[dragonfly]

I have Martin Logan Speakers and I have been looking for decent power cords for a long time until i stumbled across high end home theater power cables in America,(VK custom made cables)the power cords arrived today the price including vat is much more cheaper that the ones i was looking at in the uk.
Here is the picture of what they look like.

[Peridot]

dragonfly,

Won't you have problems plugging them in to your mains socket outlets

________________
Dermot

[loz]

A new kettle lead from your local hardware store is even cheaper, and no one will be able to tell the difference
Blind test of cheap/pricey Power Cables

[dragonfly]

Peridot,
I know what you mean but this is not the first time i,ve bought electronics from the USA.Maplin sell plugs to take care of that.

[loz]

I am sure there is a flaw in the logic of buying a very expensive power chord and then plugging it into a very cheap adaptor

[Nick_UK]

Originally Posted by loz

I am sure there is a flaw in the logic of buying a very expensive power chord and then plugging it into a very cheap adaptor

I think there is a flaw in the logic of buying expensive power chord, period.

[Mr Yakimoto]

Originally Posted by Nick_UK

I think there is a flaw in the logic of buying expensive power chord, period.

Try it, you might like it.

Certainly worked in my system........................but not through an adaptor.

[dragonfly]

Yakimoto,
How did you plug it in your system without an adaptor?
Thanks.

... like this one at http://venhaus1.com/vhuk.jpg - circa £15...

Or possibly try here

DIY Mains Cables

Whatever - enjoy the cable.

Paul.

[Nick_UK]

Originally Posted by Mr Yakimoto

Try it, you might like it.

Certainly worked in my system........................but not through an adaptor.

My system sounds OK to me without overpriced power cables. What about the other 2 miles of cable between the 13A socket and the sub-station ? Are you going to buy expensive cables to replace that, too ?

[Knightshade]

Have to say here there's no mention of filtering. So all you're doing by adding a good quality power cord is making it easier for the 'Dirty' mains signal to get through.
Apart from the fact it looks like a good cable (Have to say i'm very impressed with the v-caps) A lot will depend on your equipment. I would love to say yes it's really worth it but I just can't......

Originally Posted by Nick_UK

My system sounds OK to me without overpriced power cables. What about the other 2 miles of cable between the 13A socket and the sub-station ? Are you going to buy expensive cables to replace that, too ?

Before I respond to the above statement I must first declare that I manufacture aftermarket power cords so I have an interest in the reply I give, although not necessarily for my own products.

No need to replace those cables from the sub station at all they are perfectly adequate. Fitting a better quality power cord isn't letting "dirty mains" through better either, so that is also a complete fallacy. Essentially speaking, the incoming mains supply to your house is very "clean" with little or no noise, so the overwhelming majority of the rubbish on the supply often complained about actually originates in your own home.

So why then do some folks notice an 'improvement' in sound and vision quality from fitting a better quality mains cord? Those that say they have tried fitting another mains cord to their system and noted no 'difference' were IMHO using the wrong type of cord so that's why they had no discernable results. Those that did notice a 'difference' were not entirely convinced the 'difference' was a positive one and if it was, what order of magnitude was it?

To the best of my knowledge none of these aftermarket mains cords are fitted with active filtration components, the values of LCR within the cable itself acting as passive filters are so small as to be negligible, yet the sound quality 'improves'. Some cables will indeed make the sound 'different' rather than 'better' and the majority of aftermarket mains cords will indeed add compression and dynamic limitations to the sound.

Clicks, pops, whirrs, whistles and birdie noises all originate from appliances within the home, so the best way of dealing with those problems is to track them down to their source and cure the problem there, rather than spend out money for 'mains cleaners'.

So how do these 'sooper dooper' cables work? In one word - by design. A well designed aftermarket power cord will enhance the sound/vision of your system by ADDING NO NOISE ARTIFACTS OF IT'S OWN, because that silly little length of cheap and nasty "kettle cord" is actually the real source of the noise!!!!

[loz]

So how come in properly conducted blind test no one can tell any difference between a kettle lead and expensive aftermarket leads?

Were they using the "wrong type of cord"?
Snake oil salesmen always have a get out clause

[Nick_UK]

Originally Posted by Effem

So how do these 'sooper dooper' cables work? In one word - by design. A well designed aftermarket power cord will enhance the sound/vision of your system by ADDING NO NOISE ARTIFACTS OF IT'S OWN, because that silly little length of cheap and nasty "kettle cord" is actually the real source of the noise!!!!

So, what you're saying is that the 2 miles (or so) of copper cable going from the electricity sub-station to your house isn't really a problem, but the 2 metres of copper wire connecting your amp or TV is really pumping out the noise. How odd - I didn't know that there were different sorts of copper wire ?

Please advise, what sort of lubricant would you recommend for your "low noise" cables ? Would snake oil be any good ?

[Knightshade]

I have to ask this and it's something i've always wondered about, if these things are so brilliant why, when you visit the likes of LINN or CHORD for a demo of there high end gear, do they not show them using super power cables and expensive power cleaners?
I'm afraid I can't buy into the hype. Some good quality power cleaner and ordinary power cables are all you need.

Originally Posted by loz

So how come in properly conducted blind test no one can tell any difference between a kettle lead and expensive aftermarket leads?

There never has been such a test to the best of my knowledge because it wasn't properly conducted in the first place, nor was the cord itself a shining example of a good aftermarket cable design being used, so how have you come to the conclusion that every single mains cable on the market has no worth? If you are referring to the much publicised Nordost Valhalla debacle then that was one lead on it's own and not truly representative of ALL aftermarket mains cords. "Expensive" yes the Valhalla is, but I did also say better by design, not necessarily expensive and not necessarily made by Nordost either.

Were they using the "wrong type of cord"?

Evidently if it's true that no difference was heard between the Nordost Valhalla and a "kettle cord" in a blind test, then that may also suggest it was the "wrong" cord being used for the test, so another cord submitted by a different manufacturer may have passed the blind test with no difficulties. Kindly do not tar all aftermarket power cords with the same brush, until you can qualify your statements.

It's not a get out clause at all because if another cable was being used other than the Valhalla then it would I'm sure have been a different outcome in a blind listening test. I've conducted several properly conducted blind listening ABX tests and the differences between the cords were plainly evident to the listening panel.

[Nick_UK]

Originally Posted by Effem

So how do these 'sooper dooper' cables work? In one word - by design. A well designed aftermarket power cord will enhance the sound/vision of your system by ADDING NO NOISE ARTIFACTS OF IT'S OWN, because that silly little length of cheap and nasty "kettle cord" is actually the real source of the noise!!!!

I'm still rather confused over why your cable claims to introduce "no noise artifacts" whilst you assert that a 2m length of copper wire will ? All wire at room temperature will generate noise - the critical factor being that the noise generated will be measured in microvolts, and won't make any difference whatsoever to the incoming power !

[loz]

Originally Posted by Effem

I've conducted several properly conducted blind listening ABX tests and the differences between the cords were plainly evident to the listening panel.

Please show me published results.
Otherwise it is as unproveable as your claims.

Originally Posted by Nick_UK

I'm still rather confused over why your cable claims to introduce "no noise artifacts" whilst you assert that a 2m length of copper wire will ? All wire at room temperature will generate noise - the critical factor being that the noise generated will be measured in microvolts, and won't make any difference whatsoever to the incoming power !

Wire alone does indeed generate some noise. I'm talking about the construction of 2 or 3 core mains flex cord, which also has wire noise, made from appallingly poor copper, thin conductors, thin insulation, very close proximity of the conductors and running in parallel paths for too long a distance. What does that in effect create? The answer is blindingly simple!

Originally Posted by loz

Please show me published results.
Otherwise it is as unproveable as your claims.

The blind listening tests were conducted for my own benefit and nobody else's. In the near future I will be conducting more blind properly controlled ABX tests and will make the results public for all to see.

Equally, your claims that there is no difference between a sooper dooper aftermarket mains cord and a standard "kettle lead" are unfounded. If the much publicised Nordost Valhalla blind test was conducted properly from the start, then the best you could claim was that there was no difference between a Nordost Valhalla cord and an ordinary kettle cord. I somewhat resent you saying that ALL aftermarket cables perform in that way and lament even more your use of the term "Snake Oil Salesmen" because there are power cables out there that perform very well indeed. You are very welcome to your opinions and I respect that stance but speak only from your own first hand experience and not a populist bandwagon please.

[Peridot]

Originally Posted by Effem

What does that in effect create? The answer is blindingly simple!

Could you please explain further as I don't understand what these effects would be?

____________________
Dermot

[loz]

Originally Posted by Effem

The blind listening tests were conducted for my own benefit and nobody else's.

OK, so we have established they were not valid tests

Originally Posted by Effem

In the near future I will be conducting more blind properly controlled ABX tests and will make the results public for all to see.

Unless they are conducted in public with a random audience that doesn't consist of your family and friends or people you choose to invite, then publishing them still won't prove anything

Originally Posted by Knightshade

I have to ask this and it's something i've always wondered about, if these things are so brilliant why, when you visit the likes of LINN or CHORD for a demo of there high end gear, do they not show them using super power cables and expensive power cleaners?
I'm afraid I can't buy into the hype. Some good quality power cleaner and ordinary power cables are all you need.

If you had visited the Bristol Hi-Fi Show recently then you would have found that 95% of the systems there were running on sooper dooper power cords - Linn and Chord included (I would have been surprised if the latter didn't). I made the observation that I could easily pick out the systems by sound alone that DIDN'T have sooper dooper mains leads before I went and peeked round the back of the system being played. The clues to me are the loose woolly bass and indistinct raggy top end detail, which more often than not was heard from outside the room where the demo was taking place. Sure enough and without fail all the systems I believed to be poorly cabled up proved to be so when I went and looked behind them. Do I have exceptional hearing? I don't think so.

[loz]

and yet all those systems were running of the same internal hotel wiring? But that had no influence? Just adding a couple of feet of your magic wire miraculously fixes everything the hundred meters of crap it had to traverse to get there?

[Nick_UK]

Originally Posted by Effem

Wire alone does indeed generate some noise. I'm talking about the construction of 2 or 3 core mains flex cord, which also has wire noise, made from appallingly poor copper, thin conductors, thin insulation, very close proximity of the conductors and running in parallel paths for too long a distance. What does that in effect create? The answer is blindingly simple!

Yes, it is blindingly simple.... no effect whatsoever ! Effem, when you start to talk in technical terms and not in riddles, then I'll start to take you seriously. Until then, I'll just put you into the snake oil salesman category. How can I tell that you are one ? The clues to me are wooly thinking and a distinct lack of technical detail

[Peridot]

Originally Posted by Effem

which more often than not was heard from outside the room where the demo was taking place.

methinks Effem has just found the best forum for a good wind-up

The distinct lack of pseudo-science means he fails the snake-oil-salesman entrance exam.

________________
Dermot

Originally Posted by loz

and yet all those systems were running of the same internal hotel wiring? But that had no influence? Just adding a couple of feet of your magic wire miraculously fixes everything the hundred meters of crap it had to traverse to get there?

If the mains had so much crap on it, then the sooper dooper mains cords would have absolutely ZERO effect, because no mains cord ever can "clean up dirty mains". I wish folks would read all that I write, not just parts of it.

I never once have mentioned my own cables BTW

[Knightshade]

Originally Posted by Effem

If you had visited the Bristol Hi-Fi Show recently then you would have found that 95% of the systems there were running on sooper dooper power cords - Linn and Chord included (I would have been surprised if the latter didn't). I made the observation that I could easily pick out the systems by sound alone that DIDN'T have sooper dooper mains leads before I went and peeked round the back of the system being played. The clues to me are the loose woolly bass and indistinct raggy top end detail, which more often than not was heard from outside the room where the demo was taking place. Sure enough and without fail all the systems I believed to be poorly cabled up proved to be so when I went and looked behind them. Do I have exceptional hearing? I don't think so.

Effem, with all due respect I don't believe the Bristol Hi Fi show is the place to listen critically to a system.
LINN's listening rooms however are. When I speak to a rather prominent member of LINN's design team about power cords and their effect. He simply shakes his head and tells me 'Believe if you want to'
Why haven't manufacturers got together with cable producers and agreed to supply all kit with aftermarket power cords? On 4k CD players a few hundred for a high quality power cable could be easily swallowed somewhere in the price.
So why don't they......? Is it because it's really not necessary?
Prove to me that these things aren't there purely to look pretty and i'll buy them.

[Peridot]

Originally Posted by Peridot

methinks Effem has just found the best forum for a good wind-up

The distinct lack of pseudo-science means he fails the snake-oil-salesman entrance exam.

________________
Dermot

I'm wrong

I've just looked as his profile, and homepage.

It appears he is not looking to sell 'good' cables at grossly inflated prices - he's selingl cr*p cables at smaller grossly inflated prices.

An interesting experiment this. Are the gullible so gullible as to buy equipment likely to degrade their equipment and still believe that they can hear an improvement.

Let us know how you get on Effem. I just home Trading Standards don't come looking for copies of those 'testimonials' [font=&quot]

________________
Dermot
[/font]

[Jeff]

Originally Posted by loz

So how come in properly conducted blind test no one can tell any difference between a kettle lead and expensive aftermarket leads?

Most blind tests have 1 major flaw, by the time you swap cables your brain has already forgotten most of what you have just heared. Audio memory is very poor, 5 seconds is about the maximum you can rely on.