[Vipers @ Zinc-HT]

Hi Guys, I've just posted this in the Arcam forum as I was using Arcams excellent CD37 to compare the stock power cable against Mark Grants upgraded cable, thought my findings may be of interest to others in this thread :-

Just had a really interesting afternoon playing around with power cables which has answered a question that have been bugging me for a while. Do upgraded power cables really make a difference?

I sat my wife down for some blind testing, as it turned out in the last Blu Ray shootout that she had quite an astute ear for differences in audio, and I didn't tell her what we were listening to, I just wanted to know if she could hear any difference atall. We used Gerry Raffety's 'Baker Street' and The Eagles 'Hotel California', After as quickly as possible changing over the power cords between Mark Grants upgraded cable and the stock cable my wife straight away said that she could hear a big difference with one player, she actually thought I was asking her to compare the CD37 and the A1UD, and she was shocked that the improvement she was hearing was just down to changing over to Mark's cable.

So then I took my turn, showed my wife how to fly the kit and sat back and listened, everytime I picked the upgraded cable, before today I was the biggest sceptic, I just couldn't see how changing a 1m cable to could make any difference when you're still drawing the same power with all its interference problems throughout the house. But I can genuinly say that I am now a believer there was a definate extra clarity and defination to the instruments with voices comming across clearer aswell, everything just had a livlier sound to it. For the cost of one of these cable at about £40 it is a no brainer upgrade, what I'm wondering now is if you go higher up the price chain to you get bigger improvements or will it be a case of diminishing returns again.

So all in all it was a very interesting afternoon, I know there will be many people who don't believe in the whole power cord upgrade, I was one, but at least I know now for myself that both me and my wife could hear a noticable difference to make it worthwhile upgrade. One thing I read the other day though was that the differences are more noticable with the source, ie cd players, than with amplification, maybe thats a test for another day
__________________

[deaf cat]

It's interesting stuff, I've three after market power cords, all put a different slant on the sound repro - very interested as to know why and how.

I noticed the largest difference when used on my power amp, but I would guess the quality and design of a component would dictate the amount of difference heard.

I've also read, and it makes sence to me, to have the best one or the one you like best on the source.

[GYRODEC1]

Hi Viper,

I have changed all my mains power cables from the cheapo ones that came with the units to high grade ones as you can see in my signature and the SQ improvement is fantastic.

It's worth every penny. But do yourself and your wallet a favour and try and get them on ebay.

P.S I really enjoyed reading your review on the Arcam FMJ CD37.

I am also thinking of buying one myself in the near future.

[Vipers @ Zinc-HT]

Originally Posted by GYRODEC1

Hi Viper,

I have changed all my mains power cables from the cheapo ones that came with the units to high grade ones as you can see in my signature and the SQ improvement is fantastic.

It's worth every penny. But do yourself and your wallet a favour and try and get them on ebay.

P.S I really enjoyed reading your review on the Arcam FMJ CD37.

I am also thinking of buying one myself in the near future.

Thanks for the tip GYRODEC1, if you don't mind me asking, what power cables do you use? as I've been looking at different options and some power cables go upto astronomical prices. I was so impressed with Mark Grants power cable, I'm now wondering if I go for a more expensive cable will I get an even greater improvement, or maybe at £40 a go I should just stay with what I know works.

As for the CD37 I know you won't be dissapointed, I've never actually sat down and listened to so much music

[GYRODEC1]

Hi Vipers,

One of the sales assistants at my local Sevenoaks hifi shop thinks the Arcam FMJ CD37 may be a bit smooth sounding when matched with my MF amps and spks.

Do you think the Arcam CD37 is a bit smooth sounding?

Thanks

[aliEnRIK]

Good post

Im also impressed that a self confessed 'sceptic' changed their mind after actually trying it

I too was a big sceptic until I tried an Isotek Elite on my (then) arcam A85. the difference was staggering so since then I experimented a lot more and found that braided cables make the biggest difference (The more wires the better the result)

This last couple of years ive swopped ALL my cables for some 16 core braided cables off ebay and the difference to my hifi and av system (Which is all connected in some way or other) has REALLY made me glad I decided to try that Isotek years ago

I also use an isotek Sigmas that everythings connected through

[William YZF-R1]

Given the current price of electricity I really don't want to filter anything out - I want my full money's worth.

I'll stick to my supplied mains cables.

[Vipers @ Zinc-HT]

Originally Posted by GYRODEC1

Hi Vipers,

One of the sales assistants at my local Sevenoaks hifi shop thinks the Arcam FMJ CD37 may be a bit smooth sounding when matched with my MF amps and spks.

Do you think the Arcam CD37 is a bit smooth sounding?

Thanks

I guess it depends how you catagorise the word smooth , I've spent quite along while comparing the CD37 to the Denon A1UD hoping that my Denon would save me a few penny's and become my cd player of choice and as good as the A1UD is at producing a very nice detailed sound I found the soundstage to be very forward but the CD37 really adds width to the sound and seems to throw way past the speakers, I also found that it adds a punch to the sound that the Denon lacked, I'm being very picky here but I think it shows the calibre of the CD37 as the A1UD has been given very high praise for its CD playback, if anything I found the A1UD to be smooth and laid back and the CD37 to add a little kick and punch, so in the end I had to buy a CD37 aswell

Again, I think it will be a matter of auditioning the CD37 with your setup if possible, but make sure you use those upgraded power cables

[Vipers @ Zinc-HT]

Originally Posted by aliEnRIK

Good post

Im also impressed that a self confessed 'sceptic' changed their mind after actually trying it

I too was a big sceptic until I tried an Isotek Elite on my (then) arcam A85. the difference was staggering so since then I experimented a lot more and found that braided cables make the biggest difference (The more wires the better the result)

This last couple of years ive swopped ALL my cables for some 16 core braided cables off ebay and the difference to my hifi and av system (Which is all connected in some way or other) has REALLY made me glad I decided to try that Isotek years ago

I also use an isotek Sigmas that everythings connected through

Thanks for the info, now I'm a believer its a matter of how much I want to spend, it looks like it can be a bit of a bottomless pit so any advice is more than welcome

[aliEnRIK]

Originally Posted by vipers

Thanks for the info, now I'm a believer its a matter of how much I want to spend, it looks like it can be a bit of a bottomless pit so any advice is more than welcome

The place ive bought mine from are called TM3 CONNECTIONS off ebay
I have copper braided cables all round except my amps which are solid silver (And far more expensive)
Heres one of the silver ones ~
Silver 16-core mains lead - Coher+ AGP16 - solid cores on eBay (end time 12-Nov-09 09:34:31 GMT)

Unfortunately they havnt advertised their copper braided ones in quite a while but if you were to send an email they would probably make anything you want (I bought mine in bulk for a knock off)
Generally speaking the copper ones were approx 55 quid and they made me a 3m one for 96 (ish, abd bear in mind this was a year ago or so now)
The Russ Andrew 1m equivalents (Which is pretty much where the braided mains idea came from originally) are over 250 quid now

Braided cables not only combat airbourne EMI but also Mains bourne RFI. The more braids the better the effect as more cables 'cross over' over a given length

Just so your aware the effect of 'burning in' is also highly present. The silver ones in particular take months before they settle (Silver sounds AWFUL to start with, bass in particular is very light)
My amp really sounded cr*p to start with, but now its an absolute joy to listen to

Once I replaced the one to my tv I genuinely couldnt tell any difference. But 2 weeks later the difference was obvious and it looks even better now.
My PS3 in particular REALLY thrived on one, the sound jumped from 'average' to 'awesome'. The 'steering' of sound effects in particular was so much better, as was the general sound quality.
Generally speaking my system 'sounds' so much better. Everything sounds so much more 'real', and movies have incredible bass weight (Even though I dont use a sub)
Pictures through my Pioneer tv look incredible too
Money 'well' spent in my opinion

Others Ive tried ~
Russ Andrews Classic (8 core copper) ~ best of the known brands
Isotek Elite ~ good bass weight on amps
Black Widow ~ good for cd players, bad for amps
Various other ebay ones with varying results

I can say for a fact the TM3 ones blew them all away
If you want the ABSOLUTE best you could go for the 24 core Russ Andrews ones, but they are very expensive

[Vipers @ Zinc-HT]

Thanks aliEnRiK, I really appreciate the above post, it will save me making the mistakes I always seem to make, ie buying kit twice as I always seem to find something better

I've just got to sort my new speakers out then I'll get in touch with TM3.

In your experience what is the most important part that benefits the most from the upgraded power cables? As I read somewhere that you get better results at the source ie cd player than at amplification but you seem to have spent the most at the amp stage.

Thanks.

[aliEnRIK]

Originally Posted by vipers

Thanks aliEnRiK, I really appreciate the above post, it will save me making the mistakes I always seem to make, ie buying kit twice as I always seem to find something better

I've just got to sort my new speakers out then I'll get in touch with TM3.

In your experience what is the most important part that benefits the most from the upgraded power cables? As I read somewhere that you get better results at the source ie cd player than at amplification but you seem to have spent the most at the amp stage.

Thanks.

Well I agree that the sources are very important. The reason I went the way I did is because all my cables are basically the same (16 core braided). The only difference being wether its copper or silver. So the EMI and RFI cancellation would (Should) be the same on both cables. Electricity moves quicker through silver (How much depends on the properties of the silver mind)
I put silver onto my amps as amps seem to thrive on silver cables whilst I felt it would be wasted on the sources (And the price would have rocketed through the roof)
That said, if money was no object id probably have solid silver throughout

[Vipers @ Zinc-HT]

I've just been browsing TM3's ebay shop, I'm spending virtual money by the second

I think I'll start with the 16 core silver for the amp and cd player and go from there, I never really thought of changing the power leads for my screen and projector but with what you are saying it sounds like there are gains to be made everywhere, very interesting.

[aliEnRIK]

I only have a 7th Gen Pioneer 42"

My dad has the A500 which is still considered the best tv in the world today

I can say for a fact that connecting better mains cords made a difference. And connecting through an Isotek Mira (Mains conditioner) made a difference

The picture quality on his tv is absolutely jaw dropping! (Im not jealous...oh no )

[Vipers @ Zinc-HT]

Yo're not wrong, the KRP's are stunning screens, I've got the 600A and the picture still blows me away, if changing the power cable can improve it even further then it has to be done. I guess I can buy a couple to start with and try them on different bits of kit to see what benefits the most.

[aliEnRIK]

Originally Posted by vipers

Yo're not wrong, the KRP's are stunning screens, I've got the 600A and the picture still blows me away, if changing the power cable can improve it even further then it has to be done. I guess I can buy a couple to start with and try them on different bits of kit to see what benefits the most.

Just be aware that silver might NOT be a good idea for the screen
Id personally buy a copper braided cable if I were you (Silver might create the infamous Pioneer 'panel buzz' effect)

Also be aware that even in 'run in' cables it can take a week or two for the effects to become apparant (Like the equipments 'acclimitising' to them if you will)

[MarkTaylor]

Originally Posted by aliEnRIK

Also be aware that even in 'run in' cables it can take a week or two for the effects to become apparant (Like the equipments 'acclimitising' to them if you will)

Just for balance, also consider that your own perception will change over time and changes in perception are more likely to occur than physical changes in your equipment.

[aliEnRIK]

Originally Posted by MarkTaylor

Just for balance, also consider that your own perception will change over time and changes in perception are more likely to occur than physical changes in your equipment.

Agreed. But im also aware that its not going to change to such a point that what sounded absolutely AWFUL now sounds beautiful (Aka, using silver mains cables)
And my eyesight is as good as one day to the next (So what I perceive to change IS changing)

If your a sceptic then so be it. I was once.........

[MarkTaylor]

Originally Posted by aliEnRIK

If your a sceptic then so be it. I was once.........

As I often repeat here, what you see and hear from your own equipment is the only thing that matters when you are spending your own money.

Others reading threads like this, contemplating spending large amounts of money on power cables, do need to consider that there are other elements that can affect what is seen and heard, that is all.

When you claim that your equipment is somehow 'acclimatising' to the new cables this drifts a bit too far away from what is at least theoretically possible with our equipment.

If you are happy then great, others should always make sure they have the ability to return cables that they buy if they do not perceive a difference.

If the supplier is claiming that an extended burn-in period is required then they should also be willing to accept the cables back after their preferred burn-in period even if that exceeds what is allowed under the DSA, but get them to confirm this before purchase.

Just for the record, yes I have tried alternative power cables and no I did not perceive a noticeable difference, but then I do already take care to keep power cables away from my interconnects and each other and my mains supply is pretty clean as well.

[aliEnRIK]

Originally Posted by MarkTaylor

and my mains supply is pretty clean as well.

Thats where we differ. Mine isnt very good.
I certainly agree with the 'try before you buy' part

If someones lucky enough to have very little 'mains noise' or EMI floating about then its unlikely any mains cable will make a difference

Id hazard a guess 'most' homes arent perfect for hifi though

[Vipers @ Zinc-HT]

Originally Posted by aliEnRIK

Just be aware that silver might NOT be a good idea for the screen
Id personally buy a copper braided cable if I were you (Silver might create the infamous Pioneer 'panel buzz' effect)

Also be aware that even in 'run in' cables it can take a week or two for the effects to become apparant (Like the equipments 'acclimitising' to them if you will)

I knew this would end up getting complicated

So for the CD37, AVR600 and A1UD would silver be the better option but for the screen go with copper?

[pwood]

Welcome over to the dark side FWIW I compared my Russ Andrews Yellow cables with their Kimber Classic and there was a slight improvement but not a massive jump as it was with the Yellow from standard. Mark Grant ones will likely be all you need to spend.

I think diminishing returns really is apparent with mains cables. The longer the better with the twisted types. I have a 4 way yellow set up with 2m cable feeding my 1m lead to the cdplayer and when compared with direct to the socket for the 1m lead the longer length improved things.

[aliEnRIK]

Originally Posted by vipers

I knew this would end up getting complicated

So for the CD37, AVR600 and A1UD would silver be the better option but for the screen go with copper?

I dont see any problem with using the silver with those

[IWC Dopplel]

I'll let you know how I get on with my new mains install :

35mm squared 180 amp mans cable from the incomer via a new 100amp a separate line from the meter direct. As separate as you can get from the rest of the house.

A 13 way commercial distribution unit (Far more robust connections and beafier higher rated buzz bar, and capable of terminating the 2" thick 35mm squared cable) in the Cinema room, 13 way 32amp high quality MCB's, then all cables to each AV unit equal length and on a separate spur. All mains cable to units 6mm square 40amp cable with Oyaide non plated IEC connectors (very high quality connections that will take over 7kg of force to disconnect )

Separate earth spurs and no cable less than 6mm square in the whole line.

Having read up on this the three clear advantages of better mains supplies are:

Better isolation from other units
Lower impedence
Better earthing

From what I have read significantly reducing the impedence makes big differences. Oh and before the 'experts' pipe in about current draws and mans needs, do remember that a lot of upgrades for amplifiers and preamplifiers are about better power supplies. A very interesting old article made the point about how much the signal to noise ratio was reduced by a small amount of earth loop current, the sort of current often found in situ

Should be finished buy the end of next week I'll let you know how I get on

[Welwynnick]

I'm glad that people are taking power cables seriously. Usually when you stick you're head up over this particular parapet, it gets shot off pretty quickly by the see-no-evil, speak-no-eveil and especially hear-no-evil sceptics.

I did a mains cable test some years ago and was shocked by the difference. I'm doing a lot of playing around with transformers, cables and conenctors at the moment, and still working things out.

Great stuff, Nick

[white91]

If anyone is swapping cables around and wants to sell their old ones please let me know

[Mr Yakimoto]

Originally Posted by aliEnRIK

Good post

Im also impressed that a self confessed 'sceptic' changed their mind after actually trying it

I too was a big sceptic until I tried an Isotek Elite on my (then) arcam A85. the difference was staggering so since then I experimented a lot more and found that braided cables make the biggest difference (The more wires the better the result)

This last couple of years ive swopped ALL my cables for some 16 core braided cables off ebay and the difference to my hifi and av system (Which is all connected in some way or other) has REALLY made me glad I decided to try that Isotek years ago

I also use an isotek Sigmas that everythings connected through

Im another that uses the Sigmas......I also have upgraded all my powerchords (about 8 in total) to Isotek Supreme!!!!!!

[Halo_master]

After a half a year i noticed a panel buzz on my krp600m. There was a little noise before, but it has gotten worse lately.
I would like to get a mains conditioner for the panel, but would like to get an upgraded power cable first. Which one would you recommend for a pioneer krp600M. I have been looking at an Atlas eos MK2 for around 150 gbps, (that is the top of my budget). Is there anyone that can recommend me power cable for my pio krp600m at around 150 gbp' s?

[aliEnRIK]

Originally Posted by Halo_master

After a half a year i noticed a panel buzz on my krp600m. There was a little noise before, but it has gotten worse lately.
I would like to get a mains conditioner for the panel, but would like to get an upgraded power cable first. Which one would you recommend for a pioneer krp600M. I have been looking at an Atlas eos MK2 for around 150 gbps, (that is the top of my budget). Is there anyone that can recommend me power cable for my pio krp600m at around 150 gbp' s?

If its purely to combat the 'buzz' I dont think any will help, in fact id guess theyd make it worse

[Halo_master]

Hi,

No can get a device/filter to reduce the buzzing, but would like to get a better picture using a better power cable.