the leasing cost vs likely fuel costs and go from there.

The Zoe (or the Joey as I like to call it ) looks the best bet. Renault ZOE Life | 100% Electric car | Z.E.

From £13,650 OTR and then £70 a month for the battery lease.

Mythbusters here: Myth busters - Electric motoring - Renault Z.E.

The Renault electric cars do look more tempting compared to what Nissan can offer in the form of the Leaf. But paying £70 a month for a battery pack and £13K for the car is like it buying a small city car and than speeding £70 a month on petrol, only difference been in the petrol car u don't have to worry range/charging.

On paper electric motors are a much better way to drive a car than the internal combustion engine (after all some nuclear submarines are driven by electric motors). But battery technology/cost still has some way to go before they are ready to take over from current cars.

[Osamede]

I dont see it as an either/or situation.

Electric cars obviously wont suddenly take over. Hybrids are the bridge technology that is easier to see the use case for initially, particularly in the phase where there are petrol stations everywhere and electric charging stations in far fewer places.

But there are many applications/use cases where pure plug in electrics will also make inroads. In particular, low milage situations. I initially had concerns about range etc but then when I started measuring our milage I was quite surprised how low our real daily mileage is. It was less than 25 miles, pretty consistently.

That applies to a lot of people. Even in the US, where suburbanization and long commuting times are common, some studies showed that most people drove 40 miles a day or less. Which makes pretty much any electric car a viable option for them, at least for commuting purposes. This even more so in Europe where we drive shorter distances commuting and we have 240 volts at home, meaning you dont actually need any other additional charging infrastructure for nightly top up - if the manufacturers do things right.

But the battery lifespan and replacement cost are the catch. That's the nut they need to crack.

That said it would be interesting to see how much the depreciation is on a car engine (isolated from chassis value) and how that compares to the electric battery depreciation.

[lovegroova]

Originally Posted by gangzoom

The Renault electric cars do look more tempting compared to what Nissan can offer in the form of the Leaf. But paying £70 a month for a battery pack and £13K for the car is like it buying a small city car and than speeding £70 a month on petrol, only difference been in the petrol car u don't have to worry range/charging.

Er, I already said that

You then have to factor in servicing (pretty much none on an electric car), tax, insurance and the largest cost of car ownership - depreciation. That remains an unknown at this stage but the battery pack leasing scheme will go some way to addressing it.

[FZR400RRSP]

Originally Posted by Osamede

I initially had concerns about range etc but then when I started measuring our milage I was quite surprised how low our real daily mileage is. It was less than 25 miles, pretty consistently.

Range wouldn't be so much of an issue if the things could be charged quickly.
But 90 miles, then you've to 'set aside' 8 hours for a full recharge?
Or unplug it early and put up with even less range?
What happens if you let the juice run really low, shove it on charge then you suddenly need the car through the night?
It's happened with us umpteen times, having to take one of the kids into G-docs for emergency treatment.
Honestly, it just seems like range/charge would constantly be on your mind.
Driving's stressful enough without that.

[Osamede]

Originally Posted by FZR400RRSP

Range wouldn't be so much of an issue if the things could be charged quickly.
But 90 miles, then you've to 'set aside' 8 hours for a full recharge?
Or unplug it early and put up with even less range?
What happens if you let the juice run really low, shove it on charge then you suddenly need the car through the night?
It's happened with us umpteen times, having to take one of the kids into G-docs for emergency treatment.
Honestly, it just seems like range/charge would constantly be on your mind.
Driving's stressful enough without that.

Its all driven by your specific use case. I'm looking for a second car for an urban commute, not a primary car for that I would end up driving to France or something on holiday.

90 mile range means every about every 3 days it would need a charge in our specific case. Assuming one did not charge it on any of said nights in the garage at home where it would have been parked overnight for 12-14 hours per night. So there is no setting aside time - if all it needs is plugging in the car when you park it in your home garage, that's beyond easy

But like I said, its all based on your needs. I cant see electric cars being useful for everyone. But for the in-city commuter the value of this kind of car is high, as its not stretching its driving range. if you are parking in your own garage, that pretty much closes the case, that means easy "refuelling". If youre parking on the street, a different matter of course.

For the electrics I think the key deciding factor in my particular case is more how does the car drive and what happens at battery end of life.

[mjn]

What would happen if you forgot to plug it in the night before to charge? You're a bit buggered if you need to go anywhere!

Not like nipping to the petrol station, just a minor de-tour at the end of the day.

[Kinetic Frenzy]

Originally Posted by lovegroova

The Renaults are looking like the best bet as you lease the battery from them, so no worries about the longevity. You can compare the leasing cost vs likely fuel costs and go from there.

The Zoe (or the Joey as I like to call it ) looks the best bet. Renault ZOE Life | 100% Electric car | Z.E.

From £13,650 OTR and then £70 a month for the battery lease.

Mythbusters here: Myth busters - Electric motoring - Renault Z.E.

Nearly £14k for a sh**box that will get passed by a granny on a bike and have not much more range than she can achieve and then pay the privilege of a further £1k a year for the battery - no wonder electric motoring is struggling to catch on

[DPinBucks]

Originally Posted by Osamede

The diesel hybrids are a non-starter for me. Existing car is a diesel (Volvo V70 2.0D) and no matter what they say about 'clean diesel" those things are dirty, to be honest. Happy with the V70 in general but not the diesel part. Not going to invest any more in diesel.

Our usage pattern seems to hover around 20-25 miles a day. And the Leaf can be charged by plugging in to an ordinary wall outlet at home. So 90 miles does not scare me at all. It's a second car after all. Always got the other one for long hauls/vacations etc.

The Renault looks interesting with the leasing the battery but the car itself looks a but on the small side. Am looking ideally for something in the Golf class/size. If VW had an electric Golf I'd be all over it, but sadly not the case.

There is a lovely looking Tesla S electric sedan, but not at that price.

Petrol hybrids interesting although that would lose me the free parking option that I can get at work with an electric car. What are the best hybrids in this size?

In principle a diesel-electric hybrid is the best way to go, so long as the transmission is all-electric.

You charge the batteries as normal from a power plug, but there's also a small diesel engine to keep them topped-up. It's the batteries which drive the car, and the engine only cuts in when the level drops below a certain point. It runs at a constant speed optimised for maximum efficiency. That way, you get the benefits of electric drive, including battery-only for short distances, no range problems, and maximum utilisation of the fuel. Diesel-electric locos have worked for decades on the same principle.

Diesel is better than petrol for this because petrol engines tend not to like running at constant speeds and you don't need their responsiveness. Emissions can be made very low by running the engine at its most suitable speed.

[lovegroova]

0-62 of the Joey is 8.1 seconds, so even SuperGran couldn't keep up.
Quick charging will give you 30 miles in 10 minutes
Fast charging will do a full recharge in one hour.

Renault ZOE Life | 100% Electric car | Z.E.

Electric cars aren't for everyone, but they could work for a lot of people, especially as second cars.

[Osamede]

Originally Posted by mjn

What would happen if you forgot to plug it in the night before to charge? You're a bit buggered if you need to go anywhere!

Not like nipping to the petrol station, just a minor de-tour at the end of the day.

I don't get how a side trip to the petrol station would be better than fuelling in the garage at home. I'd happily take the latter.

Also can't imagine how I'd "forget" to plug in at the garage at home Seems a simple routine, no differnt from locking the car and closing garage door.

O

[paulyoung666]

Originally Posted by Kinetic Frenzy

Nearly £14k for a sh**box that will get passed by a granny on a bike and have not much more range than she can achieve and then pay the privilege of a further £1k a year for the battery - no wonder electric motoring is struggling to catch on

stop being so sensationalist .....

[NorvernRob]

Out of interest, how much power do these cars draw when charging?

[FZR400RRSP]

Originally Posted by Osamede

I don't get how a side trip to the petrol station would be better than fuelling in the garage at home. I'd happily take the latter.

In an emergency low fuel situation, a trip to the petrol station takes 20 minutes and I have a 600+ mile range again.

[Osamede]

Originally Posted by FZR400RRSP

In an emergency low fuel situation, a trip to the petrol station takes 20 minutes and I have a 600+ mile range again.

Why do I have this feeling of the "I need balanced XZR and external amp with 200 watts per channel" discussion ? :-)

[paulyoung666]

Originally Posted by Osamede

After some research the Nissan Leaf looks interesting. Anybody here have experience with it?

have driven one at work , to be honest i was impressed , plenty of room and surprisingly nippy ....

[Osamede]

Originally Posted by paulyoung666

have driven one at work , to be honest i was impressed , plenty of room and surprisingly nippy ....

Good to hear! Any dissapoinments or negatives? Also what was your charging setup?

[paulyoung666]

Originally Posted by Osamede

Good to hear! Any dissapoinments or negatives? Also what was your charging setup?

to be honest i didnt note any negatives , i am sure there are some and what suits me might not suit you , have a look at this , you can book a 24 hour test drive , as for the charging i dont know what setup we have ....

[Osamede]

Thanks for the input. I've got a test drive lined up for Monday.