[wl1]

Following the excellent Dummies Guide to Calibration, and using the HCFR software and Eye One, I have managed to spend many hours of fun playing with the settings.....

I have a PS3 on HDMI input 4, and use the the DVE disc for initial Contrast/Brightness settings with the Pluge pattern, and then AVCHD disc for calibrating the 10-100% grayscale settings.

My results were great, with Gamma tracking 2.22 across the range, with Delta errors of less than 3 (10-100%) for the grayscale.

Even the 6500K chart was flat.

I then tried to calibrate the primaries and secondary's. This showed large Delta Errors in the Green primary (and magenta secondary).

The resultant change in the CMS settings to bring this in (Green towards yellow ~21!). I did this with changes for Magenta too.

On re-checking my greyscale, they were (expectedly) way off. In bringing this back in, I ended up with very "large" RHigh (+ve) and RLow )-ve) figures, and greater delta errors (with 0-20% being particular bad). Gamma tracking was also worse.

My questions are:
Should I leave my inaccurate Colour Calibration alone, and be happy with nr perfect grayscale?
Sacrifice Grayscale extremes for more accurate colour saturation?
I believe the PS3 input is going to be setup nicely for films, but the same settings for SKYHD, particularly for Sport, resulted in horrible colours, and luminous green grass (Colour Space 2 was better).

Also, I intended on allocating an input to a Pioneer Mode, (MOVIE=PS3, Standard = SKYHD box, USER = DVD), but can you answer if
these modes are all configurable this way, as with the same settings in each mode, the PS3 picture varied by mode.

Also, how do I calibrate SKYHD HDMI input1; Should I repeat above from PS3 but on HDMI input 1, or use an HD Test Card (if I can find one!)

I would have posted a few images, but not worked out to include them (yet).

Any help would be much appreciated,

Wayne

[Greyscale]

My questions are:
Should I leave my inaccurate Colour Calibration alone, and be happy with nr perfect grayscale?
Sacrifice Grayscale extremes for more accurate colour saturation?

If engaging the colour management system ruins your greyscale achievements, then it would be advisable to leave these controls in their default positions.

Also, I intended on allocating an input to a Pioneer Mode, (MOVIE=PS3, Standard = SKYHD box, USER = DVD), but can you answer if
these modes are all configurable this way, as with the same settings in each mode, the PS3 picture varied by mode.

The different picture modes do have individual characteristics, so inputting the same numbers into each will result in a different image.
With your display, Movie and Standard are configured for global use, whereas User is available on a by-input basis.

[D65]

Hi,

Leave the primaries at default(0) and adjust secundaries to achieve color accuracy. Adjusting primaries will mess up the grayscale. because the grayscale is made up of red, green and blue.

Dimitri

[wl1]

Here are the shots from Grayscale calibration only - look good to me. Apart from green and magenta being off.

[wl1]

And here are the shots with 1 more iteration of the calibration, adjusting the CMS for green primary (22 to yellow) and magenta (4 to red).

The resulted in +12 on RHigh, and -21 on RLow.

[D65]

Adjust secundaries only.

Perfect measured results don't always look better, this is very true in case of primary color adjustment. Leave them well alone on a pioneer.


Dimitri

[wl1]

Originally Posted by Greyscale

The different picture modes do have individual characteristics, so inputting the same numbers into each will result in a different image.
With your display, Movie and Standard are configured for global use, whereas User is available on a by-input basis.

If I ensure all settings of Standard and Movie mode are identical, will they still have different characteristics? What causes this?

From the last bit, I guess I should calibrate in User Mode for each unput - right?

I appreciate the time - I will run calibration again, and only adjust for secondaries. Thanks for your help.

[Piers]

Inputting the same settings into the movie and user modes doesn't get identical results. Exactly why is a bit of a mystery but it seems that there are underlying non-adjustable parameters that are different on these two modes.

User mode gets you per input memories but movie mode is arguably easier to calibrate well. It may be worth using movie mode for the most important input then calibrating user modes for the other sources.

[D65]

I'd choose movie over user any day of the week.

There are clear differences when comparing both(calibrated), while measured results are practicly the same.

trie and see for yourself.

Dimitri

[Gordon @ Convergent AV]

wl1: You have discovered what ISF calibrators have long known. The Pioneers CMS is as much use as a chocolate teapot. Adjusting the primaries or secondaries creates catastrophic non-linearities in the greyscale. Subtle use of the secondary hue adjustments can be beneficial though. When faced with this defect in their system, that has been non functional for several years, you'd think that Pioneer would attempt to fix it...instead their solution was to put in a multi-point rgb gamma in the ISF C3 interface to try to fix the thing they broke with their CMS...and of course that multi-point gamma doesn't actually work very well either.....

So the solution is, as you've worked out...leave the CMS alone and only use it sparingly to fix secondaries.

The other thing this brings up is that it is obvious that many folk who do calibrations for themselves do not understand what the targets are for primary and secondaries. Getting accurate x, y on the CIE chart is NOT the idea. You can get x and y bang on and in the process make the visible image MUCH worse and less accurate.

Dmitri says that perfect measured results don't always look better. Well, they should if you are measuring the correct thing. The problem here is that wl1 isn't and I think that is the point he (Dimitri) was trying to make. That chart with the primary and secondary colours on it is not telling you the info you need in order to calibrate them accurately

Gordon

[D65]

Gordon,

When you say "use secondary adjustment sparingly", what exactly do you look for when adjusting, if not the right coordinate(position) on the CIE?.


Thanks,

Dimitri

[Gordon @ Convergent AV]

You need to know what the x,y,z of each point should be and the CIE chart doesn't tell you the "z" bit and its REALLY important. You need to use the correct mathematical analysis to work out what the delta error is for the primary and secondaries taking in to consideration the target "z"....... Also, if your primaries are not correct then to map colour properly in to your "real" colourspace you need to have secondaries in diffent locations.

Over use of the secondary hue adjustment in Pioneers will also lead to non linearities in the greyscale......

[wl1]

Gordon: I do recall reading your previous post on the importance of "x,y,z", but I guess I got carried away with targetting in x,y. I know you are right about this, because when I was adjusting for Cyan errors, readings moved about but would never cross over the exact point, i.e. the adjustment was probably moving in arc in x,y,z.

Which bit of Mathematics do I need to apply?

Your comments also re-inforce the guide settings from Bumptious (ref only Magenta -7 adjusted in CMS). Is this anything to do with getting the Green to magenta dotted line passing through the D65 point? And what about z?

Should I conclude from my first set of graphs, that the 10% delta error is the only thing I can work on?

[Greyscale]

Which bit of Mathematics do I need to apply?

Your comments also re-inforce the guide settings from Bumptious (ref only Magenta -7 adjusted in CMS). Is this anything to do with getting the Green to magenta dotted line passing through the D65 point? And what about z?

The z axis relates to colour brightness (the third dimension), which isn't depicted on either version of the CIE chart.

A fully-functional CMS needs control over hue, saturation and brightness. Pioneer plasmas only have the six that adjust hue. Without the additional controls, you may well increase dE (delta error) and end up with a higher level of inaccuracy than when you began the adjustments.

[Iain Gibson]

Originally Posted by Gordon @ Convergent AV

You need to know what the x,y,z of each point should be and the CIE chart doesn't tell you the "z" bit and its REALLY important. You need to use the correct mathematical analysis to work out what the delta error is for the primary and secondaries taking in to consideration the target "z"....... Also, if your primaries are not correct then to map colour properly in to your "real" colourspace you need to have secondaries in diffent locations.

Over use of the secondary hue adjustment in Pioneers will also lead to non linearities in the greyscale......

I wouldn't recommend trying to do the maths yourself, but your calibration software should be able to do it
As Gordon says, if you have inaccurate primaries that you're stuck with, ideally your software should let you input a "custom colour target" based on the actual primaries you've got. It will use these to create new target values for the secondaries which will differ from the usual PAL/HDTV ones.
I have a feeling HCFR can't do this though...
Cheers,
Iain

[wl1]

I have managed to find a piece of software which may be what you refer to, called Display Calibration Calculator. This should compliment the excellent HCFR.
I hope to complete the calibration for setting greyscale on movie mode for my PS3 this weekend, and will use the above to make small changes to secondaries. Hopefully this will get me as near as a DIYer can get.

Does anybody have any advice on
"how do I calibrate SKYHD HDMI input1; Should I repeat above from PS3 but on HDMI input 1, or use an HD Test Card (if I can find one!)"
from my earlieir post?

I have seen the BBC Test Card on HD Preview channel, but I understand it contains inaccuracies in 100%whhtie and Blacks (for some reason). What is the best way forward?

[Greyscale]

Does anybody have any advice on
"how do I calibrate SKYHD HDMI input1; Should I repeat above from PS3 but on HDMI input 1, or use an HD Test Card (if I can find one!)"
from my earlieir post?

You have two choices (other than the test card idea):

1) Use the global Movie mode you have calibrated for the PS3 and make minor adjustments when you watch Sky.
2) Recalibrate for the SKY input by selecting one of the other picture modes, using the PS3 as your signal generator.

[wl1]

I tried to use PS3 as a signal generator, with a different mode (both Standard and User), and found both useless at giving a constant gamma. I then decided to use Movie mode and I now have 2 lots of settings for Input 1 (SkyHD) and Input 4 (PS3).

A bit inconvenient switching bewtween the two but I ma going to see how it goes.

PS3
7/3/09 - MOVIE mode input 4 -
Contrast 40
Brightness -11
Colour -2
Tint -1

RH0
GH0
BH+4
RL-1
GL0
BL+1

SKY HD Input 1
7/3/09 - movies mode input 1 - from PS3 into INPUT 1!!!
Contrast 34
Brightness +1
Colour -2
Tint -1

RH-1
GH0
BH+4
RL0
GL0
BL0

I think I am done - thanks to everyone who helped me out.

Wayne