Is this banding? Is it normal for an LCD tv?

[tb1234]

I bought a KDL-40V3000U about a month ago and am really pleased with it apart from one major thing. I think it might be banding, but basically on any colour gradient there are noticeable bands. Similar to when you save a JPEG as a GIF - I have posted a picture of my sony KDL-40V3000U here It is only noticeable in situations like the one in the picture so it is not that common, but is it normal?

This is from the HD Superman returns trailer downloaded from the Sony Store and played back on my PS3 using a HDMI cable.

Cheers,

Tony

[Phill1978]

Originally Posted by tb1234

I bought a KDL-40V3000U about a month ago and am really pleased with it apart from one major thing. I think it might be banding, but basically on any colour gradient there are noticeable bands. Similar to when you save a JPEG as a GIF - I have posted a picture of my sony KDL-40V3000U here It is only noticeable in situations like the one in the picture so it is not that common, but is it normal?

This is from the HD Superman returns trailer downloaded from the Sony Store and played back on my PS3 using a HDMI cable.

Cheers,

Tony

some do have this, although most are claiming high bit colour and trillions of colours they look like 32colour tv`s not sure why these manufacturers lie so bad
TBH

[RottenFox]

Originally Posted by tb1234

I bought a KDL-40V3000U about a month ago and am really pleased with it apart from one major thing. I think it might be banding, but basically on any colour gradient there are noticeable bands. Similar to when you save a JPEG as a GIF - I have posted a picture of my sony KDL-40V3000U here It is only noticeable in situations like the one in the picture so it is not that common, but is it normal?

This is from the HD Superman returns trailer downloaded from the Sony Store and played back on my PS3 using a HDMI cable.

Cheers,

Tony

thats not banding,its called posterization.
read more here:
http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tut...terization.htm
not much you can do,really,apart from try to set up your tv best you can.

[tb1234]

Thanks for the clarification, so is this a feature of all LCD TV's?

I have used the recommended settings from the setting forum for this set, but nothing seems to affect this.

Tony

[RottenFox]

no,i wouldnt say its a feature,but tv's with 8 bit panels,it happens on,more.
is the panel in your tv,an 8bit or 10bit one.
does it happen on all feeds,or not.

[tb1234]

Yes the one I have is 8bit I have only really noticed it on the HD sources, but will look out for it on the other sources.

I couldn't see any difference in the shop between the Sony KDL-40V3000 (mine 8bit) and the KDL-40W3000 (10bit) apart from a few hundred pounds

So I went for the former, I suppose things will improve as the technology gets better.

Cheers,

Tony

[Hoax]

Wow that looks nasty, never seen anything like it ..

EDIT - oh wait the other thing im seeing is probably from the flash or a reflecting light on the screen :P

If you still want to know what banding is:

Its a change in color because the backlights are not even ..
It will most likely show up during camera pannings or if you have a really bad set it will show up in every occasion its best visisble on occasions where the whole screen is filled with the same colour so its easier to spot uneven patterns ..

For example when you watch sports played on grass and the camera moves to the left or right you will see one or more vertical bands where the grass seems darker or lighter than the rest of the field ..

[funkyspider]

Originally Posted by RottenFox

thats not banding,its called posterization.
read more here:
http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tut...terization.htm
not much you can do,really,apart from try to set up your tv best you can.

So what is banding then if it isn't the visible steps between colour shades seen in the example ?

[Hoax]

Originally Posted by funkyspider

So what is banding then if it isn't the visible steps between colour shades seen in the example ?

read the post above yours

[funkyspider]

I'll get my coat...

Cheers

[markrl]

If you want to see real banding just pop into Curry's and ask to see a Sharp Aquos XD1 or XD2 on display. They are the current market leaders in this area and way ahead of all the other LCD manufactures. Their banding is absolutely top notch .

[Nielo TM]

Originally Posted by RottenFox

no,i wouldnt say its a feature,but tv's with 8 bit panels,it happens on,more.
is the panel in your tv,an 8bit or 10bit one.
does it happen on all feeds,or not.

LCDs can't display true 10bit

PS: Nearly all HDTVs suffer from that effect and can be caused by several factors. One of which is modern compression codecs, which improves compression efficiency by lowering the bit-rate (data rate, not color) around non-moving/dark areas. However, the effect is more noticeable now due to the new gamma profile used by nearly all modern LCDs. I suppose the image can be up-sampled to 10-14 Bit-Per-Color but we don't have any display that can truly display that level of depth, well... apart from CRT.

[andrewfee]

All flat panels/digital displays seem to do this to some degree and it's yet another reason to stick to CRT for now in my opinion. (motion handling and black levels being the other two main reasons)

Hopefully we'll eventually see one of the manufacturers fix it, but it doesn't seem likely to happen any time soon when the market is pushing for cheaper prices.

[novcze]

Originally Posted by Nielo TM

LCDs can't display true 10bit

how`s that?

[Nielo TM]

The liquid crystals on the LCD twist and turn 256 times to produce 256 shades of color, which is equal to 16.6 m colors, which is equal to 24bit color total (8bpc). In order to produce 10 bit color, the crystals have to twist and turn 1024 times to produce ~1 billion colors (30 bit in total), this is however near impossible to achieve and not worth effort. Especially since OLED and FED are just around the corner.

[andrewfee]

I was actually wondering about this Neilo - Sony claim to have both a 10-bit panel and processing in their latest displays. It was my understanding that this meant they had a 10-bit LUT and could display 1024 steps of gradation.

Eizo sells LCD graphic monitors with a 12-bit LUT and 16-bit processing which they claim produces greyscale rendering on par with a CRT.

Take this for example:

Originally Posted by http://www.eizo.com/products/graphics/cg301w/features.asp#16bit

DUE utilizes the monitor's 12-bit look-up table (LUT) with an extensive palette of 4,081 grayscale tones for each R, G, and B, and internal calculation accuracy of 16-bits to compensate for brightness and chroma discrepancies.

It certainly sounds to me like the 12-bit LUT means the display itself can show 4081 tones, rather than being limited to 8-bit as you suggest.

[Nielo TM]

It is done through simulation (FRC and dithering). And if you look at the panel Eizo uses, they are just standard 8bit panels.

PS: A TN panel (commonly found in budget PC monitors and portable devices) can only display 262,144 colors (2^6 x 2^6 x 2^6 = 64 x 64 x 64 = 262.144). By using FRC (Frame Rate Control) and dithering, manufactures were able to simulate higher colors without physically altering the panel (e.g. 262K + FRC + dithering = 16.2 million colors). This exactly how 10bit color and 14bit monochrome display work by using a native 8bit panel.


HDTVs on the other hand use internal picture processing to simulate higher number of shades which ranges from 8bit to 14bit. The purpose of this chip is to smooth out gray scales, therefore by creating the elution of 10bit color on an 8bit panel. But most of the time, these processing cause more banding than just 8bit processing.

PPS: I have an 8bit VA monitor and there’s hardly any banding at all. I however, I can’t say the same about my BRAVIA, which also has an 8bit PVA panel.

Edit: I do have point out that thanks to adaptive gamma correction embedded in the video processor, my BRAVIA produces more natural image then my previous WEGA CRT and my PC monitor. Just goes to show you that banding isn't that big of a deal when it comes to TVs.

[tb1234]

It is fair to say that it is not that much of a big deal and it is only noticeable rarely i.e. when the gradient is quite extreme over a large area of the screen.

It is just something I wasn't expecting - I knew about the issues with dark scenes and the issues with watching sports. At least I now know I am not alone and it is nothing to worry about

Thanks again

Tony

[muffins]

Originally Posted by Nielo TM

The liquid crystals on the LCD twist and turn 256 times to produce 256 shades of color, which is equal to 16.6 m colors, which is equal to 24bit color total (8bpc). In order to produce 10 bit color, the crystals have to twist and turn 1024 times to produce ~1 billion colors (30 bit in total), this is however near impossible to achieve and not worth effort. Especially since OLED and FED are just around the corner.

Very interesting...I was looking at some lcd's in a shop the other day they where philips cineos and on the sticker around the tv it claimed to have 4 trillion colours, whats that about?

[Nielo TM]

Marketing hipe, just like contrast and response time

[markrl]

I’m afraid all the manufacturers appear to have their own proprietary system of measuring and quoting the various performance measures of their own sets which makes comparison across brands using their published specification at times somewhat difficult. It’s a bit like reading a party political manifesto it needs to be taken with a fair degree of scepticism. Contrast and black levels is another great area for obfuscation and a few little porkpies. This is why it’s so important to look with your own eyes.

[novcze]

Originally Posted by Nielo TM

PPS: I have an 8bit VA monitor and there’s hardly any banding at all. I however, I can’t say the same about my BRAVIA, which also has an 8bit PVA panel.

Have you any personal experience with 10-bit Bravia?

[Nielo TM]

Originally Posted by tb1234

It is fair to say that it is not that much of a big deal and it is only noticeable rarely i.e. when the gradient is quite extreme over a large area of the screen.

It is just something I wasn't expecting - I knew about the issues with dark scenes and the issues with watching sports. At least I now know I am not alone and it is nothing to worry about

Thanks again

Tony

no prob

But like I said before, so many contents have banding (most of which are video games, lossy-compressed motion videos and lossy-compressed still images).

If you want to eliminate the possibility of your TV, which is unlikely, carry-out the following:

1. Connect your PC to the TV via DVI/HDMI using video mode (720p/1080p).
2. Display the image below and see if you can notice any banding

Alternatively, you can run this self-contained application from Eizo

[Nielo TM]

Originally Posted by novcze

Have you any personal experience with 10-bit Bravia?

Simple answer, no

[deadman1206]

I've also seen this on my KDL40V3000. I recognize it in the ads, I think it's the Ford ads.

[ezechiel1917]

Originally Posted by Nielo TM

no prob

But like I said before, so many contents have banding (most of which are video games, lossy-compressed motion videos and lossy-compressed still images).

If you want to eliminate the possibility of your TV, which is unlikely, carry-out the following:

1. Connect your PC to the TV via DVI/HDMI using video mode (720p/1080p).
2. Display the image below and see if you can notice any banding

Alternatively, you can run this self-contained application from Eizo

Just for a record,
my F86 with 10bit S-PVA panel has ugly banding on that picture, while
my notebook with 6bit TN panel looks almost perfect.

[tb1234]

Originally Posted by ezechiel1917

Just for a record,
my F86 with 10bit S-PVA panel has ugly banding on that picture

That is good to know as the Samsung F86 series was on my shortlist. I didn't make the wrong choice choosing the Sony as they all suffer from the same problem.

This effect is also really noticeable during fade in and fade out. The eizo test is great, but if you want to see this effect in its full glory have a look at this clip - 20s into trailer 1 from http://www.apple.com/trailers/wb/supermanreturns/hd/

It looks much worse on my Viewsonic monitor than it does on the Sony TV

Tony

[Nielo TM]

That's caused by the compression and the new gamma profile exposes that.

[muffins]

Originally Posted by Nielo TM

no prob

But like I said before, so many contents have banding (most of which are video games, lossy-compressed motion videos and lossy-compressed still images).

If you want to eliminate the possibility of your TV, which is unlikely, carry-out the following:

1. Connect your PC to the TV via DVI/HDMI using video mode (720p/1080p).
2. Display the image below and see if you can notice any banding

Alternatively, you can run this self-contained application from Eizo

Looking at this on my 15" dell computer monitor I cant see any banding, only a slight difference in shade. On my Samsung LE40M87 I can see very slight banding but I really have to stare at the screen, so I guess Im happy with the screen.

[Nielo TM]

Laptop screens rarely have banding, but lucky you