[jono t]

Originally Posted by StickyWinkey

If you read post 7 you will find all the answers to everything you have written above! Just read that post before you post? It's a simple way of not misquoting someone or getting it wrong!

PC mode disabling "all" 3D options is not strictly true, it was one of the first bugs I posted on the LM960v (on day 1 of owning the tv) but the 3D menu can be enabled when using PC mode @ 60hz and only disables the 3D menu for that particular HDMI not "all" inputs when a 24/50hz signal is presented.

Again all of this is in my post!

You can't get a Sky+HD box to output 60hz, so its irrelevant
even change Sky box to 720p disables real cinema, so Pc mode
is no option if you have Sky 3D.

[StickyWinkey]

Originally Posted by jono t

You can't get a Sky+HD box to output 60hz, so its irrelevant
even change Sky box to 720p disables real cinema, so Pc mode
is no option if you have Sky 3D.

This is what I mean about making things up!

1 - I never said that a "sky box" can output at 60hz?

2 - I run everything via my HTPC so I can run all my cable/satelite/movies/freeview/tv box sets 3D etc at any hz I so desire! Using a a cable/satelite card and/or my HTPC and/or my PVR software I can personally do whatever hz I want with any content.

But still whats your point?

I already reported that labeling a hdmi as PC disables 3D options for 24/50hz content (which includes sky boxes) I reported this bug on day 1, over a month ago when i recieved my first LM960v. There are many posts on this back in part 1 and part 2 of the 960v thread from me about this issue.
Including the infamous post 7 I keep referring you too

I am confused as to what point you are trying to make?

All you seem to be doing here is asking me if I know of issues with the tv that I already initally reported?

Of course I do? ... I reported them?

If you want to watch SBS content while in PC mode it must be presented @60hz (which I do from my HTPC) otherwise change the label?

But now you will have additional mouse lag?
However, if your using a sky box only (not a HTPC) then mouse lag is irrelevant?

What is it you trying to say?

[jono t]

Originally Posted by StickyWinkey

This is what I mean about making things up!

1 - I never said that a "sky box" can output at 60hz?

2 - I run everything via my HTPC so I can run all my cable/satelite/movies/freeview/tv box sets 3D etc at any hz I so desire! Using a a cable/satelite card and/or my HTPC and/or my PVR software I can personally do whatever hz I want with any content.

But still whats your point?

I already reported that labeling a hdmi as PC disables 3D options for 24/50hz content (which includes sky boxes) I reported this bug on day 1, over a month ago when i recieved my first LM960v. There are many posts on this back in part 1 and part 2 of the 960v thread from me about this issue.
Including the infamous post 7 I keep referring you too

I am confused as to what point you are trying to make?

All you seem to be doing here is asking me if I know of issues with the tv that I already initally reported?

Of course I do? ... I reported them?

If you want to watch SBS content while in PC mode it must be presented @60hz (which I do from my HTPC) otherwise change the label?

But now you will have additional mouse lag?
However, if your using a sky box only (not a HTPC) then mouse lag is irrelevant?

What is it you trying to say?

I think what Iam trying to say is when using a sky box labeled satallite,
I don't get any of the issuses reported, when i use blu ray player labeled
blu ray at 1080p/24p i get no issues, you say you view all you content
via HTCP in pc mode, is it this mode or the HTPC which presents
these issuses , maybe this is why it was not picked up before, if review
was done in expert mode labeled HDMI 1 or cable box. sat box etc.

[Edwe]

What about the moving on part?

[Outfoxed Ya]

Originally Posted by Edwe

What about the moving on part?

Ditto

[Outfoxed Ya]

Originally Posted by andyblu76

why would you put it in pc mode when watching movie!! unless you have ps3 but again if you buy this tv bcz u want thebest PQ possible why do people use ps3 for watching movie on..spend crazy money on this tv that not worth it if people are so in to PQ like mysrlf why why use ps3!! lol

I think you'll find the PS3 despite being predominantly a games console is still one of the best bluray players out there

[elgriego]

The hdtvtest review of the 47LM960V is up. They find all the issues mentioned. I have to admit that I wonder why LG released this model to the market. Full local dimming is not full and it produces very grey blacks and bad uniformity so why release it at all?

[Nibbo68]

Originally Posted by elgriego

The hdtvtest review of the 47LM960V is up. They find all the issues mentioned. I have to admit that I wonder why LG released this model to the market. Full local dimming is not full and it produces very grey blacks and bad uniformity so why release it at all?

According to the review, the latest firmware fixed the 24p bug and they congratulated LG for doing so.

[GerardH]

Originally Posted by Nibbo68

According to the review, the latest firmware fixed the 24p bug and they congratulated LG for doing so.

Originally Posted by review

When the 47″ LM960V first arrived with us, it featured a bug where the vertical resolution of the image would sometimes be reduced (even with 1080 progressive input). We first caught this during playback of movies on Blu-ray, where the image became blurred slightly in the vertical direction during some movement. It was easy to spot if we pulled up the disc’s menu – the (static) fine font details would alternate between clear and blurred depending on the on-screen motion. Firmware version 03.04.05 corrected this, so thumbs up to LG.

May i ask where did you read that the firmware update fixed the 24p bug?


And can someone tell the reviewer that the lm960 is a full-led lcd tv and not an edge-lit lcd

Originally Posted by review

However, like nearly every side-lit LED LCD TV we’ve reviewed, the lower end of the greyscale was tinted blue, which we understand is related to the use of side-mounted LEDs as a light source

With small details like this noted, we should mention that local dimming on side-lit LED LCDs is far from perfect, anyway.

[byron_hinson]

Originally Posted by Nibbo68

According to the review, the latest firmware fixed the 24p bug and they congratulated LG for doing so.

I don't see where it says the 24p bug had been fixed - its related to a different issue.

[andyblu76]

Originally Posted by Outfoxed Ya

I think you'll find the PS3 despite being predominantly a games console is still one of the best bluray players out there

yeah in the £100+ mark

[DR Kronenbourg]

Originally Posted by Edwe

What about the moving on part?

Originally Posted by Outfoxed Ya

Ditto

Glad to see the LG board hasn't lost it's spice*






* pulls up chair and six pack for 980T round 2

[Nibbo68]

Originally Posted by byron_hinson

I don't see where it says the 24p bug had been fixed - its related to a different issue.

I presumed this was the same thing.


When the 47″ LM960V first arrived with us, it featured a bug where the vertical resolution of the image would sometimes be reduced (even with 1080 progressive input). We first caught this during playback of movies on Blu-ray, where the image became blurred slightly in the vertical direction during some movement. It was easy to spot if we pulled up the disc’s menu – the (static) fine font details would alternate between clear and blurred depending on the on-screen motion. Firmware version 03.04.05 corrected this, so thumbs up to LG.

[elgriego]

Originally Posted by GerardH

...

And can someone tell the reviewer that the lm960 is a full-led lcd tv and not an edge-lit lcd

I think they use it comparatively and not literally that the LM960V is edge lit but to justify the method used. It goes on to say "As such, instead of adjusting the low end controls around 20% stimulus and the high end around 80%, we instead adjusted around 30% and 80%, in order to get as much of the Greyscale range as flat as possible."

So the way I understand it is that they had a change in their 2-point correction method because of the results of the edge lits. Isn't it so?

[elgriego]

Originally Posted by Nibbo68

I presumed this was the same thing.


When the 47″ LM960V first arrived with us, it featured a bug where the vertical resolution of the image would sometimes be reduced (even with 1080 progressive input). We first caught this during playback of movies on Blu-ray, where the image became blurred slightly in the vertical direction during some movement. It was easy to spot if we pulled up the disc’s menu – the (static) fine font details would alternate between clear and blurred depending on the on-screen motion. Firmware version 03.04.05 corrected this, so thumbs up to LG.

This is not the 24p bug that I understand but where it says..
"There are still some issues with the 47LM960V that users and potential buyers should be aware of, though. First of all, there’s no fault-free way to get “cinematic” motion out of the HDTV. Let’s talk about the [Real Cinema] mode. This is a combined film mode deinterlacing AND 24p output option. Turning it On should:".....goes on to describe it with Real cinema mode on and then off.

They describe it slightly differently but I think is the 24p bug described here and on other reviews.

[J4CK DANIELS]

Originally Posted by StickyWinkey

This "head office" they mention I have never spoken to, been given a contact number, been called by or even been given a reference number through this entire process.

I have no contact details,
No contact name,
No contact information,
No tracking code,
No reference for my call.

Every time I call then they say "case closed"
Every time I email them they say "case closed"

They say the this is not a fault!
They are obtuse, offensive and downright lazy!

As unsaid to them, do you think the level of service you are providing me (as a customer who bought their flagship product) is at a standard THEY PERSONALLY would expect of THEY had spent £3000 on something in their daily life (or a member of their family).

No morlals, no customer service abilities what so ever and, quite frankly, wha appears to be a sociopathic breeding ground for terrible ongoing customer service representatives.

1. Just google LG slough....

2. 01753 491500

3. Ask to speak to this 'escalations team'

4. Tell them what you want and see what they say (then tell us if course!!.... )

By the way, do you still have the TV? Maybe that's why they didn't give you a reference number as most manufacturers log by model/serial number in my experience.

[hederick]

I'll buy this TV the next week for testing.
Apart from Harry Potter GOF, which blu ray movie can I use for testing?

P.S.: Sorry my bad english!

Regards from Chile!

[Zeroturn]

Originally Posted by elgriego

I think they use it comparatively and not literally that the LM960V is edge lit but to justify the method used........................

Isn't it so?

Sorry I can't agree, if they knew this was a full Array LED-backlit locally dimmed television they would not be saying it has a "pseudo Local Dimming feature" (like it is edge-lit) and they would not be using the word ersatz in their quote below.

Originally Posted by HDTVtest

The LG LM960V has a number of [LED Local Dimming] options: three levels of aggressiveness, and an Off switch. Turning the feature on will cause the LED lights to dim during dark scenes, and brighten during lighter ones, to give a sort of “ersatz” substitute for the performance of a full LED-backlit locally dimmed television.

Ersatz means 'substituting for, and typically inferior in quality to', e.g. 'chicory is ersatz coffee'. It is a German word literally meaning substitute or replacement.

[elgriego]

Originally Posted by Zeroturn

Sorry I can't agree, if they knew this was a full Array LED-backlit locally dimmed television they would not be saying it has a "pseudo Local Dimming feature" (like it is edge-lit) and they would not be using the word ersatz in their quote below.




Ersatz means 'substituting for, and typically inferior in quality to', e.g. 'chicory is ersatz coffee'. It is a German word literally meaning substitute or replacement.

Why not? Sorry but we think in different ways. I would say exactly that if I wanted to criticise the "full local dimming" that is not full then I would call it "pseudo" which is exactly that. In theory it should work like a full local dimming in the sense that the led zones are behind the panel but it is inferior quality wise.

I' ll admit that the review is not well written but you can deduct what I am saying is true from some parts of the text that say:
"The LG LM960V has a number of [LED Local Dimming] options: three levels of aggressiveness, and an Off switch. Turning the feature on will cause the LED lights to dim during dark scenes, and brighten during lighter ones, to give a sort of “ersatz” substitute for the performance of a full LED-backlit locally dimmed television (or better yet, a Plasma). " So far so good, they then go on to say at the conclusion:

"Like with most recent LED LCD televisions, the most remarkable thing about the LG 47LM960V is its styling. LCD picture quality seems to have peaked, especially since manufacturers have found it more worthwhile to make ultra-slim edge-lit LED TVs instead of those featuring LED local dimming."

So they clearly separate the edge lit LED TVs from those featuring LED local dimming and they have clearly stated that this TV "has a number of [LED Local Dimming] options" . They just find the LED local dimming to be so bad that they characterise it as "pseudo Local Dimming ". So not edge-lit LED TV which was my point from the beginning.

Besides do you really expect me to think that hdtvtest one of the best reviewing sites(again my opinon) along with the AVForums, do not know that this is the flagship LED LCD from LG and that they don't know that it is not edge lit. They spend all this money for equiment and they don't know something so basic??? My opinion is that it is badly written but its there you just have to try hard to understand what they mean . Anyhow anyone's entitled to their own opinion so if you think that they believe that this is an edge - lit LED TV go for it I won't blame you and it is not that important! I was just making my point.

[GerardH]

Originally Posted by elgriego

Besides do you really expect me to think that hdtvtest one of the best reviewing sites(again my opinon) along with the AVForums, do not know that this is the flagship LED LCD from LG and that they don't know that it is not edge lit. They spend all this money for equiment and they don't know something so basic??? My opinion is that it is badly written but its there you just have to try hard to understand what they mean . Anyhow anyone's entitled to their own opinion so if you think that they believe that this is an edge - lit LED TV go for it I won't blame you and it is not that important! I was just making my point.

You're right, and it's how you read the article. But then again...

Hi Gerard

Thanks for bringing this issue to our attention. The LG LM960V is indeed a full-array LED LCD TV (although it certainly does not look nor behave like one, hence our oversight)... we'll amend the article to reflect that.

Thanks again for your help in this matter, and sorry for any confusion caused.

Warmest regards
Vincent @ HDTVTest

[Zeroturn]

I agree it is badly written which means you can argue this either way. But yes my opinion is that they don't know this is a Full Array, they do not disrespect LG's local dimming (they said it works) and they show no interest in finding out or telling their readers the number of dimming zones, which is kind of a big thing with this type of TV. (I'm sure we can agree on that)

Please tell me where they criticised the local dimming in their review, surely "one of the best reviewing sites" you know of aren't just going to call the highly important local dimming "Pseudo" and "Ersatz" inferior with out saying why and how they have come to that conclusion !!!!!!!!!

Edit:

Thanks GerardH for simply asking them. (post above) Yes this TV is that bad they thought it was actually edge-lit.

[elgriego]

Originally Posted by Zeroturn

I agree it is badly written which means you can argue this either way. But yes my opinion is that they don't know this is a Full Array, they do not disrespect LG's local dimming (they said it works) and they show no interest in finding out or telling their readers the number of dimming zones, which is kind of a big thing with this type of TV. (I'm sure we can agree on that)

Please tell me where they criticised the local dimming in their review, surely "one of the best reviewing sites" you know of aren't just going to call the highly important local dimming "Pseudo" and "Ersatz" inferior with out saying why and how they have come to that conclusion !!!!!!!!!

Edit:

Thanks GerardH for simply asking them. (post above) Yes this TV is that bad they thought it was actually edge-lit.

I won't insist. I agree with you about the dimming zones they should have mentioned something. In my opinion and taking the reply from HDtvtest aside they clearly condemn the local dimming. But I said before it was badly written leaving space for different interpretations!

Thanks Gerard, for telling them and for posting it here!!!

[Zeroturn]

Originally Posted by elgriego

I won't insist. I agree with you about the dimming zones they should have mentioned something. In my opinion and taking the reply from HDtvtest aside they clearly condemn the local dimming. But I said before it was badly written leaving space for different interpretations!

Thanks Gerard, for telling them and for posting it here!!!

"I won't insist" (sorry not sure what your not insisting about)

They didn't condemn the (Pseudo) local dimming in the review, I got the impression they thought it was quite good for an edge-lit LCD. If they actually took an interest in this TV you might of expected them to know it was F/A and then they might not of been so nice about it. They also missed the fact that the design of this TV (bezel) is only possible due to the fact that it is back lit, have they not seen any other TV's in the range.

On the plus side if HDTVtest ever review an edge-lit and mistake it for a Full-Array then that might be a TV worth buying.

[elgriego]

Originally Posted by Zeroturn

"I won't insist" (sorry not sure what your not insisting about)

They didn't condemn the (Pseudo) local dimming in the review, I got the impression they thought it was quite good for an edge-lit LCD. If they actually took an interest in this TV you might of expected them to know it was F/A and then they might not of been so nice about it. They also missed the fact that the design of this TV (bezel) is only possible due to the fact that it is back lit, have they not seen any other TV's in the range.

On the plus side if HDTVtest ever review an edge-lit and mistake it for a Full-Array then that might be a TV worth buying.

I meant I wouldn't insist in changing your mind. We clearly disagree. You say that you got the impression they thought it was quite good for an edge-lit LCD. I never got the impression neither that they found to be good nor that they thought it was edge-lit. When the synthetic word "pseudo" is used before local dimming it contains the negative sense and it means fake/false(fake or false local dimming sounds negative enough for me). Then if they thought it was edge-lit they would have mentioned it(my opinion). The oversight was for me that they didn't mention it was actually full-array LED LCD and there they could have mentioned something more(negative) but judging by the final result it doesn't even matter as their findings are very bad even compared to an edge-lit so why argue? Blacks are bad, bugs are present and a high price= epic fail.

[Zeroturn]

Originally Posted by elgriego

I meant I wouldn't insist in changing your mind. We clearly disagree. You say that you got the impression they thought it was quite good for an edge-lit LCD. I never got the impression neither that they found to be good nor that they thought it was edge-lit. When the synthetic word "pseudo" is used before local dimming it contains the negative sense and it means fake/false(fake or false local dimming sounds negative enough for me). Then if they thought it was edge-lit they would have mentioned it(my opinion). The oversight was for me that they didn't mention it was actually full-array LED LCD and there they could have mentioned something more(negative) but judging by the final result it doesn't even matter as their findings are very bad even compared to an edge-lit so why argue? Blacks are bad, bugs are present and a high price= epic fail.

You say their final results are "very bad", but in their conclusion HDTVtest actually recommend the 960, they say the blacks are what they expected from an IPS panel and the local dimming improves black levels.

"Contrast performance is what we expected from an IPS LCD, and while the Local Dimming feature improves the perceived black levels, it can obviously dim white areas in dark scenes...........

The end result of all of this is a qualified recommendation"

Of course they don't mention it is a Full-array they thought it was an Edge lit, can I ask why you bothered to thank GerardH if you think he faked that email response from HDTVtest ?

[Har-One]

LG might no produce the best TVs but certainly it can produce the most controversial TVs.

It does not matter what might be written we will always read what we want to read. Reviews are like art we all interpret what we want.

[elgriego]

Originally Posted by Zeroturn

You say their final results are "very bad", but in their conclusion HDTVtest actually recommend the 960, they say the blacks are what they expected from an IPS panel and the local dimming improves black levels.

"Contrast performance is what we expected from an IPS LCD, and while the Local Dimming feature improves the perceived black levels, it can obviously dim white areas in dark scenes...........

The end result of all of this is a qualified recommendation"

Of course they don't mention it is a Full-array they thought it was an Edge lit, can I ask why you bothered to thank GerardH if you think he faked that email response from HDTVtest ?

Excuse me? Did I ever say that he faked the response? Are you out of your mind Sir? Please do not put words in my mouth that I 've never said and if you don't understand what I am saying don't bother with me !!! Where on earth did I say that he faked the hdtv response? Did you read the response from HDtvtest? Did they say that they admit that they've written it was an edge lit? They just mentioned and apologise for an oversight and I said that the oversight was not mentioning that this is a full-array LED TV. Not mentioning that it was a full array LED TV doesn't mean that it is not. Anyhow I thing you are either bugging me intentionally pretending you don't understand(maybe you get a kick out of this) what I write or you really don't. In both cases and to avoid further conflict and making other members tired of us I suggest from now on you don't comment on what I write and I won't on yours and let that be the end of it.

[GerardH]

Alright elgriego and Zeroturn, let's agree that we disagree

As far as i am concerned, they thought that it was a edge-lit tv that's why he responded that it was an oversight because the tv does not behave like a full-array led tv.

He has changed the text to reflect that it is not a edge-lit tv now. Some changes:

Originally Posted by Old

However, like nearly every side-lit LED LCD TV we’ve reviewed, the lower end of the greyscale was tinted blue, which we understand is related to the use of side-mounted LEDs as a light source

Originally Posted by New

However, similarly to side-lit LED LCD TVs we’ve reviewed, the lower end of the greyscale was tinted blue, which we understand is related to the use of LEDs as a light source

Originally Posted by Old

Turning the feature on will cause the LED lights to dim during dark scenes, and brighten during lighter ones, to give a sort of “ersatz” substitute for the performance of a full LED-backlit locally dimmed television

Originally Posted by New

Turning the feature on will cause the LED lights to dim during dark scenes, and brighten during lighter ones

Originally Posted by Old

With small details like this noted, we should mention that local dimming on side-lit LED LCDs is far from perfect, anyway.

Originally Posted by New

With small details like this noted, we should mention that local dimming on most LED LCDs is far from perfect, anyway.

[elgriego]

Originally Posted by GerardH

Alright elgriego and Zeroturn, let's agree that we disagree

Hear hear!!! I truly respect your opinion and everything you right here. Just I read what you read and I understand something different but do read it with respect and I thank you for your input.

[StickyWinkey]

Hi all,

I know nobody is reading this forum anymore, but I got my last email from trading standards and the citizens advice today, and well, I feel kind of smug!

LG have been advised that the my tv was in fact deemed:

"unable to support 24p material in its current state due to a hardware/software flaw."

And that

"the customer purchased the product based on the advertised specification at available to him at that time"

and that basically therefore i was entitled to a full refund as they had technically mis advertised the product!

I got my £3000 that was fine, but where I feel smug is this!
The tv now retails for £2599 so even if I bought it again Id make a profit of £400

AND

LG were advised to ensure that their future advertising was accurate for that tv/range!

And guess what's been removed from all sections of the advertised spec of the LM960 on the LG UK website!

That's right, unlike older/other TVs etc the LM960 (possibly the entire series) now makes no mention of the 24p support that it previously did when I bought mine

This means, chances are LG can't fix this in firmware as its a restriction of their first in house built processor put into the LM Series which, is exactly what Matty said he was told by an LG rep!

So LG have indeed removed the 24p support from the advertising of this tv (and possible the rest of the LM RANGE) after my persistent badgering

1 guy vs LG = Win + Profit

{clears throat}
{best Stewie voice}

Victory is mine

What a great way to start the day, I feel completely vindicated in every single way, I hope I've saved even just 1 person a real headache and I hope AVForuns listen to the users a little more closely from now on as their sample did have this issue as the TVs don't support 24p that's now a fact, just check the advertising folks

Have a great week guys and I'll see you in the PFL6007 thread when I test that tv in the coming weeks!

Jay