[Phil Hinton]

When you attend a show like CES you want to witness a real revolution in product design and performance. However such feats are very rare and happen maybe once every ten years, when someone actually changes the way a product works in a revolutionary way.

I have to say that the only company at this years CES show to actually change the way we think about a product, was Pioneer. Their project Kuro screens from 2007 where successful in this regard as they lowered the black performance in a significant way to improve a technology many had given up on. As the market heads towards LCD being the dominant screen of choice for the masses, Kuro added a performance level and reason for those who wanted the best picture quality from Plasma, and Pioneer positioned themselves as a high end brand.

2007 was a very successful year for Pioneer plasma screens and it would have been very easy for the company to milk that success with these models for a couple of years, however what they have released and shown at CES has moved the goal posts in a totally immeasurable way.

The 9mm thick concept screen

Yes there is the 9mm screen and it looks nice and will no doubt add to the appeal of Pioneers branding, but this concept screen was not the product to change the market for good. There was one screen that was hidden away from the showfloor and required a long queue to see, it was clouded in darkness and for me it has changed the way we should think about plasma technology for good.

We have heard many times now that neither LCD or plasma (or front projection for that matter) will ever be able to reach true black levels. The technologies used for these screens make it impossible for a true black to be achieved. Why is black important? Well black is what gives a good picture it’s depth of field, its colour accuracy and its contrast. If you produce a good black level such as Pioneers Generation 8 screens, it makes that TV look far better than the competing brands and technologies and you get one of the best pictures on the market. But other companies have been quick to try and match Pioneers steps in the plasma market and LCD is improving all the time in this regard. However you should, if common perception is to be believed, never get any of these displays to give you a complete black, with no emissive light at all from the panel phosphors.

Pioneer GB Product Manager Jim Catcheside

When Pioneer’s UK product manager Jim Catcheside said to me that the company had reached the holy grail of plasma technology, I immediately thought back to last years Rome launch of Generation 8 when the same words were used. I wasn’t really expecting much from this concept other then a slight improvement of the black level again, but nothing revolutionary. Indeed every display company on the planet tells us that their black levels for the latest models are the best yet, and although Pioneer really did make a huge jump with G8, to be truthful to Jim I really had my doubts about a revolution in black levels.

So after waiting outside the display booth for about 10 minutes I entered the demo along with Jim and members of the international press. In front of us was a closed curtain and two Generation 8 panels on either side of this, wall mounted. When the lights dimmed and the curtain was opened it revealed another plasma screen behind and all three where showing a 0 IRE (true black) image. However with the lights down you could see the rectangle screen outlines of all the three panels as they emitted light from the phosphors in the panel. This is called the ready state, where the screen is on standby to produce an image. The video started and featured the godfather of plasma technology Yoichi Sato as well as members of his engineering team. They explained how they wanted to completely redefine plasma technology and produce the holy grail of ultimate black. The other boast of this video was a contrast ratio that was immeasurable. Strong talk indeed and on the evidence I had seen so far I couldn’t see any improvement in black performance, after all I could see the screens when they had displayed the 0 IRE image before the video started. As the video image faded to black again, I have to say I was feeling a little cheated and that’s when everything changed.

Contrast Concept. Please note that this picture does no justice to what it looks like in the flesh.

There hadn’t been just three panels in the pitch black demo room, but four. As a silver ring started to tumble towards us from the centre of the screens, out of the darkness was a fourth ring that appeared to be hanging in mid air! You want to know what I said at that point. Well it’s not printable – sorry. The demo material featured roses on dark water, a spaceship of some manner and other objects, all of them floating in the blackness of the room, no light was coming from the panel in the dark areas, and you couldn’t see its outline, unlike the G8 panels around it. Pleased with what we were seeing, Jim said to me, “Measure that!” We even had movie material from the latest ‘Pirates’ film which again showed just what the black level brings to accurate and three dimensional images. The shadow detail was immense and detail poured from the screen, it was stunning.

This is what I meant by revolutionary products. This one demo excited me to the point that I wanted to see it again and again. Pioneer were not pulling any legs here or for that matter using the PR spin machine to hype a small increase in black level. They had just shown us the future of plasma TV and this time they have cracked it! Maybe it was the wait and the fact that only 20 people or so could enter each demo at anyone time that has been the reason for the 9mm panel to get all the attention? Plus it was outside on the front of the stage, but those who did take the time to see the real concept contrast screen of the show, will have left as I did, their jaws firmly on the ground.

Now the sad part. Don’t expect to see this revolutionary black level in the next year or so, if not longer. Like a car show where Manufacturers show off a design concept car, this screen is much the same. The technology is real, but from what I was told there is only the one multi million pound example at this point. However what is coming to market in the next few months is Generation 9 and we managed to get a sneak peek at that too.

Special Edition G8 screen

Taking place well away from the LVCC was a demonstration of Pioneers new line up as well as a special edition 508 screen. This special edition G8 screen will be available at the end of the month and comes with a white surrounding bezel. Designed for the Mac enthusiast who wants a 50” screen, the white surround has the capability to let the image look cleaner and darker – all an optical illusion of course, but if you like the Mac white style, this would be the screen for you.

Demo line up, G9 in the middle

Moving on to the new Generation 9 screens and our first demo was one of Pioneers favourites. Lined up on the wall were screens from the competition, as well as a G8 panel and the new panel hidden behind a board. We saw the same demo sequence that had played during the concept demo and after one pass looking at the other screens, we then witnessed the new panel and it really did have improved blacks again over the G8. Where the G8 had maybe been an 80% improvement over G7, the new panel was the same again over the G8. Indeed much of the expertise that had developed the contrast concept has made its way into this panel, just not to the extent of total black. We were given a number of demos with varying material and I am happy to report that the next screens from the company really do move the Project Kuro brand on to the next level.

G9 home theatre demo.

So was the Pioneer Contrast Concept the highlight of the show for me? Yes it was and it’s probably the most important break though in plasma technology ever witnessed. If they manage to bring this technology to a screen that measures 9mm and offers true blacks like I saw here this week, then who will buy OLED as the next display technology, given that plasma will be just as good and a lot cheaper! Well done Pioneer!

You can listen to an interview with Jim Catcheside in the Home Cinema Podcast Here

Pioneer Promotional Videos.
[youtube]btXiltnvuu0[/youtube]
[youtube]t0KMh4VaPFg[/youtube]

Videos are the copyright of Pioneer and used for illustration purposes only

[Phil Hinton]

More Pioneer products shown at CES;

Second Generation BD player for the US.

Susano

Closer look at the Concept 9mm

G8 vs G9 demo

Pioneer ICE

[JeffD]

Are there any further impressions you can give us on how the 9G Kuro compared to the 8G Kuro.

[Phil Hinton]

Originally Posted by JeffD

Are there any further impressions you can give us on how the 9G Kuro compared to the 8G Kuro.

Like I said in the article the best way I can describe it is like the jump from G7 to G8, you could say its the same jump again to G9. There is an obvious improvement to the contrast of the G9 which was very noticable in the head to head and blacks were very much improved without crushing. I noticed shadow detail was also improved with the shot in the pictures above where the waves move on the water, there was more detail to be seen. Other than the above it's very difficult to subjectively explain without having some measures to show what it is I was seeing. I will say it is an obvious improvement and one which not only trained eyes will see.

[dannydj]

Originally Posted by Phil Hinton

Like I said in the article the best way I can describe it is like the jump from G7 to G8, you could say its the same jump again to G9.

thanks phil - quality article.....im slowly turning into a pioneer fanboy!! i am on the verge on buying a lx508/608 this month but after reading this i might wait for g9. i know a lot was made of the 9mm screen and project contrast kuro but hadnt read anything about the g9, infact expecting pioneer to release it slowly into the market as it wasnt going to be much of a step up from the g8. But you say this is not the case. I bought my 507 last feb and before i knew it the g8 was released......so this time i may wait. was there anymore information on the g9 ...release dates, models, if the full hd panel will be released at a later date like they did with the g8s this year. any info would be welcome and hopefully make me wait for the next gen from pio - although i doubt i would be disappointed with the 508lx.

[williamtassone]

Originally Posted by Phil Hinton;6213359


Now the sad part. Don’t expect to see this revolutionary black level in the next year or so, if not longer. ......However what is coming to market in the next few months is Generation 9 and we managed to get a sneak peek at that too.from the company really do move the Project Kuro brand on to the next level.



You can listen to an interview with Jim Catcheside in the Home Cinema Podcast [url="http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=684263"

Here[/url]

great write up!

so the 9mm panel is a few years off but the the gen 9 "chunkier" panel will still have zero idle luminance and ship end of 2008? Is that how it goes?

[Phil Hinton]

Originally Posted by williamtassone

great write up!

so the 9mm panel is a few years off but the the gen 9 "chunkier" panel will still have zero idle luminance and ship end of 2008? Is that how it goes?

No the Gen 9 will not have zero idle luminance, it is however a quantative step up on the Gen 8 screens.

[madshi]

Thanks Phil, great article! And you're the first one giving us some real information about G9.

Some questions, if you don't mind:

(1) Do you know if G9 is thinner than G8 or weighs less?
(2) How about power consumption and max brightness?
(3) Do you have a rough estimate for when 60" G9 will ship?
(4) Any plans for bigger screens than 60"?

Thanks much!

[Googlefan]

Originally Posted by madshi

Thanks Phil, great article! And you're the first one giving us some real information about G9.

Some questions, if you don't mind:

(1) Do you know if G9 is thinner than G8 or weighs less?
(2) How about power consumption and max brightness?
(3) Do you have a rough estimate for when 60" G9 will ship?
(4) Any plans for bigger screens than 60"?

Thanks much!

I would also appreciate a few comments on brightness levels of G9!

Thanks Phil for the best feedback on Pio at CES I found on the web!

[JeffD]

Agreed, best info on Pioneer at CES on the web by far and the only mention I've seen anywhere of the 9G's. Thanks a lot Phil.

[Canti1982]

Im assuming the G9 demo was on a 50" screen, I guess there is no info on a 42".

Im debating if its best to wait for the G9 42" if it even exists or buy a G8 now and just be happy with that. I know if I get the G8 it will be great but it will bug me if they announce the G9 shortly afterwards.

[boe]

I saw the show but didn't get any details on release dates. Can you please clarify on what you expect to see released when by Pioneer? I saw the prototype at the previous CES show and they released it about 9 months later - not saying the release schedule is the same just commenting on a previous release.

Also I spoke with a rep about them offering larger Kuros and he said they got a lot of requests for those and he wouldn't be surprised to see a larger model released in the near future. Did you happen to discuss larger screens with Pioneer?

[Phil Hinton]

Guys,

I did see some mock ups of the new screens in a side room, these were non working items. The thickness is down on the G8 but I cannot recall the actual measurement. It certainly looks quite a bit thinner but not as extreme as the concept model. I am trying to recall if there was a 42" mock up.

I didn't see anything bigger than 60" at the demo and I cannot give you any idea on power consumption. I did see a test pattern on both the G8 and G9 and the contrast is certainly visibly improved on the G9 (remember Pioneer do not give contrast figures anymore).

There will be a press and dealer event sometime in May where the company will announce what new products it is bringing to the UK and Europe, expect to get that information directly from us then.

This was a bit of a sneak peek for us at the AV Forums getting to see the G9 and the mock ups and thanks to Pioneer for that chance to see them. If you want a plasma you cannot go wrong with the G8 as it is available now and is in my eyes one of the best panels out there. Don't expect any further news on the G9 panels until May at the very least and release dates could be a few months after that.

[Googlefan]

Originally Posted by Phil Hinton

Guys,

I did see some mock ups of the new screens in a side room, these were non working items. The thickness is down on the G8 but I cannot recall the actual measurement. It certainly looks quite a bit thinner but not as extreme as the concept model. I am trying to recall if there was a 42" mock up.

I didn't see anything bigger than 60" at the demo and I cannot give you any idea on power consumption. I did see a test pattern on both the G8 and G9 and the contrast is certainly visibly improved on the G9 (remember Pioneer do not give contrast figures anymore).

There will be a press and dealer event sometime in May where the company will announce what new products it is bringing to the UK and Europe, expect to get that information directly from us then.

This was a bit of a sneak peek for us at the AV Forums getting to see the G9 and the mock ups and thanks to Pioneer for that chance to see them. If you want a plasma you cannot go wrong with the G8 as it is available now and is in my eyes one of the best panels out there. Don't expect any further news on the G9 panels until May at the very least and release dates could be a few months after that.

Amazing that they won't give contrast ratios anymore. If it continues like that, soon we'll get just the screen's dimensions and weight and that's it!

[-Ad-]

Originally Posted by Googlefan

Amazing that they won't give contrast ratios anymore. If it continues like that, soon we'll get just the screen's dimensions and weight and that's it!

I doubt they will give us weight, it might give an inaccurate description of the extra health and safety measures needed to be taken before even touching the screen, let alone touching it

Well Ive moved out of the panasonic threads and ventured into a pioneer one. I took my PS3 into JL today along with motorstorm, stealth, and starship troopers blu ray. Granted the pana PZ70 looked very good, but after trying them out on the 4280XD the panasonics blacks seemed almost grey, i kid you not. Definately going to have to fork out on the 4280XD, plus it is over 10kg lighter than the pana PZ, and more compact too.

Il stay well away from the new pioneer information, just buy the latest one, set it up, and stay away from the tv areas of the forum for 5 years

[boe]

If they made a larger screen, I wonder if it will have a scaler or some such thing to make it higher definition. Somewhere I thought I heard that once you go beyond a certain size you need to increase the resolution for the display not to look like a screen door is in front of it. I think the 150" panasonic was four times the standard high resolution. I think the fujitsu 70" has double.

[Nextro111]

The G9 Home Theater looks VERY nice, do you have any idea if a blu ray player is included?

[Don999]

is this a new stand (food) for the the 9G or ?

sorry my english im not

cheers

[fico99]

Thanks Phil, great article!

Did you pick-up some information about the future of their 42" plasma's and their XGA screens in general?

"Sound & Vision Online" says that: Pioneer has decided that the current 8G XGA 720P lineup will be the last year for it. In current generations to come, Pioneer will no longer make or sell XGA product, only 1080P.

Source: http://bitstream.soundandvisionmag.c...mmer-of-4.html

Cheers,
Fico

[boe]

Hello,

I'd like to clarify some things because I was an idiot and didn't ask the right people good questions.

1. The current Kuros available in stores right now are the 8G?

2. The demo model in the theatre - was that a 10G?

3. I keep hearing about the 9G which I don't think was on display for the general public but some are saying the prototype wasn't the 9G - is that correct?

4. Any details on the 9G available?


I see a lot of posts mentioning these things but I'm not sure they necessarily got better info than me.

Thanks

[Phil Hinton]

1. Yes, they are 8G.

2. The contrast concept was a concept screen, no details on when it will come to market, the same is true of the 9mm concept.

3. The 9G was on display but not at the main Pioneer stand, only invited guests were given the chance to see the 9G demos which where held at a hotel on the strip. The pictures above are from that demo showing 9G against 8G and other screens on the market. I was also shown the non-working body cases for the coming models.

4. I have given you as much information as I can on the 9G screens, there will be more detailed information at the European press event in May, which I hope to cover for the site.

Hope that helps.

[boe]

Phil - Thanks so much for clearing that up!

Anyone who saw the 9G's care to compare them to the concept one at the main display for picture quality and blacks being black?

[Rob20]

I wonder if the new range of Pioneer G9s will standardise the resolution to 1080p as Panasonic has.

[boe]

Please disregard if this has been posted before but in case it hasn't - http://www.tech.co.uk/home-entertain...leid=477388255

[boe]

If anyone saw the 9Gs- can you tell us if they are any thinner or lighter than the 8Gs?

[boe]

Some info from another forum on the 9Gs. The person says they saw them at CES and got a little info.

They say the 9Gs are no brighter than the 8Gs
They say they didn't notice any tint difference between the 9Gs and the 8Gs but he 9Gs seemed to have better blacks.
They think some of the 9Gs should be out by July

[Mics49]

The saddest thing about all this is, it might not be happening any more ...

In an ideal world, Pioneer engineering and Panasonic manufacturing come together to produce the true black ("10G") plasma pannels at "good" consumer prices (given the economy of scale of Panasonic).
I just hope they don't go for Sharp and/or LCD only ...

[Boxinghris]

Originally Posted by Phil Hinton

1. Yes, they are 8G.

2. The contrast concept was a concept screen, no details on when it will come to market, the same is true of the 9mm concept.

3. The 9G was on display but not at the main Pioneer stand, only invited guests were given the chance to see the 9G demos which where held at a hotel on the strip. The pictures above are from that demo showing 9G against 8G and other screens on the market. I was also shown the non-working body cases for the coming models.

4. I have given you as much information as I can on the 9G screens, there will be more detailed information at the European press event in May, which I hope to cover for the site.

Hope that helps.

Excellent coverage so thanks again for that.

I can't help thinking that perhaps Pioneer may have shot themselves in the foot however by demonstrating the '10G' concept when the 9G is yet to hit the market.

As an owner of a Panasonic 42" Viera I've been following latest developments at Pioneer closely as I was considering upgrading to a 50" 8G Kuro this year, but of course news of the 9G meant this might be the one to wait for.

The 10G demo has really put me off even a 9G purchase when the revolutionary 10G may render it old hat in a couple of years, and in fact it may take a couple of years to save the necessary funds fo the 10G so I for one am going to hang fire.

Of course, the latest generation is always going to be around the corner and I'd be perpetually waiting to jump on board if I was unwilling to put up with a better product appearing in a year or two, but from the sound of it the gap between 9G and 10G is virtually a chasm, and while owners of 8G might look at 9G and think the cost of upgrading isn't really necessary, owners of 9G might look at 10G and feel like they just HAVE to upgrade.

[Phil Hinton]

Originally Posted by Boxinghris

Excellent coverage so thanks again for that.

I can't help thinking that perhaps Pioneer may have shot themselves in the foot however by demonstrating the '10G' concept when the 9G is yet to hit the market.

As an owner of a Panasonic 42" Viera I've been following latest developments at Pioneer closely as I was considering upgrading to a 50" 8G Kuro this year, but of course news of the 9G meant this might be the one to wait for.

The 10G demo has really put me off even a 9G purchase when the revolutionary 10G may render it old hat in a couple of years, and in fact it may take a couple of years to save the necessary funds fo the 10G so I for one am going to hang fire.

Of course, the latest generation is always going to be around the corner and I'd be perpetually waiting to jump on board if I was unwilling to put up with a better product appearing in a year or two, but from the sound of it the gap between 9G and 10G is virtually a chasm, and while owners of 8G might look at 9G and think the cost of upgrading isn't really necessary, owners of 9G might look at 10G and feel like they just HAVE to upgrade.

There has been no firm decision that Pioneer will bring the 'concept' screens to market or if it is even viable. People seem to think these concepts will be 10G models, that is not the case and has never been mentioned by Pioneer as being the case.
We will just have to sit back and wait to see what Pioneer does with 10G as that will be the first to feature an outsourced panel. In the meantime we have 8G to enjoy and sometime in late summer we might even get 9G hitting the shelves

[madshi]

The ValueElectronics.com guy disagrees with you:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post13064190

Originally Posted by DTV TiVo Dealer

Actually, here's the scoop on Pioneer's rich blacks. This year's Kuros have 5 times blacker blacks vs. last years models. The next gen #9, will again achieve a 5 time increase in black level over the current Kuros.

The Gen 10 Kuro achieve total black, 0 ire.

At CES I had a great private dealer demo in a private hotel suite that was very very impressive. Pioneer keeps improving the advanced cell structure technology and contrast ratio.

His post was made before the "Pioneer will shut its fabs down" news, I think. So maybe his comment is outdated. But still that was the original plan according to him.

Now I'm not claiming he's right and you're wrong. But I'm also not convinced that you're right and he's wrong. I'll just wait and see what 10G will bring. But I'm still hopeful for 0 IRE technology...