[Stephen Neal]

Just installed Catalyst 8.11 and drivers for my 780G motherboard.

It now has a Pixel Format option that allows you to select between :

4:2:2 YCrCb
4:4:4 YCrCb
4:4:4 RGB Studio levels (Limited)

4:4:4 RGB Full levels

It defaulted to 4:4:4 RGB Full levels - which on a standard TV will look black crushed and have clipped whites, but on selecting 4:4:4 RGB Studio levels you get proper video levels (the same as a DVD player or Blu-ray will output), and things are consistent across HD-DVD, Blu-ray, Windows, DVDs and Vista Media Center.

No registry hacking required as far as I can see.

At last drivers that will work with both TVs (studio levels) and Monitors correctly (full levels) - particularly useful if you have an AV Amp feeding your TV with multiple HDMI sources. (Previously the drivers were a mish-mash, giving grey blacks and dull whites on SD MPEG2 stuff inside Vista Media Center, but with HD-DVD and Blu-ray being fine)

Another bonus is that the driver doesn't force 4:2:2 YCrCb any more - which I think it did - so you don't get colour-bleed in Windows if you use a 4:4:4 mode.

[GlynG60]

That sounds very good - I will get on and give it a go

[thepharcyde]

Cheers for the heads up, but I do not seem to have this issue.

[Stephen Neal]

Originally Posted by thepharcyde

Cheers for the heads up, but I do not seem to have this issue.

It will depend how you run your PC and what display you have AIUI. Lots of users have had issues with earlier versions of Catalyst incorrectly handling black and white levels on MPEG2 SD (and possibly HD) video - whether this is a result of the EVR or MPEG2 codec that is integrated into Vista and the interaction with Catalyst I'm not clear.

The upshot appeared to be that the earlier versions of Catalyst appeared to do the following when connected to some TVs (my experience is with Full 1080 Sony Bravia 40W2000 and 40W4000 models):

The old version output YCrCb 4:2:2 with STUDIO/VIDEO levels (16-235/16-240), which is what a TV (but not a PC monitor) would expect, and is the same output standard used by DVD players, set top boxes and Blu-ray players (and in studios).

HD Blu-ray and HDTV decoding and display was fine - with blacks and whites in the right place AND Windows desktop was fine as well (no black crush or white clip)

HOWEVER - for some reason MPEG2 (DVDs and Freeview SD/Freesat SD stuff) appeared to be decoded with the video level offsets incorrectly applied twice - or retained (as if Windows/Catalyst wasn't already compensating for video black and white levels across the board). This resulted in SD MPEG2 video having grey blacks, and dull whites (as if it were being displayed on a monitor configured for PC 0-255 levels), but H264 and the desktop not...

It now appears to have been fixed so it is consistent across all input video source formats AND you can manually select the output format used by HDMI (as you can also on the PlayStation 3 incidentally) from 4:2:2 YCrCb and 4:4:4 YCrCb, RGB Limited/Studio/Video or RGB Full/PC. I'm running 4:4:4 RGB Limited/Studio/Video - as I'm not sure how YCrCb is handled with 601 SD and 709 HD when the output is permanently HD (is there a SD 601 YCrCb to RGB and then RGB to HD 709 YCrCb stage somewhere to make sure SD and HD colour space is properly handled?)

Previously - under older versions of Catalyst - you had to use a registry hack to get video levels (sometimes called 601 levels after CCIR/ITU Rec. 601 which defined them in the 80s) handled correctly for MPEG2 stuff (or maybe it was just the SD de-interlacing aspect in Catalyst that caused the issue ?)

[GlynG60]

It certainly makes a noticeable difference on my Pioneer plasma with SD video - well worth updating the drivers to 8.11

[karoloydi]

Cool! Does this mean that with the new drivers I can calibrate my tv just like a normal tv? Just put the calibration dvd into my media player and continue as normal?
Has anyone tested if different players alter the colors at all? Particularly powerdvd and coreavc codec with windows media player?

[Stephen Neal]

Originally Posted by karoloydi

Cool! Does this mean that with the new drivers I can calibrate my tv just like a normal tv? Just put the calibration dvd into my media player and continue as normal?
Has anyone tested if different players alter the colors at all? Particularly powerdvd and coreavc codec with windows media player?

Yes - though you need to ensure your "Pixel Format" settings are correct for the type of display you have.

TVs connected via HDMI should be YCrCb or RGB Studio/Limited usually - as these levels are output via other HDMI sources. PC monitors should be RGB Full / PC Levels.

[karoloydi]

What if I use a tv both to use as a pc monitor and for watching movies through my pc?
Cant I have it calibrated for both? Do I have to choose one of them? And if yes, which one do you suggest I choose?

[Stephen Neal]

Originally Posted by karoloydi

What if I use a tv both to use as a pc monitor and for watching movies through my pc?

Cant I have it calibrated for both? Do I have to choose one of them? And if yes, which one do you suggest I choose?

Don't worry - if you are using HDMI to connect to a standard HD TV then select either RGB Limited or YCrCb (4:4:4 probably better as you avoid chroma bleed that is inherent with 4:2:2 - where the colour is half resolution horizontally)

This shold ensure that all your applications have the right black and white levels - both for windows applications and video. The driver now consistently maps black and white and the greyscales in between to the right levels that a TV is expecting. So once you have set your black levels (brightness) and white level (contrast) on your TV for your PC input you shouldn't have to touch it whatever you are doing (source quality not withstanding)

Before 8.11 it didn't work consistently on all set-ups (and need a registry hack) - and you could have inconsistent levels between applications.

(If you are using a standard DVI PC monitor, and not a TV, then you should use RGB 4:4:4 Full levels, otherwise your blacks will be grey and your whites dim, even if you are watching video content)

There are two issues that confuse - the fact that the video levels on DVDs, Blu-ray, broadcast MPEG2 TV etc. are 16-235(16-240 for CrCb) not 0-255 AND that if you are outputting video for a TV you should also be using 16-235 (16-240 for CrCb) - so there are TWO places where it can go wrong with video...

Catalyst now lets you properly select the output format (0-255 RGB Full for PC Monitors, 16-235 RGB Limited or YCrCb for TVs) AND appears to have got rid of the poor input processing for SD video that may have been something to do with the EVR or ATI video handling.

[kmark40]

would this be why i have been unable to achieve blacker than black using the hd dve disc, but have been successful using the sd version?

[karoloydi]

Originally Posted by Stephen Neal

Don't worry - if you are using HDMI to connect to a standard HD TV then select either RGB Limited or YCrCb (4:4:4 probably better as you avoid chroma bleed that is inherent with 4:2:2 - where the colour is half resolution horizontally)

This shold ensure that all your applications have the right black and white levels - both for windows applications and video. The driver now consistently maps black and white and the greyscales in between to the right levels that a TV is expecting. So once you have set your black levels (brightness) and white level (contrast) on your TV for your PC input you shouldn't have to touch it whatever you are doing (source quality not withstanding)

Before 8.11 it didn't work consistently on all set-ups (and need a registry hack) - and you could have inconsistent levels between applications.

(If you are using a standard DVI PC monitor, and not a TV, then you should use RGB 4:4:4 Full levels, otherwise your blacks will be grey and your whites dim, even if you are watching video content)

There are two issues that confuse - the fact that the video levels on DVDs, Blu-ray, broadcast MPEG2 TV etc. are 16-235(16-240 for CrCb) not 0-255 AND that if you are outputting video for a TV you should also be using 16-235 (16-240 for CrCb) - so there are TWO places where it can go wrong with video...

Catalyst now lets you properly select the output format (0-255 RGB Full for PC Monitors, 16-235 RGB Limited or YCrCb for TVs) AND appears to have got rid of the poor input processing for SD video that may have been something to do with the EVR or ATI video handling.

I am using a dvi to hdmi cable to connect to a samsung LE40A656 hdtv. Do I select either RGB Limited or YCrCb?

[Stephen Neal]

Originally Posted by karoloydi

I am using a dvi to hdmi cable to connect to a samsung LE40A656 hdtv. Do I select either RGB Limited or YCrCb?

I would try 4:4:4 RGB Limited in the first instance.

[Stephen Neal]

Originally Posted by kmark40

would this be why i have been unable to achieve blacker than black using the hd dve disc, but have been successful using the sd version?

Hmm - possible. You may have been getting BTB by getting very sat-up blacks though.

Presumably the BTB requirement is there for PLUGE purposes - so you can see BTB as you calibrate your display, so that you can see what you don't want to see (stuff below black during calibration). i.e. if you can't see BTB you can't properly set black level as easily (by making the BTB just disappear) If you permanently see BTB then you are presumably watching a sat-up picture?

You certainly shouldn't see BTB and WTW then you use RGB Full - as this will map 16-235 to 0-255, clipping any picture information below 16 and above 235 in the process. You might now see it if you use RGB Limited or YCrCb - it depends how Windows/ATI treat things in between (they may internally map 16->235 to 0->255 and then map 0->255 back to 16->235 which will also clip BTB and WTW potentially - though keep black and white at the right levels)

[mark0326]

I installed 8.11 but can't find these settings you talk about - can someone point me in the right direction

[thepharcyde]

Originally Posted by mark0326

I installed 8.11 but can't find these settings you talk about - can someone point me in the right direction

You may have already found it by now but just in case

in CCC in Advanced mode
open the DTV(HDMI)1
Select Pixel Format.

The settings are in there

Good luck, just testing now as per Stephens recommendations

[Stephen Neal]

Yep - different set-ups may benefit from different settings. Also - check both SD DVD and Blu-ray replay - my previous set-up had wildly different black levels between them, but now they are consistent.

4:2:2 also has chroma bleed (which can be an issue if you use your HTPC for stuff other than watching video - which is 4:2:2 anyway)

[mark0326]

Originally Posted by thepharcyde

You may have already found it by now but just in case

in CCC in Advanced mode
open the DTV(HDMI)1
Select Pixel Format.

The settings are in there

Good luck, just testing now as per Stephens recommendations

Ah, I see now I have 'DTV (DVI) 3' listed and so this setting isn't available to me - my ASUS EAH3650 has twin DVI connectors which require a DVD to HDMI adaptor. Have I got this configured correctly?

[kmark40]

mine says DTV HDMI 4. cant find the option either

[Locutus266]

I have connected my AMD 780G board to my LCD-TV via HDMI and for me it has only gotten worse with 8.11. When I updated from Catalyst 8.9 to 8.11 I not only had wrong luma levels in videos but also on the desktop.

In the "Pixel Formats" tab in the CCC it says "Full RGB 4:4:4" which is obviosly wrong. Changing it to Studio RGB or YUV 4:2:2 will correct luma levels for the Windows desktop. Unfortunately the selection is not saved. After a reboot, the Pixel Format is back at Full RGB. :-(

Black levels in videos is a whole different story by the way. As of Catalyst 8.11 I don't recognize any changes there. Still got grey blacks and oversaturated colors with renderers (except Overlay and Haali Renderer).

locutus

[Rizob]

Originally Posted by Locutus266

I have connected my AMD 780G board to my LCD-TV via HDMI and for me it has only gotten worse with 8.11. When I updated from Catalyst 8.9 to 8.11 I not only had wrong luma levels in videos but also on the desktop.

In the "Pixel Formats" tab in the CCC it says "Full RGB 4:4:4" which is obviosly wrong. Changing it to Studio RGB or YUV 4:2:2 will correct luma levels for the Windows desktop. Unfortunately the selection is not saved. After a reboot, the Pixel Format is back at Full RGB. :-(

Black levels in videos is a whole different story by the way. As of Catalyst 8.11 I don't recognize any changes there. Still got grey blacks and oversaturated colors with renderers (except Overlay and Haali Renderer).

locutus

I'm getting the same problem with mine. I set it to RGB Limited and it goes back to RGB Full after a reboot or after running certain apps.

[m4rky]

I will download this tonight and try them out.

But first what setting is optimal???

I am confused. I would have though Full RGB was best then you get a full set of colours??

[Biffa001]

when you set it to full you get washed out blacks and too bright whites. Well I do anyway!

[Locutus266]

Originally Posted by m4rky

But first what setting is optimal???

Well, technically Full RGB will give you the best colour resolution, but it's no use if your TV/monitor doesn't support it. If you select a setting that is not supported, you are very likely to lose colour information (dark black 0-16 and bright white 235-255). My guess is, that usually TVs use video levels and PC monitors use PC levels.

@Rizob: Thanks for confirming my observation. Seems to be a bug, then...

I have attached a small test pattern which makes it easier to recognize wrong black levels. Field 10 will be black if something's wrong. It might be a good idea to increase brightness/gamma for testing purposes. Maybe someone can use it...

As for me, I've reverted to Catalyst 8.9, so I got at least right levels on the Windows desktop. Videos are a totally different story, as I already said.

So long,
locutus

[Rizob]

Originally Posted by Locutus266

@Rizob: Thanks for confirming my observation. Seems to be a bug, then...

Strangely it even reverts back to Full RGB if i just switch to a different input on my tv and then back to the one i'm using for my pc! I'm using a Bravia 46X2000 by the way.

I'm sure ATI will fix this but i hope it doesn't mean waiting a whole month for 8.12. I would just revert back to an old one but 8.11 is the only one that's allowing me to play Fallout 3 for longer than 20 mins without it crashing.

[Seeco]

Rizob: I have the same problem, my CCC also reverts back to "full RGB" whenever I turn the TV off and then on again. I also get no difference in tonality from switching between limited and full RGB, and my card seemsto always put out full RGB (0-255). As I'm using my ATI card in my HTPC this is really annoying.

Another weird thing: Stephen Neal wrote that as of 8.11 all types of material (HD and SD) are expanded to the 0-255, and that you therefore don't need the reghack for this anymore. For me this isn't true though, TV for example still showed grey blacks with 8.11 and I had to apply the regtweak again for it to become as it should.

[Rizob]

Originally Posted by Seeco

Rizob: I have the same problem, my CCC also reverts back to "full RGB" whenever I turn the TV off and then on again. I also get no difference in tonality from switching between limited and full RGB, and my card seemsto always put out full RGB (0-255). As I'm using my ATI card in my HTPC this is really annoying.

Another weird thing: Stephen Neal wrote that as of 8.11 all types of material (HD and SD) are expanded to the 0-255, and that you therefore don't need the reghack for this anymore. For me this isn't true though, TV for example still showed grey blacks with 8.11 and I had to apply the regtweak again for it to become as it should.

I can definitely notice a difference on the desktop between the two RGB settings on my tv. I'm using this as my wallpaper right now-

When i set the CCC to Full RGB the red colour becomes over saturated. It might be worth a try to see if you notice anything.

[Stephen Neal]

Originally Posted by Seeco

Rizob: I have the same problem, my CCC also reverts back to "full RGB" whenever I turn the TV off and then on again. I also get no difference in tonality from switching between limited and full RGB, and my card seemsto always put out full RGB (0-255). As I'm using my ATI card in my HTPC this is really annoying.

I'm pretty certain mine retained its settings on shutdown. I'll have another look. I may have saved the settings under my three 1080p Profiles though - and I recall those profiles on every reboot usually (depending upon what activity I am undertaking)

Another weird thing: Stephen Neal wrote that as of 8.11 all types of material (HD and SD) are expanded to the 0-255, and that you therefore don't need the reghack for this anymore.

I may have been a bit ambiguous because I'm not clear how Catalyst, Vista EVR and the MPEG2 decoders interact.

My reading of the old situation was :

PC outputting 16-235 Video levels to my TV.

Windows black and white levels, and Blu-ray black and white levels (themselves based on 16-235 source colour space) correctly displayed.

MPEG2 SD DVD and Live/Recorded TV incorrectly displayed (and only with the registry hack were they displayed correctly).

In the new situation I was suggesting that TWO things had changed.

1. MPEG2 SD levels were now being handled consistently and in the same way as Windows and Blu-ray stuff, so internally black and white levels were consistent across all SOURCE material.

2. The video output standard could now be selected rather than chosen automatically - so if you needed RGB Full (for a PC 0-255 monitor) or RGB Limited (for a 16-235 TV or broadcast monitor) you could select which was the right standard for your OUTPUT requirements.

Whether Windows internally treats everything as 0-255 levels, and thus remaps 16-235 sources (or didn't in the case of SD MPEG2 under older drivers) to 0-255 for consistency, and then the video drivers separately re-map 0-255 back to 16-235 if configured for RGB Limited or YCrCb OR the output standard causes the inputs to be scaled prior to frame store (so 16-235 sources are left as IS and Windows remaps 0-255 stuff to 16-235) I don't know.

My gut feeling is that it has to be the former - as you could end up with dual outputs, DVI (0-255) and HDMI (16-235) from two different output ports and if you cloned the desktop to both, or dragged stuff between them, the former would make a lot more sense?

The confusion is that you can have both 0-255 and 16-235 SOURCES and need to display both correctly on either a 0-255 or 16-235 DISPLAY. Something has to be remapped somewhere - it is just a question of where in the chain and which way!

For me this isn't true though, TV for example still showed grey blacks with 8.11 and I had to apply the regtweak again for it to become as it should.

Hmm - for me RGB Full defaulted and I got crushed blacks and clipped whites. On setting RGB Limited everything appeared to be right - the same situation as the registry hack (though with full chroma 4:4:4 bandwith - not the 4:2:2 YCrCb I previously appeared to have - with coloured fine text bleeding)

I'm not near my HTPC for a couple of days now - so can't fiddle. Very annoying.

[kmark40]

Originally Posted by kmark40

mine says DTV HDMI 4. cant find the option either

sorry guys, back onto me again. would the above be because i didn't install the 8.11 driver? i have been avoiding the drivers because i have a 4800 series card and have had to apply the realtek ati hdmi driver for multichannel audio. do i need the 8.11 driver to reap these new benefits?

[Seeco]

Kmark40: I have the HD4870 and I didn't have to re-install the Realtek driver after installing 8.11 over 8.10, if that's what you're worried about. HDMI sound just kept on working for me.

Stephen Neal: Aha, then I think that might be due to using the EVR renderer. I have heard that EVR is better at controlling black levels.

Rizob: I'll download that picture to my HTPC and see if I can tell a difference between the two modes, but I doubt it. I know what it usually looks like to switch between 16-235 and 0-255, and right now nothing seems to happen when I go back and forth between them.

[Biffa001]

Hmm - for me RGB Full defaulted and I got crushed blacks and clipped whites. On setting RGB Limited everything appeared to be right - the same situation as the registry hack (though with full chroma 4:4:4 bandwith - not the 4:2:2 YCrCb I previously appeared to have - with coloured fine text bleeding)

This is certainly the case for me. I had just posted in this and the AVS forum about the problems with setting up my system correctly with the HD-DVD DVE disc as the settings for the desktop, video and TV, BRD and HD-DVD were all different....and then theres the LCD settings too.......arghhhh.

But I installed this driver, set all my CCC settings back to the default, selected the Limited RGB option and just adjusted brightness/contrast etc with my TV and now the desktop/TV/BRD etc all look great.

Also I noticed the difference with colours being much more lifelike. I only needed to tweak the hue control in the CCC a tad to get it all a ok using DVE colour filters