[daniel_owen_uk]

OK, so in all of the Orange debacle it turns out my i8910 is on ebay.

So I am in need of a new phone, would really like a phone that is great for browsing, would love full flash support.

Have around £40 a month to play with and would like no intial outlay.

Not sure I want another i8910, as the hardware is great but the OS, not so much. Fancy an android, but not sure the Hero is up to it.

Recommendations?

[spaceman763]

Whats the perfect internet phone ?

[Technaut]

imo the n97 black is the one to go for the moment, nokia phones always are backed up by a massive community of developers always making great programs etc.

had a samsung one and hated it

[andyitr]

You're having a laugh aren’t you regarding the N97.

I really wouldn't recommend it to any one in its current state.

I have had 4 Nokia N97s in the space of a month and all have displayed the same problems the main bug bear i have with the handset is the lack to be able to get a signal. However, compare this to the old N95 handset and the N95 wins hands down for coverage.

[daniel_owen_uk]

Gotta be honest my old i8910 has same operating system and a better spec than the n97, so had pretty much ruled that out.

[apolloa]

If you want Orange then your only choice is the Hero anyway? I would suspect you can haggle a free one for £40 a month.
See the videos I posted of it in here:

Upgrade due but not really sure what to get

There are rumours that come October any network will be able to offer the iPhone, T-Mobile are apparently offering the 3G version now, but I wouldn't get it as the 3GS has replaced it effectively. So you may find the 3GS on Orange come October.

[NicolasB]

I don't think anything has genuine full flash support at the moment.

The HTC Hero is the best of the Android phones (all three of them). You should also consider the HTC Touch Diamond 2 and the iPhone. If the reason why you were tempted by an N97 is that you fancy a physical keyboard then the HTC Touch Pro 2 is your best bet.

Avoid the N97 and also the Toshiba TG01.

[Monty Burns]

iPhone doesn't do flash afaik = not a complete, full browsing experience. Apple have been quoted as saying it never will either.

The only full and complete browsing experience available to my knowledge is a windows mobile device running Opera Browser. Aim for an 800*480 screen and you should be very happy. Be prepared though to firmware flash a "cooked" rom onto any WinMo device you buy as out of the box they ain't great. Once you have a "cooked" rom on it though, it will rock no matter which device you buy (pretty much).

I personaly would never (again) buy a HTC device but many are happy with them - i've owned four in the past and all needed repairs.

edit: actually for a COMPLETE browsing experience, you'd need to install SkyFire but this will soon be a "pay for" service if its not already.

[apolloa]

Originally Posted by Monty Burns

iPhone doesn't do flash afaik = not a complete, full browsing experience. Apple have been quoted as saying it never will either.

The only full and complete browsing experience available to my knowledge is a windows mobile device running Opera Browser. Aim for an 800*480 screen and you should be very happy. Be prepared though to firmware flash a "cooked" rom onto any WinMo device you buy as out of the box they ain't great. Once you have a "cooked" rom on it though, it will rock no matter which device you buy (pretty much).

I personaly would never (again) buy a HTC device but many are happy with them - i've owned four in the past and all needed repairs.

edit: actually for a COMPLETE browsing experience, you'd need to install SkyFire but this will soon be a "pay for" service if its not already.

Well, I wouldn't say the iPhone will never have flash:

Adobe CEO: Flash on iPhone not so easy | Apple - CNET News

Make of that what you will but it's a sad state when to have the same browsing as your desktop involves hacking a phone or paying an additional cost for it.
Even Android isn't great at it.
Adobe do supply Nokia however:

Adobe - Mobile and Devices Developer Center: Flash Lite Development for Nokia Handsets

So maybe the N97 is the way to go? Despite it's other short comings you can at least use or install a very good browser and have flash lite support.

[Monty Burns]

Originally Posted by apolloa

...Make of that what you will but it's a sad state when to have the same browsing as your desktop involves hacking a phone or paying an additional cost for it.
...
Adobe do supply Nokia however:

Adobe - Mobile and Devices Developer Center: Flash Lite Development for Nokia Handsets

So maybe the N97 is the way to go? Despite it's other short comings you can at least use or install a very good browser and have flash lite support.

And the N97 or Iphone will give you anywhere NEAR a desktop experience? I don't think so. I don't think i've ever seen anyone recommend a Nokia for webbrowsing out of the four choices before .... thanks for the laugh





Opera, pay for it? Opera is free (included) on just about every winmobile out there. The manufacturers usualy pay for it as part of the phone cost.

Hacking? Its upgrading. Are you saying you've never firmware upgraded a phone? Lots of phones do it through desktop software - i believe this is how Nokias do it. And this is how you upgrade a winmob phone usualy although some are done via SD card. The roms these people customise and put up for free are simply staggering in capability and hey, something new comes out thats awesome? Guess what - you can download and install it yourself OR get a freshly baked rom with it all done for you.

Adobe Forums
Wishfull thinking - note, WORKING Flash on Iphone Emulator, check the date!
quote below

Apple’s developer agreement supposedly limits such an App from ever getting approval as it states in guideline 3.3.2 that no app is allowed to launch executable code by any means. As a Flash plug-in would have to launch executable code within another application (in this case Safari) the likely outcome is Jonah’s app will be rejected.

And Apple have excluded line-by-line code interpretation as part of the qualification into app store - so it will never have flash unless the break there own rules. If this rule stays steadfast, the ONLY way you will ever get flash on the Iphone is if its jailbroken .... and thats far from smooth like simply flashing a new rom. Just because Adobe say they are working on it, doesn't mean it will get on an Iphone legaly.

And Java?

dream on

Steve Jobs has been quoted as saying "Java's not worth building in. Nobody uses Java anymore. It's this big heavyweight ball and chain."

How wrong is he ......



Like it or not, the only way to get the best out of a mobile browser is Opera on a Winmob phone and as some of them now have over 4" screens, there is nothing like it.

edit: Please don't get me wrong. Im not an iHate person. I think the iphone is great and without it, WinMob devices would still be stuck using those crappy little styluses but apart from being fast at rendering, it doesn't compete with WinMob/Flash/Java/Opera combo. It doesn't even have the big screen advantage (and sadly, it has a very low res screen as well).

edit 2: And Winmob can have Flashlite or Flash full

[apolloa]

Steady on Monty.

Originally Posted by Monty Burns

edit: actually for a COMPLETE browsing experience, you'd need to install SkyFire but this will soon be a "pay for" service if its not already.

Your quote above is what I was referring to about paying for a full internet experience. And as for Opera, well Symbian supports it all just fine too. The one thing WinMo does lack is the fluid multi touch browsing of the iPhone which I for one would say makes it one of the best internet browsers on the market.
Your also wrong about Java, if you jailbreak the iPhone it will run it just fine as the Samsung CPU has an embedded Java engine. But yes you have to hack if it you really want it.
And no I don't consider taking a brand new phone out of a box and immediately flashing a different ROM onto it a solution, that's the same as hacking a phone IMO as it still involves placing a none standard OS onto it.

So my point still stands, you cannot buy a phone today that out of the box from the off will offer you the same browsing experience as a desktop? Without hacking it or installing a different ROM onto it.

If WinMo supported capacitive screens with multitouch then you could install your ROM with flash and Java and been sorted, although I have to say I haven't found a website the iPhone won't open so I'm not sure how the Java is affecting it anyway?


The OP said he was interested in Android which really brings you back to the Hero, Samsung and LG have Android phones on the board and Sony Ericsson have a gorgeous 4" screen one coming out with a 1ghz CPU, or so the rumours say. Even though WinMo as Monty has said no doubt has enough support to offer you a full desktop browsing experience, it still lacks that lovely fluid multitouch (At the moment) MS really need to catch up in this as it makes browsing on a little screen so much easier IMO, Android can now offer that multitouch with the Hero even if it isn't a fluid as the iPhone now, it may well be with the next models and gives you Flash, not sure about Java.

Oh, and i tend to never listen to what Steve Jobs says unless he's on stage at a press launch event he can be a bit, full, of himself lol.

[Monty Burns]

So its OK to run an Apple update (which is a firmware flash) but not a simple, phone off, run exe on desktop, phone on/auto-update?

And its ok to install Opera on a N97 which doesn't have it "out of the box" but not on a winmob device?

Not encountered Flash on the web? Seriously???? Or do webmasters have to run a second "downgrade" alternative site for webkit/rootkit/appleswhatevereitis as well?

[NicolasB]

Originally Posted by Monty Burns

So its OK to run an Apple update (which is a firmware flash) but not a simple, phone off, run exe on desktop, phone on/auto-update?

And its ok to install Opera on a N97 which doesn't have it "out of the box" but not on a winmob device?

Not encountered Flash on the web? Seriously???? Or do webmasters have to run a second "downgrade" alternative site for webkit/rootkit/appleswhatevereitis as well?

If the upgrade voids your guarantee, then it constitutes hacking. There is no useful distinction between jailbreaking an iPhone and installing a custom ROM on a WinMo device.

The option to install an application that copes with Flash is certainly a plus for WinMo, but there are also plenty of negatives - resistive touch-screens, 16k colours, etc. With any device there are always compromises, it's just a question of which compromises are more comfortable.

[Monty Burns]

and you can just flash the original rom back on, much as I have just downgraded my Acer m900 from win6.5 back to win6.1. Not exactly challenging ..... (had to go back for warranty)

But the discussion was "out of the box" and plenty of Winmob, infact most of them, offer far more support "out of the box" (i.e. Opera and Flash lite pre-installed) than N97 or iPhone. The fact you can then make this even better by flashing it is an added extra bonus. Having used both Winmob and iPhones, I really don't think for me the screen is that much of a bonus. Many winmob apps support touch scrolling and do it perfectly well - just we have the added bonus of being able to use a stylus for things like handwriting recognition.


The iphone has passed its day for an innovative device, many phones now emulate and even surpass it and in my view its now just a fashion statement - which is what Apple are very good at, marketing and useability! Big up to them on that! I do however, look forward to Apple doing something special again and challenging the market. Up until the iPhone, things were very stagnant and very "pointy" And of course, you can talk about the amount of colours if you like .... or we can talk about screen size and resolution?

The N97? Or indeed any Nokia as a serious "out of the box" internet browser? Peerrrrrleeeaaase...

[NicolasB]

Originally Posted by Monty Burns

and you can just flash the original rom back on, much as I have just downgraded my Acer m900 from win6.5 back to win6.1. Not exactly challenging ..... (had to go back for warranty)

That's assuming everything works - but what if the process goes wrong? You end up with an expensive brick. There is a huge difference to the average user between installing an app and completely rewriting the operating system.

Originally Posted by Monty Burns

But the discussion was "out of the box" and plenty of Winmob, infact most of them, offer far more support "out of the box" (i.e. Opera and Flash lite pre-installed) than N97 or iPhone.

And far less support than on the HTC Hero or Samsung Jet - and neither of those is anywhere perfect. Out-of-the-box Flash support on WinMo may be better than it is on the iPhone, but it still isn't good enough to actually be useful - so it's not really a selling point.

Originally Posted by Monty Burns

The fact you can then make this even better by flashing it is an added extra bonus. Having used both Winmob and iPhones, I really don't think for me the screen is that much of a bonus. Many winmob apps support touch scrolling and do it perfectly well - just we have the added bonus of being able to use a stylus for things like handwriting recognition.

Well, we will have to agree to disagree on that. I've just ordered a Windows Mobile phone (HTC TP2) and decided not to get an iPhone, but that doesn't stop me from acknowledging the iPhone as one of the finest pieces of user-interface design I've ever seen. The need for a stylus on WinMo is (IMO) a weakness, not a strength - a better designed device would never require a stylus. The iPhone interface really is beautifully thought out, and wonderfully intuitive.

Prior to the introduction of OS 3.0, the iPhone did have some very odd gaps in its capabilities (no copy and paste, for example) but the latest software closes nearly all of them.

If you want to complain about the iPhone OS, then really the only serious complaint is the lack of multi-tasking support. I very much object to Apple's closed-shop approach to software distribution, but jail-breaking an iPhone is no more difficult than flashing a new ROM on a WinMo device (and arguably just as necessary).

Originally Posted by Monty Burns

The iphone has passed its day for an innovative device, many phones now emulate and even surpass it and in my view its now just a fashion statement - which is what Apple are very good at, marketing and useability! Big up to them on that!

Again, we'll just have to agree to disagree on that.

Originally Posted by Monty Burns

I do however, look forward to Apple doing something special again and challenging the market. Up until the iPhone, things were very stagnant and very "pointy" And of course, you can talk about the amount of colours if you like .... or we can talk about screen size and resolution?

The screen size on an iPhone is larger than on most Windows Mobile devices. And with the exception of the absolutely useless and thoroughly annoying Toshiba TG01, there is no WinMo device whose screen is sufficiently much larger than the iPhone's for the difference to be significant. (3.6" vs 3.5" really isn't that big a deal). Even the 3.7" you get with the Omnia II isn't that much larger.

The added resolution you get on WVGA WinMo devices is certainly an advantage.

Originally Posted by Monty Burns

The N97? Or indeed any Nokia as a serious "out of the box" internet browser? Peerrrrrleeeaaase...

Well, I'm not going to try and defend the N97.

[Monty Burns]

Originally Posted by daniel_owen_uk

...So I am in need of a new phone, would really like a phone that is great for browsing, would love full flash support.
..

Simple. There are only two Operating Systems that get close to this on mobile. Windows Mobile with its flash support here or Android (aparently - i can't confirm as I don't use it).

iPhone, never has had flash and probably won't ever if Apple adhere to there own rules. Nokia? ... yeah ok.


edit:

ok REAL simple test for ya on iPhones, Android and Winmob.

Go to www.thehoggz.co.uk (my mates website) on your phone

do you:
hear AC/DC playing?
See the opening animation?

Yes to both? then your probably on a winmob phone with the full flash client or your desktop

[apolloa]

Originally Posted by Monty Burns

So its OK to run an Apple update (which is a firmware flash) but not a simple, phone off, run exe on desktop, phone on/auto-update?

And its ok to install Opera on a N97 which doesn't have it "out of the box" but not on a winmob device?

Not encountered Flash on the web? Seriously???? Or do webmasters have to run a second "downgrade" alternative site for webkit/rootkit/appleswhatevereitis as well?

Mate, you need to read what I said, I said I haven't encountered any JAVA website problems, NOT flash, I know and fully understand that my non jail broken iPhone won't run flash but I also believe it will come one day as Adobe haven't wasted over a years worth of development to ditch the idea IMO.

And it's also very interesting you keep attacking the iPhone and Symbian but your not mentioning Android, why? If you see what I'm saying it's that Android I think would give a better out the box browsing experience soon.

And as for the N97 in the UK:

Nokia UK - Nokia N97 - Specifications

Javascript and Flash lite 3.0 support as standard. So on paper at least the one thing the N97 doesn't lack is browsing ability.
Now I know the N97 has proven to be lacking in other areas, I also know that I would NEVER describe the iPhone as a 'fashion statement' it trounces on EVERY other UI on the market today period. That's hardly a fashion statement but a brilliant design that does what it' supposed to do, it works, easily, you don't have to prod through 5 menu's to do something. It's app store is amazing, it may be closed but it works very well and things are cheap. It also has a very good fast CPU now too.
I just can't see how something that has changed an entire industry for ever can be classed as nothing more then a fashion accessory?

[Monty Burns]

Trounces? Hardly. That depends on what you want to do with it

I said that the iPhone NOW is nothing more than a fashion statement. When it was launched it really pushed the boundaries and I'm glad it did! Its pushed people Like SPB and HTC to up the game significantly ... and what a job they have done. I'm not attacking the iPhone, i'll say it again, it does what it does brilliantly but its what it doesn't do.

Android? I've never used it and thats why I can't comment on it... other than what I've read and that is that it does support Flash after a fashion. N97? Flash LITE ... it makes a big diference.

Visual history, HTML and JavaScript support, Flash Lite 3.0 and Flash video support

Go to the website I posted above with Flashlite and see how that works


Works ok on my Omnia with its FULL Flash client

[daniel_owen_uk]

Gone with a HTC hero, loving it so far, browser and text entry is a mile ahead of omnia. Not really had the chance to play around with the rest of it yet but so far it's great.

[Monty Burns]

Good stuff. Hope it works well. Android is an up-and-coming O/S and so you can only expect it to get better and better with a massive developer community.

I wonder if you could try the test I posted above? I would love to know how good its Flash support is?

Originally Posted by Monty Burns

....
ok REAL simple test for ya on iPhones, Android and Winmob.

Go to Welcome to The Hoggz. (my mates website) on your phone

do you:
hear AC/DC playing?
See the opening animation?

....

Any chance please? You should see pictures of the band members flying around the screen for the intro as well as hear AC/DC playing.

[Uridium]

Originally Posted by Monty Burns

Simple. There are only two Operating Systems that get close to this on mobile. Windows Mobile with its flash support here or Android (aparently - i can't confirm as I don't use it).

iPhone, never has had flash and probably won't ever if Apple adhere to there own rules. Nokia? ... yeah ok.


edit:

ok REAL simple test for ya on iPhones, Android and Winmob.

Go to www.thehoggz.co.uk (my mates website) on your phone

do you:
hear AC/DC playing?
See the opening animation?

Yes to both? then your probably on a winmob phone with the full flash client or your desktop

Or a Nokia running Symbian

My E71 running S60V3 FP1 happily plays the animation and the audio track. (using default browser)

[Monty Burns]

odd, my mates N97 here in the office doesn't. Now thats strange!

[Uridium]

Originally Posted by Monty Burns

odd, my mates N97 here in the office doesn't. Now thats strange!

Yeah must admit i didn't expect it to work either . I rarely use it for web browsing as it's used just for Push mail really.

Standard browser with no plug-ins on a 3g connection. anyone there with an N95 or other non S60V5 symbian to test?

Be interested to know if it's a problem with S60V5. I do have an S60v5 Nokia 5800 at home so I'll try that later. (Did have an N97 as well but it was **** so sent it back )

[Monty Burns]

.... and if Android can do it.....????

(btw, the Aprilia couldnt cope with 100mile a day commute (was only 18months old!) so now back on zx636r, what you up to these days?)

[Uridium]

Originally Posted by Monty Burns

.... and if Android can do it.....????

(btw, the Aprilia couldnt cope with 100mile a day commute (was only 18months old!) so now back on zx636r, what you up to these days?)

Bet the 636 feels pants after the Mille eh!

I'm still bikeless mate. Baby number 4 came last month just haven't got the time for one at the moment.

If i was buying though i think it would probably be a Duke this time. After a couple of years of driving an Afla Romeo i now understand Italian ownership

[daniel_owen_uk]

Did that flash test works fine with audio :-)

[Monty Burns]

and video? What do you see?

[daniel_owen_uk]

See flying photos

[apolloa]

Originally Posted by Monty Burns

Trounces? Hardly. That depends on what you want to do with it

I said that the iPhone NOW is nothing more than a fashion statement. When it was launched it really pushed the boundaries and I'm glad it did! Its pushed people Like SPB and HTC to up the game significantly ... and what a job they have done. I'm not attacking the iPhone, i'll say it again, it does what it does brilliantly but its what it doesn't do.

Android? I've never used it and thats why I can't comment on it... other than what I've read and that is that it does support Flash after a fashion. N97? Flash LITE ... it makes a big diference.



Go to the website I posted above with Flashlite and see how that works


Works ok on my Omnia with its FULL Flash client

No your website doesn't work but I wasn't expecting it too. It doesn't stop me from viewing the website though, just the animation and I can still listen to the music clips. Interesting why the E71 works and your mates N9 doesn't??
I shall agree to disagree on the iPhone is a fashion statement comment and yes it does still trounce every other phone, Android is the closest to it, the others just aren't up to it as they still have clunky menus that require a stylus to use. Symbian Foundation will hopefully bring something new next year and WinMo 6.5 will make some headway leading to version 7.

But I am glad to see I was right about Android as it worked with your website. Possibly the best out the box browser.

[Monty Burns]

Originally Posted by apolloa

...

But I am glad to see I was right about Android as it worked with your website. Possibly the best out the box browser.

Well not really, I suspect your results were roughly the same as mine with Flash Lite. E71 Spanked us all!

However, with full flash which is just an app install then ....


Flash animation:
1.(joint) Worked 100% on my Omnia (winmob)
1.(joint) Worked 100% on E71 (but odly not n97)
2. No second (See joint 1st)
3. Worked low% on Android

Android? well... Not really the best is it?

So best browsing experience? E7 or Winmob. I'll sit with my mate tomorrow and we'll try n figure out why his N97 won't show it


On another only partialy relevant side of the coin, i tried some flash games. All failed. Now i suspect that might be because Opera is crashing as it can't run them on the low res of my Omnia. I expect my Acer M900 back from warranty tomorrow and I'll give them another go on an 800*480 screen. Fingers crossed! Be interesting to see how the E71 copes with these as well.