[Icm76]

Originally Posted by Bibby_83

I believe JVC use IPS panels on their LCD TVs

They don't ally themselves to any particular supplier or tech - I know a lot of the recent(ish) consumer TVs have been S-IPS, but the broadcast/pro monitors were always S-PVA. These new ultra slim monitors are probably ASV or some kind of *VA, given the review mentioning smearing black objects: JVC LT-42WX70 LCD Monitor Review at AVForums.com

[Julie]

Originally Posted by AntiEverything

Most people don't have a clue about TV technology and nor do they care.

Originally Posted by AntiEverything

Coming from someone who flogs Sonos players then I will take your comment with a pinch of salt.

Originally Posted by AntiEverything

In the meantime I certainly don't need some box shifter preaching at me.

No one was preaching at you - until now!

A bit less aggressive attitude from you would be appreciated & most welcome here. We all try & get along with each other here, even when we disagree - which is most of the time.

[darthdrinker]

Phew, I don't know how I did it, but I have read through all 5 pages of this topic so far. I will try to sum up some of the differences in the following table. Mind you, this is what I can make of it so far, so I'm open to any improvements. Everything is thought of purely from a back lighting perspective. So for each back light technique, presume we have the same high quality panel etc. and combine it with a different back lighting what would we get. Also I will try to think of the best possible technique for each back light option, so the best CCFL etc.

	- CCFL -	- Edge LED -	- Back LED -	comment
Energy consumption	high	low	medium	Less LED's means less energy consumption
Black levels	low	medium	high	More control over lights, some overlap with dimming
Dimming capabilities	low	medium	high	More control of when and where lights are on or of
Colour output	medium	low	high	With RGB LED's there's more colour available for the panel

Oke so, again, what would you say about my findings?
Can I start by stating that in a budget market LED isn't good enough yet and it can only shine(hehe) on high end(read high budget) models?

[tvbox]

Maybe they thought LED backlit edgelit diode not-a-new-technology etc

was a bit unweildy?

In the shop they are quite sharp, but thats actually down to the LCDs, not the LED backlights. I have to say though, blacks actually beat my panasonic X10 plasma . They were bit blue, but not greyish/green tinge.

Anyway, im not surprised the tv ad was taken off, but recently i have seen another one right here on AVF, where you hover the mouse over it and you have nice birds flying around the screen then info about the tv...

[Sereni7y]

I'm pretty narked off at this LED crap too, but it can have an upside. As you probably know, Sony should be releasing the new edge-lit range in the next month or two which will hopefully mean reduced prices on the KDLs.

Quick question though, I'm about to purchase a KDL32W5500 for £525. Do you think that's good enough of a bargain or should I give it another month or two for the LED ones to come out and drive the price down a bit more?

EDIT: Sorry for tacking a question on there but I didn't see a point in creating a thread for it!

[Studi]

Apologies but I am very poor at replying to AVForums. I simply do not have the time. Interesting thread though. Although, to be honest, I haven't read much of this.

Couple of points might be useful for people.

SONY use Samsung screens. Buy a Samsung. Much cheaper.
LED LCD power supplies are around 12mm deep and, although we supply used ones which are only a couple of months old, they look like they have done 10000 hours. Not surprising when you squash a PSU into such a small space without any air flow.
I'm not an expert as we only repair, not sell but the sound quality is awful. Not surprisingly, most users have sound pumped out via an AV System.

Couple of years time, we will be trying to supply parts and repair 3D TVs. Great fun. Hopefully I will be retired by then!

[Bat-man]

Originally Posted by guile42

guys, thankyou for all the information that you are giving, but i am little bit curious about plasma and lcd tv? are they thesame? some people they call plasma as lcd.. ive gt bravia but in the box it shows lcd.

thanks,

Plasma and LCD are very different technologies.
The other day a friend came around to my home and said "that's a nice plasma TV". I replied "No it's not - it's a nice LCD TV" to which he said "you know what I mean - they're all the same".
BTW your Bravia is an LCD based TV.

[Mr_Alex]

Originally Posted by Studi

SONY use Samsung screens. Buy a Samsung. Much cheaper.

Only panels are the same, rest entirely different. You buy a cheap Samsung but let people decide for themselves when trying and comparing them in shops.

Philips uses sharp panels. Buy a sharp much cheaper

[Calibrator]

Originally Posted by Studi

Couple of points might be useful for people.

SONY use Samsung screens. Buy a Samsung. Much cheaper.

Sony uses, among others, panels from the Samsung-Sony joint venture "S-LCD" (they now also have a joint-venture with Sharp).

Samsung on the other hand not only uses S-LCD-panels, but several from CMO and AUO - look up "panel lottery" on some forums to get an impression about that.

Not even taking the different picture processing into account: Even if the panel is exactly the same - most Sonys, at least until now, have a semi-matte finish while most Samsungs are ultra-glossy.
While many customers favour this shiny look and don't mind watching themselves in the mirror-like panels some customers abstain from buying them and prefer matted panels.

bye
Calibrator

[Studi]

Yes. Points taken. I was obviously being a bit too simplistic but I was hoping that most people would get the idea. We do see the insides of more TVs in a week than most people do in a lifetime and you would be surprised of the technical quality of a lot of your favourite and expensive sets.

Most manufacturers use others bit & pieces. Philips use all sorts of screens, mostly their own now they are in bed with LG. Rare to see a Sharp screen in one to be honest but I can guarantee that Philips firmware is regarded throughout the trade as the worst. Sony is not the best either to be honest, no matter what screen they use.

One thing I can guarantee though, is when your set goes wrong, (which it will a lot quicker than a tube set) you will want it repaired as cheaply as possible. If you were able to see a list of spares costs from the large manufacturers, you would be shocked. One example; Panasonic Plasma PSU £248. Identical unit used in a Hitachi £76

I was just hoping to get people to think about other things other than just their personnel preferences to what a good picture should look like and at what cost.

Never mind, lots of expensive crap to repair tomorrow.

[beatsdonstop]

Interesting read - thanks to all contributors. I'm currently looking to replace a 9 year old Panasonic 32inch 100Hz CRT (maybe old and bulky but still has a great picture, just want to upgrade to HD now). I've looked in a few stores and have only seen the Samsung LEDs on display so far. They have looked real nice though. Dunno if the shop was deliberately giving these the best feed, but appeared to have the superior picture quality, or do the LED backlit sets just look best under all the stores lighting? Trouble is, the best way to view the TVs properly will be in your own lounge, but who'll let you do that? Very few retailer have proper demo rooms for TVs (B&O do, but a bit above my price range). Anyway, after reading this thread I have no idea again which TV to buy...

[tvbox]

I suppose as they were the tvs under the spotlight, they would have plugged in a BR to make it look nicer than the poor old palsmas next to it which are showing a poor, snowy RF or component signal.

The blacks may be a bit bluer as you come home, as your house would be darker.
Samsung LEDs do have glare, so big windows or spotlights are a no-no.

I am dissapointed that there is only 1 scart. My plasma comes with 2, sometimes i need to swap them still as i need 4!!!

If you do have more scart equip, get a switcher.
I think if you have BR or HD then you will be ok as there are 2 or 3 HDMI sockets.

Oh and do samsung give you the dongle for widgets yet? I thought they were separate?

[wookielover]

Im not sure if anyone else finds this annoying, you go in to a "electrical" shop to look at the tvs, when you look at the demo of the freeview and HD comparision the freeview looks awful and the HD amazing. Its clearly running off a demo bluray disc but it does get my back up. My freeview pictures looks good on my 27" lcd. i went in to Currys the other day to browse and saw the LED tv's the ones on display had the best demo disc playing while all the other plasma and lcd had a cr£$py rf signal which wasnt tuned properly.

[Bibby_83]

It looks like the LED models are improving - the reviews have been quite encouraging in most respects other than viewing angle. I'm particularly interested in the Panasonic and Toshiba models with IPS panels. I was surprised at the number of LED models on sale this year and I think this might be the tipping point for the technology. Prices are higher but it might be worth considering energy consumption, particularly at larger sizes. The figures on the latest Sharp range are quite encouraging, despite the lack of dimming.

On picture - Apparently the black level of the Sony X4500 is 0.04 cd without dimming and at a brightness of around 200. The USP is zero light output but obviously this only happens when the LEDs are off, otherwise there will be fluctuations. OK, the newer Sharp, Samsung and Sony panels are around 0.05/0.1 to begin with but only at lower brightness settings ie. Cinema.

This US review claims the Samsung 8500 is around the same level as the 408/508 Pioneer Kuro Plasma (note this model is not available in Europe). Samsung 8500 series 55" Review

They have done a good job with the LED back lighting. There is a hint of ghost glow in high contrast black and white credits. But not as bad oas other displays. You could also probably notice it in real life material if looking for it.

Grey scale gives you several options depending on your balance of back light to contrast settings. One way you get a blue bump in the RGB balance. The other way the bump is reduced but your low end grey scale does not measure correctly but optically looks ok. Black level when properly calibrated was on par with an 8G Pioneer. Could not get it to go below that point with out sacrificing shadow detail.

APL can be an issue but to be honest I think it is becoming relatively minor, especially with localised dimming response. Yes they are still LCD TVs but what they heck, if it works I'm interested. They might be expensive at the moment but that will probably change.

[tvbox]

Apparently panasonic have been looking at making thinner LCD tvs, not just plasma (see this year's wireless Z1)

At some point in the video he says 'next year' (now) they are thinking about LCDs that use different shutters. - that slide, not like venitian blinds which is what many people describe lcd.

[Bibby_83]

Hi Box,

Apparently panasonic have been looking at making thinner LCD tvs, not just plasma (see this year's wireless Z1)

Yes, I think they are using edge LED on the new LCD TV range from what I read. Slimmer design but fewer LEDs so the benefits are less. Another surprise is that most of the manufacturers seem to be shifting to edgelit with local dimming control. Sony, Sharp and Toshiba have all confirmed LED edgelit sets, not sure if there will be some backlit options but there are certainly more to come.

[steveo 79]

Originally Posted by Bibby_83

Hi Box,


Yes, I think they are using edge LED on the new LCD TV range from what I read. Slimmer design but fewer LEDs so the benefits are less. Another surprise is that most of the manufacturers seem to be shifting to edgelit with local dimming control. Sony, Sharp and Toshiba have all confirmed LED edgelit sets, not sure if there will be some backlit options but there are certainly more to come.

Sony's new HX range looks like they'll be a local dimming backlit version, looks like a newer improved version of the X4500's?

New Sony LED TVs

Toshiba's cell tv looks set to use a impressive backlighting system as well, not sure about other models though?
Toshiba cell tv

[jimsan]

Originally Posted by Bibby_83

Hi Box,


Yes, I think they are using edge LED on the new LCD TV range from what I read. Slimmer design but fewer LEDs so the benefits are less. Another surprise is that most of the manufacturers seem to be shifting to edgelit with local dimming control. Sony, Sharp and Toshiba have all confirmed LED edgelit sets, not sure if there will be some backlit options but there are certainly more to come.

Eh? Technically that sounds impossible! Has to have an LED array behind the screen. Skinny, local dimming LCD's are a long way off yet....

Jimmy

[alpine101]

Are any of the LED LCD TVs currently on offer RGBLED? Or just WLED. There is a significant difference since the colour gamut of RGBLED backlights is much wider than White LED ones. I speak as a satisfied owner of a Dell Studio laptop with an RGBLED screen, which is really nice to look at!

[sammy20v]

Originally Posted by alpine101

Are any of the LED LCD TVs currently on offer RGBLED? Or just WLED. There is a significant difference since the colour gamut of RGBLED backlights is much wider than White LED ones. I speak as a satisfied owner of a Dell Studio laptop with an RGBLED screen, which is really nice to look at!

X4500 rgb LED, be quick though very few left

[alpine101]

Originally Posted by sammy20v

X4500 rgb LED, be quick though very few left

Thanks! Think I'll wait a bit until the price comes down! OTOH, the pound is probably due to collapse soon... Decisions, decisions...

[Bat-man]

Originally Posted by alpine101

Thanks! Think I'll wait a bit until the price comes down! OTOH, the pound is probably due to collapse soon... Decisions, decisions...

The price has already come down. As said earlier - very few left.

[Bibby_83]

Looks like the Toshiba SV series delivers -

Toshiba 46SV685D/46SV685DB/46SV685 Review: Regza SV 200Hz LED TV

I'd seen good reviews but some were not so detailed on the local dimming. This one claims no fluctuations in picture are noticeable or measured. I was wondering earlier if these models are worth the increased price ie. twice that of a regular Toshiba 46 inch LCD TV. Arguably that might be the case, and the power consumption is still very good.

With these new models fromm Sony, Samsung Philips, Sharp and now Toshiba we are surely seeing some of the potential of LED backlighting.


If the price goes below £2000 and more sizes become available (32/42) I can see many people looking at this.

[clemenzina]

I made this trip to AVF specifically to find out the qualitative difference between LCD and LED, and I'm so grateful to Stuart for the info and for making it "captivating"

I see that John Lewis have a separate section for "LED" TVs:

http://www.johnlewis.com/Electricals...tCategory.aspx

clemenzina

[MikeTV]

I've had my Samsung LED for a while now, and I admit that the results have been mixed. It excels in some respects, and disappoints in others, in ways that are difficult to quantify. Nevertheless, on the whole I am happy with my purchase (although I'd think carefully before buying Samsung again, for various reasons).

I think some of the criticisms of LED technology are not as significant to discerning viewers as some would like to suggest (plasma and LCD owners perhaps?) and somewhat subjective. On the other hand, LED technology is not without it's flaws, and has been over-hyped, and over-priced. Where it does seem to excel is in energy saving, and physical size (it's easy to carry a 46" LED into another room).

At the end of the day, it's simply an LCD, with LED backlighting. So if you like LCD's, you'll probably like LED's too. But they have different "qualities" which some will like more, and some will like less. It depends too much on individual preferences. In terms of picture quaility, there are trade-offs with both types, and indeed with different makes and models.

[Geoff_D]

I'm thinking of upgrading my current Sony LCD set because the backlight bleed REALLY ANNOYS ME, so the $64,000 question is: 'Do Edge/backlit LED sets suffer from backlight bleed?'. I'm liking the new Sony's, see...

These LED sets can have all the ****ing gadgets under the sun, but if there's still a chance of bleed then I may as well stick with what I have. Backlight trouble aside, my KDL46W5710 gives a magnificent picture.

Edit: Actually, am I right in thinking that it's the LCD panel that's causing the bleed, and so changing the backlight (CCFL, HCFL, Edge LED, back LED etc) won't make a damned bit of difference?

[Calibrator]

Originally Posted by Geoff_D

I'm thinking of upgrading my current Sony LCD set because the backlight bleed REALLY ANNOYS ME, so the $64,000 question is: 'Do Edge/backlit LED sets suffer from backlight bleed?'. I'm liking the new Sony's, see...

These LED sets can have all the ****ing gadgets under the sun, but if there's still a chance of bleed then I may as well stick with what I have. Backlight trouble aside, my KDL46W5710 gives a magnificent picture.

Edit: Actually, am I right in thinking that it's the LCD panel that's causing the bleed, and so changing the backlight (CCFL, HCFL, Edge LED, back LED etc) won't make a damned bit of difference?

You get the backlight bleed because the native contrast of an LCD panel is still poor compared to self-illuminating technology like plasma. They have made great advances in the last years but the best current LCD masks in TVs have a static contrast of several thousand to one - that's leagues lower than plasma panels.

So, to reduce backlight bleed on an LCD one has to get either an LCD with a better mask (possibly one of those U2VA-panels by Sharp - available in some 2010 Sharp & Sony models) or to reduce the backlight so that there is no/little light spill in the first place.

The only sets that more or less successfully do the latter are "LED-LCDs with local dimming" like for example the Sony X4500 series (46" and 55"), the Samsung A956 and A786, LG LH9000, Toshiba SV685 and some Philips 9-series. These are often way more expensive than similar TVs without local dimming but they usually display a better picture with more contrast, often approaching plasma panels.

The local dimming tech isn't perfect, though, because it has a downside, too: As there are only between 64 and 240 zones for the whole panel -depending on the model- there are some situations where backlight bleed can occur - called "halos" or "blooming".
This can be very noticeable on very dark (or black) backgrounds with bright objects that are smaller than a dimming zone. Imagine a dark sky with bright white stars: The immediate area around the stars becomes as grey as it would be with a set without local dimming. If the whole black screen (sky) is filled with stars the panel would look as poor as your current one if the stars are displayed with their normal brightness.

If you are really picky about getting a black screen when the image being displayed calls for it and you don't want compromises like local dimming that may exhibit other problems you can only buy a (good) plasma or wait for OLED to happen...

bye
Calibrator

[Geoff_D]

Gah. It's a minefield, alright. What to do, what to do. I've got a chance to offload my 46W5710, but I've got to do it in the next few days. I'm eyeing up the full LED 46HX903 - yet will the (possible) local dimming artefacts bring me just as much bovver as the 46W?

BTW, after being a big fan of plasma for years, I'm done with it as I'd like to be able to watch Sky Sports News for more than five minutes without getting image retention , and OLED might as well be pie in the sky at the moment.

[Calibrator]

Originally Posted by Geoff_D

Gah. It's a minefield, alright. What to do, what to do. I've got a chance to offload my 46W5710, but I've got to do it in the next few days. I'm eyeing up the full LED 46HX903 - yet will the (possible) local dimming artefacts bring me just as much bovver as the 46W?

I don't know if the new HX903 is better than the X4500 and by how much but it's scheduled for July if I remember correctly.
Only you can decide if selling your old set (for a good price) and waiting for the HX to arrive makes sense right now but in your shoes I would try to get a first-hand impression of a good local dimming display (in dark lighting conditions to better judge it) before selling the old set.

Some people find the dimming halos extremely annoying, others are annoyed as a matter of principle and prefer a uniformely dark greyish black instead.
Personally I think that local dimming is a good way to get better blacks on LCDs at least some of the time instead of none at all.

BTW, after being a big fan of plasma for years, I'm done with it as I'd like to be able to watch Sky Sports News for more than five minutes without getting image retention , and OLED might as well be pie in the sky at the moment.

If I were only watching movies in a darkened room (reflections on a panel are more annoying to me than a less than perfect black level) then I would have bought a plasma.

For my usage profile (Blu-ray, DVDs, game consoles in both HD and SD, HTPC and standard TV), room lighting (bright and dark) and visual preferences (I don't like plasma dither and phosphor lag) an LCD is simply the better choice, the better compromise right now.

To reduce (read as: "not quite able to eliminate") greyish blacks I bought a local dimming LCD and I would do the same again. As a matter of fact I have a hard time right now deciding on what new PC monitor I should buy as I'm spoiled by my TV...

Yes, local dimming isn't perfect, but a good interim solution until OLED or something similar is really ready (stable and cheap enough) for the market. Perhaps in five years...

bye
Calibrator

[Geoff_D]

Hmmm. I had regular access to the Sony X4500 at work, but I'd never heard of the 'dimming halo' issue so I never gave it a second glance. I'll have to scrutinise the new local dimming sets from Sony when they come out, but as you say it's gonna be a while...