Image Retention in PG6000 series

bossc@ · 27-08-2008, 8:16 AM

Hi

I've had a 42" PW5 Pansonic plasma for getting on for 5 years and also a 37" LZD70 Panny LCD for almost a year and am thinking of getting the 42PG6000 plasma, mainly due to aesthetics as we're redecorating etc, etc and we want to redo the look of our living room.

Now, I've never had any issue with the PW5 in all the time I've had it with retention, burn etc and thats from virtually constant use with a lot of kids channels with logos and also gaming. In fact, when fed a 720p signal, it knocks virtually everything else I've seen into a cocked hat for IQ. But its time to move on.

I'm looking at the 42PG6000 as its cheap and cheerful, looks fantastic and is getting some very good reviews but the more I look into it the more I'm concerned about the image retention issues that a lot of people say it exhibits.

I know theres a few posts in the main plasma forum but I thought I'd post in here to see if theres any responses regarding this issue specifically.

LG UK · 27-08-2008, 1:52 PM

All new LG Plasma TVs incorporate anti-image retention technologies within them. There is an 'orbiter' which automatically moves the picture subtly to avoid burn-in from on-screen logos.

Should the worst happen and burn-in occur, the TVs also feature remedying functions, either by inverting the picture or in the worst possible cases, whiting out the screen entirely.

Chris

bossc@ · 28-08-2008, 7:32 AM

Cheers LG Blog

Its not so much burn I'm concerend about but retention, as in, the panels phosphors retaining image for short periods after the image has changed. Theres quite a few people in the main plasma forum mentioning this and quite a few of the online reviews. Just wondered what LGs stance was on this.

snowy2004 · 22-09-2008, 12:01 PM

As I am awaiting delivery of a 50PG6000 I would also like an answer to this question. IE: What is LG's stance on image retention on the 6000 series panels?

pcookie · 22-09-2008, 12:57 PM

I've just bought the PG6000 and although it's early days, I cant see any retention. Maybe some people are more prone to seeing it. Maybe it's far more noticeable the bigger the screen is, or how close you sit.
I've asked this question in another thread without reply - how do I activate the screen wash/invert system?

cookie

bossc@ · 23-09-2008, 10:15 AM

I just posted this in the main plasma forum under the PG6000 thread -

"I set mine up on Sunday and let my 4 year old loose with Lego Star Wars yesterday, I noticed that after playing 1 level that the health/player icon in the top left of the screen were retained after switching to a dark screen, so I turned it off (even he asked me what the picture was for when it was left on a dark screen!), the image stayed for about 20 minutes before fading.

I also noticed side bars being retained after watching a 4:3 episode of MASH.

I've read up a bit on the issues people have with image retention but this seems very severe. I had a 5 series Panasonic for almost 5 years with lots of gaming going on that and never had any retention whatsoever - maybe I've been spoilt but 20 minutes retention after 15 minutes gaming is a bit of a mickey take...."

I'm a bit disappointed at the moment, but will monitor to see how it goes. Have sent a mail to LG support on the issue......

bossc@ · 24-09-2008, 11:57 AM

Just posted this over in the main Plasma forum in the PG6000 thread in response to vipergm's post. I sent a query to LG and got a response that looks like a standard copy and paste and never really answered my query.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bossc@
Cheers Viper - I sent off a query to LG as below - :

"I installed this TV on Sunday 21/09/08 at home and have noticed a severe image retention when the image is changing. If there are any bright images on screen that changes to a dark screen, the outline of what was there is still visible for quite some time. For example, my sone was playing a Star Wars game on the PS3 and I noticed that even after a matter of minutes of him playing that when the screen changed, the outline of some of the display was still there and it persisted for about 20 minutes before disappearing. I turned the console off as soon as I noticed it, I understand about not having static images on screen for too long but this was only after a few minutes of playing, but then again, this set does have a 'game mode' so its presumably capable of being used for console play. I'm extremely concerened as I've never experienced any of this with either my previous Hitachi 42PD3000 Plasma or my Panasonic 42" PWD5 Plasma that I had for over 4 years. The Panasonic was used extensively with both Xbox 360 and PS3 without any image retention whatsoever. Please note that this is not exclusive to games (so far I have only let him play that one and it was turned off as soon as it was noticed - and that was after a few minutes). It is also there if changing from bordered images etc. When the image changes to a dark scene there can be multiple outlines on a dark background that makes watching anything very distracting, I'm also very concerned about the long term effects."

and the response back -

"What you are seeing is not screen burn and whitewash is not necessary. Burn will be evident if an image is still viewable on the screen after the set has been turned of for several hours and then when turned on again, every image has the old image from when the screen was previously used before being turned off is still visible.
What you are seeing is image retention. This is a natural characteristic of phosphor, it is after glow. It is affected by high levels of brightness and contrast, as these cause the phosphor to be driven harder to produce more light and therefore glow for longer.
Best regards,
LG Electronics UK Helpdesk"

***??? Where did I mention screen burn? Completely wide of the point or any answer that would mean anything to my query.

I love the set, IQ is great, aesthetically its head and shoulders above the others but the IR is a real issue. I had the V+ menu up last night for just over 1 minute and it too over 5 to dissipate. I'll be contacting my dealer today.

vipergm's response to my post
bossc@, this is uncanny, I got exactly the same reply from LG. It's clearly a template. I sent a follow-up email which they never replied to. Let me know how you get on with your retailer. I will do the same. The problem is, I think I may already have permanent screen burn to a slight degree

LGBlog - any chance you may be able to find out if there is a perceived issue with IR within the company on the PG6000 series or if I'm unlucky with some extreme IR. Bit silly to ask I know as I'm sure a company wouldn't admit to a flawed product but its worth a shot. I understand the technology, how it works and possible limitations but I've had plasmas for 5 years or so now and the PG6000 is the only one to exhibit any IR, never mind to such an extreme to a point where I would descibe it as not fit for purpose.

snowy2004 · 24-09-2008, 12:16 PM

This is a question I also asked a while back in this very same sub-forum. No response whatsoever from LGBlog. It is possible, I suppose, that they missed my earlier thread.

However, one would expect an answer to this from LG on an official LG sub-forum. It would look very very bad for them (and almost be an admission of a problem) if they were not to answer. With this in mind, it seems certain that they missed the earlier thread as I am sure they aren't just pretending not to have noticed it.

So... let's keep on bumping - We want to make sure they don't miss this one as well

EDIT: For completeness here is the earlier thread link : Advice on 50PG6000 please

And here are the questions I asked in it :

Hi all,

I am about to purchase an LG 50PG6000 (Great price of £869 at Argos).

I am just a little worried by two issues : Image Retention & Screen Burn

After reading the various threads about these two issues I would like to ask the following questions :

1. Is the 50" PG6000 panel more prone to image retention than other models?

2. Are there any sub-standard 50PG6000 batches floating around - I ask simply because the price at Argos seems cheap and they are actually excluding that particular set from their "30-day money back guarantee"

3. People are reporting IR from things like the on-screen menus that have only been displayed for a minute or two - is this normal?

4. What is LG's policy on replacing panels that suffer from permanent screen burn?

5. What is LG's policy on replacing panels that suffer from higher than normal IR (and how would LG define "higher than normal" IR)?

vipergrm · 24-09-2008, 4:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LG Blog

All new LG Plasma TVs incorporate anti-image retention technologies within them. There is an 'orbiter' which automatically moves the picture subtly to avoid burn-in from on-screen logos.

Should the worst happen and burn-in occur, the TVs also feature remedying functions, either by inverting the picture or in the worst possible cases, whiting out the screen entirely.

Chris

LG Blog,

Thank you for your response. Just to let you know what I currently have ALL my inputs set on 'Orbiter' but there is still image retention and ultimately the possibility of permanent screen burn. For example, I was watching the Ryder Cup at the weekend and despite ensuring the input was set to 'Orbiter' I could quite easily see the retention left by the scoreboard at the top of the screen. It did not seem to help at all as it took many hours for the image to return to normal in this part of the screen.

I have also used the 'Whitewash' option for hours on end but this still doesn't seem to make much, if any difference as I can still see some channel logos very slightly in 'whitewash' mode, despite leaving it for many hours (overnight on several occasions).

I have also owned about 6 plasmas in total and I have never experienced image retention anywhere near as severe as this. For those of you who don't know, I actually returned my first LG 50PG6000 after a week because of severe image retention. I then opted for a Panasonic 46PZ80, but due it's smaller size, far more expensive price tag and general all round average performance, I returned this and opted for another 50PG6000 in the hope that the one I initially owned was faulty.

I'm now convinced that there is indeed an issue with image retention at least on the PG6000 model. I don't know whether this has been address with newer sets but it is something that concerns me deeply with what is otherwise an absolutely outstanding television. Certainly the best I have owned (aside from a 42" Pioneer Kuro I had for a few weeks).

In response to bossc@'s post regarding LG's email reply, this is of no help or relevance whatsoever. I sent a follow-up email which LG chose to ignore. I would really appreciate a response from LG advising how we tackle this problem.

Thanks and regards,

ViperGRM

snowy2004 · 24-09-2008, 5:41 PM

Good post Viper - My TV is due to arrive from Argos soon - I am a little worried because Argos seem to be deliberately excluding this set from the 30 day money back guarantee so I would have to reject it within the first 7 days under the distance selling regulations.

bossc@ · 24-09-2008, 8:05 PM

LGBlog

Please can you have a look at my post #1107 on this page

LG PG6000 series thread - Part 1

snowy2004 · 24-09-2008, 9:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bossc@

LGBlog

Please can you have a look at my post #1107 on this page

LG PG6000 series thread - Part 1

Your other post is excellent - it may be a good idea to re-post it in it's entirety here.

bossc@ · 25-09-2008, 7:54 AM

Here you go.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bossc@

Ok, I'll see if this works and hope the images work.

I turned by V+ box to the menu and left it on for just over a minute:

Turned off the STB and was left with this:

3 minutes later, the image is still visible and you can see the trail where the 'no signal' box has orbited around the screen in an offset diamond shape, this changes position every couple of seconds

I then booted up the PS3 and again left it on the menu screen for 1 minute

after turning it off you can clearly see the PS3 menu as well as the V+ menu as well. This was 7 minutes after turning off the V+ box.

Not a perfect experiment I know but it shows that the IR is there. These were both after being on static images for 1 minute. After my son played Star Wars lego for 1/2 an hour, the IR from the health and character Icon in the top left was bright enough to be visible over the top of a normal TV image

snowy2004 · 25-09-2008, 12:12 PM

Hi LGBlog - I noticed you have been busy answering questions this morning. Any chance of an answer to this thread please? I will also send you this request via PM.

If you are still looking for an answer then maybe an acknowledgement that you have seen the thread??

EDIT: As I post this, LGBlog is online replying to the thread A Challenge to LG re their new Plasmas. - Hopefully he/she will notice this thread back at the top and my PM and reply

EDIT AGAIN: LGBlog is currently (13:17 GMT) viewing this thread!!! Yaaayy!!!

snowy2004 · 25-09-2008, 12:34 PM

Well, LGBlog read this thread and then logged off! I can only assume that he/she has gone away to try and find some more information in order to help us out with a solution. I'm sure LGBlog will be back later on to post

vipergrm · 25-09-2008, 1:09 PM

I just posted a reply on the other thread. Let's hope it's not overlooked.

snowy2004 · 25-09-2008, 1:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vipergrm

I just posted a reply on the other thread. Let's hope it's not overlooked.

Might be an idea to re-post on here Viper. That post contained an excellent description of the IR issue that shows it is way beyond what should be expected for "normal" IR. There is no guarantee that LGBlog will read any other thread than the ones on this sub-forum.

LG UK · 25-09-2008, 1:16 PM

Hi snowy - I've passed on the screencaps earlier this week to the relevant person, still waiting for a reply but when I get it, it'll be here straight away. Thanks for keeping me on my toes!

snowy2004 · 25-09-2008, 1:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LG Blog

Hi snowy - I've passed on the screencaps earlier this week to the relevant person, still waiting for a reply but when I get it, it'll be here straight away. Thanks for keeping me on my toes!

And thank you for the reply

Seriously, it really is good to know that someone in LG is actually talking to the right people about this. I am guessing that this may turn out simply to be a faulty batch as I genuinely don't believe that LG (or any manafacturer) would actually release a plasma panel that has such terrible IR - A problem such as this would certainly have been noticed in the testing phase of the production cycle.

It is a sad fact that here on the forums the people who are NOT having IR issues won't post - such is the nature of the medium!

bossc@ · 25-09-2008, 2:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LG Blog

Hi snowy - I've passed on the screencaps earlier this week to the relevant person, still waiting for a reply but when I get it, it'll be here straight away. Thanks for keeping me on my toes!

Thanks very much LGBlog. I was a bit disheartened when I mailed my query to LG to get the verbatim response that Viper got - which wasn't even relevant to my query.

I could live with some small amount of IR but what I am seeing seriously worries me to its possible long term effect.

bossc@ · 28-09-2008, 9:24 PM

Mines gone - couldn't be arsed with getting a replacement as I had no doubt it would have the same issues, and the ******** answer from LG website didn't inspire hope. The missus had a look through the stock of the retailer and although the Pannys mave have the rep, she decided that they were simply too ugly (and I have to agree) she liked the look of the Samsung A656 series LCD. So she ordered a 46". The LG will be uplifted tomorrow and replaced - so we're going over to the dark side. I know that there is still a Samsung panel lottery with respect to what you get but it cant be worse than a virtually guaranteed dud. I had 2 x Samsung F86 40" LCD but had issues with both with respect to viewing angle so I got a Panny 37LZD70 - great SD but was absolutely eclipsed by the Samsung for HD and gaming. Due to our redecoration, room shift then we now sit directly opposite so it shouldn't be a issue and we went out to view a couple and those issues dont seem to be the same.

Retailer has been exceptional in their response and willingness to change out the set. I loved the PG for looks and IQ but the IR was a deal breaker. I was watching The Krays the other night on V+ and paused it to make a cup of coffee - came back and started the film and the pause box was overlaid on to the film. I wish everyone well in their endeavours to sort out the issue with LG but I have no doubt that the answer will be thats its an inherrent issue with all Plasma panels despite owning them for 5 years without a problem - which is crap.

Viper/Snowy - Good luck but its definitely a price point issue, shame that the price for design was a bit more than the price for technology.....

. Could be an absolute steal but it feels more like I was robbed.

vipergrm · 28-09-2008, 10:35 PM

I think that is probably a wise decision to change to something else. I already owned a PG6000 before this as you already know so I'm having concerns about getting the exact same replacement. I'm more worried about what the engineer is going to say tomorrow. If he says it's normal or whatever I'll be verty annoyed because I know damn well it isn't. I'm also wondering what way I stand with the delaer if the engineer agrees that it must be replaced. Should I insist on a replacement of another brand? They're a Panasonic dealer mainly but I agree with Bosssc@, theyr'e all butt ugly compared to the LG and to be honest, the LG is better in almost every other area anyway. I don't really fancy the Samsung plasmas either as I've heard there's issues with 24p judder and black levels.

If I had the money then the decision would be very easy indeed. I'd just get a Pioneer Kuro. I do like the sound of Samsung 46F86 LCD because there is no other affordable plasma right now that ticks all the boxes. I would have opted for a Panasonic 50PX80 and put up with it's bland looks but it doesn't exist (why oh why Panasonic).

The_Dood · 29-09-2008, 8:49 AM

Just wanted to say thanks to viper and bossc@ for their info on the PG6000 - I've been following a number of topics on here for months now (and only registered this morning!) and I'm still swaying on whether or not to pick a 50PG6000 up or not (upgrading from a 37LC2DB). Missus is quite keen, but I don't fancy putting up with the IR. Having said that, the display model in my local Curry's seems bulletproof and that's kinda what keeps me going back for a look....

snowy2004 · 29-09-2008, 8:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Dood

Just wanted to say thanks to viper and bossc@ for their info on the PG6000 - I've been following a number of topics on here for months now (and only registered this morning!) and I'm still swaying on whether or not to pick a 50PG6000 up or not (upgrading from a 37LC2DB). Missus is quite keen, but I don't fancy putting up with the IR. Having said that, the display model in my local Curry's seems bulletproof and that's kinda what keeps me going back for a look....

Funnily enough, the display model in our local Curry's also doesn't display any sign of IR!

The display model 50" full hd panasonic plasma in our local Tesco Extra however is displaying lots of lovely screen burn - Maybe it's something to do with the fact that the muppets leave the same PS3 menu screen on it 24/7 !!!

(That wasn't a dig at the pana by the way - lovely set - just a dig at the Tesco Muppets)

**RottenFox** · 29-09-2008, 10:36 AM

@ bossc@,
the A656,whilst a nice looking set, has its own set of problems, namely quality control,and some picture problems, and finally the really bad sound..

@vipergm,
the F86 is a pain in the ****.
samsung just havent found a firmware that resolves its issues,and i doubt they will,as that tv was discontinued a long time ago..
and samsungs plasma's have the same issues as their lcds,namely motion,and black levels problems,
but have the uncanny knack of being so hot to the touch on the top/rear of the tv,its frightening.

snowy2004 · 29-09-2008, 11:42 AM

Any news yet on this issue LGBlog ???? I noticed your'e online at the moment.

(I'm not stalking you - honest!!

Just really want to know if the IR is inherent in the design of this set or if it is an issue with the odd set here and there?)

LG UK · 29-09-2008, 12:28 PM

No update for this specific problem, no, alas. I've gone in a bit more explanation about why it's taken so long here - in short, it's being looked at, but sometimes I need to canvas the opinions of multiple people and the real world takes a little longer than online. As soon as I get more information I'll have it hear. Stalk away though I don't mind.

snowy2004 · 29-09-2008, 12:41 PM

Thanks for the reply LGBlog. I realise that it does take a while for these things to be looked at. Still, it's good to know that the wheels are turning so to speak.

I should be taking delivery of my 50PG6000 in about a week so I will, obviously, be looking for unreasonable IR and will duly report here.

One thing that did spring to mind : LG "pre-condition" the panels at the factory to reduce/elminate the need for "running-in". We all know that after the 200hr or so run-in period a panel's IR should be much better. Is it possible that some panels were released without the correct factory run-in and that is why we are having reports of some set with no (or little) IR and some with heavy IR?

vipergrm · 29-09-2008, 2:36 PM

Ok, I just got a call from the repair company to say they were coming out to lift the TV? They never mentioned this on the phone when they called me on Friday. They said it will take on average about 5 working days to return the set. Of course, if it needs parts or whatever it'll be away for longer. They don't provide temporary televisions either. I'm really quite annoyed about this as my understanding was that the engineer was going to come out and diagnose the problem first of all. I told them not to bother coming out as I don't want to be without a TV for an unspecified amount of time. What should I say to them? I have a feeling they're not going to make things easy. I spent £1,200 on this set and I don't think it's unreasonable to expect the dealer to be doing a lot more. It's infuriating me. I'm wondering what I should suggest to them before I call. Ideas welcome!

mjcairney · 29-09-2008, 4:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vipergrm

I spent £1,2000 on this set and I don't think it's unreasonable to expect the dealer to be doing a lot more. It's infuriating me. I'm wondering what I should suggest to them before I call. Ideas welcome!

One Zero too many there (I hope), but not to worry.

As a matter of interest, what dealer did you purchase from?

Cheers,

Martin.