Home Theater Magazine Subwoofer Test

Ian J · 09-10-2003, 11:54 AM

My eagerly awaited copy of Home Theater Magazine arrived today which contained the second part of a fairly lengthy two part subwoofer test.

The subwoofers on test were :-

Adire Sadhara
Canton AS50SC
Earthquake Supernova 10 Mk 4
JBL Studio 120P11
NHT SW12
Triad InRoom Silver
Totem Thunder
Velodyne SPL-1000 Mk 2

The two most interesting things about the test for me were the fact that none of the subwoofers were well known in this country or widely available, even though the Velodyne brand is known to forum members, and secondly that in order to get around room acoustic problems all the testing was done outside.

The summary came up with some interesting facts as his conclusion was that the bass that people hear is shaped by :-

1) The room the subwoofer is in
2) Where it is in that room
3) Where you are sitting in that room
4) What furnishings and acoustic treatments there are in the room
5) What equalization is being applied

Although we know the above, the author then concludes that taken individually, each of the above factors influences bass quality to a greater perceptible degree than the difference between any of the two subwoofers in the survey.

When asked which subwoofer he would buy he answered that he wouldn’t buy a single one of any of them but would plump for two of the same model, probably the Totem or Triad if he had the money or the JBL or Adire if he couldn’t afford the first two.

He said that he would experiment relentlessly with placement and when he had it about right he’d touch it up with an equalizer, leaving alone the frequency dips that are due to room cancellations and hence inherently unfixable. He would make his own bass traps and flexaural absorbers to control known acoustic problems then retest and re-equalize before coming to the best bit of all – dip the lights and enjoy.

I found it a lengthy but very interesting and different article to what we are used to reading.

hornydragon · 09-10-2003, 12:05 PM

Interesting how did the canton fair??? and the JBL???

JUS · 09-10-2003, 1:32 PM

Very interesting...but no SVS. Shame.

What would my wife say about having two subs in the same room

avanzato · 09-10-2003, 1:37 PM

After all the investigations I've done recently into room acoustics I have unfortunately come to the same conclusion.

Two subs, a bit of Eq. and room treatment.

Unfortunate because I can't really afford another SVS and if I could would have to rearrange the room again just to fit it in.

And it puts the subwoofer p*ssing contests in perspective. In the room they all sound crap.

andy572 · 09-10-2003, 1:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by avanzato
And it puts the subwoofer p*ssing contests in perspective. In the room they all sound crap.

Hear, hear!

lowrider · 09-10-2003, 2:30 PM

I told you all about the two subwoofers bit...

Ian J · 09-10-2003, 2:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lowrider
I told you all about the two subwoofers bit...

But we didn't ear you

lowrider · 09-10-2003, 3:11 PM

I know...

hornydragon · 09-10-2003, 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lowrider
I told you all about the two subwoofers bit...

He he when did they let you back in matey????
Yeah but WAF is stopping me having one let alone 2!!!!!!!!!

Nic Rhodes · 10-10-2003, 11:23 AM

Sounds like a breath of fresh air, I will have to sort iout a copy. Sounds like someone with something worthwhile to say.

Plump · 10-10-2003, 11:31 AM

I also have two (2 Storms) but found one (it was too expensive - so had to send it back) JMLAB much better than two storms.
It is very dependable on the room, VERY.

avanzato · 10-10-2003, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Plump
I also have two (2 Storms) but found one (it was too expensive - so had to send it back) JMLAB much better than two storms.
It is very dependable on the room, VERY.

Check out the Harman 'Subwoofers: Optimum Number and Locations' article for how it can be done. Subject to the room not having furniture in the wrong places and the WAF.

lowrider · 10-10-2003, 11:58 AM

Two, simetrical, will cancel the odd order harmonics, like a pair of speakers, so it is a great advantage to start with...

Steve.EX · 10-10-2003, 3:42 PM

TMREQ / AURALEX / BFD etc etc

vacant expressions abound again no doubt.

Steven

Anodyne · 10-10-2003, 4:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lowrider
Two, simetrical, will cancel the odd order harmonics, like a pair of speakers, so it is a great advantage to start with...

Wouldn't they have to be operating out of phase with one another to do this?

BTW how's Cascais? My mother lives out there so i know it quite well!

10-10-2003, 4:57 PM

I've just spent the practically a whole week trying to get my sub to sound right in my new house. It went from sounding absolutely garbage to very smooth indeed but this took hours of work and umpteen different positions and readings from an spl meter.

In my opinion you can't tell diddly squat about a sub in a room, the most expensive sub in the world put in the wrong place will pale in comparison to a cheaper sub well placed.

So many subs get slated for being slow and boomy when all they really need is to be placed correctly.

eviljohn2 · 10-10-2003, 5:04 PM

Surely the phase issues of interference depend entirely on where you're standing and the frequencies involved? A slight deviation from axis will make a huge difference unless both subs are on the same axis (stacked). That's if I remember my degree level Physics properly...

Anodyne · 10-10-2003, 5:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by eviljohn2
A slight deviation from axis will make a huge difference unless both subs are on the same axis (stacked).

That's what I thought, the subs should be co-located and operating mechanically out of phase...

lowrider · 10-10-2003, 6:04 PM

Do you wire your speakers out of phase...

Of course the subwoofers have to be on phase...

Cascais is great as usual, PM me when you visit your mother next time, so we can have a drink, and you listen to my system...

Anodyne · 10-10-2003, 6:18 PM

Sorry, what I meant was in order to cancel the odd order harmonics the subwoofers would have to be located together and operating mechanically out of phase. Its the same principle that M&K use with their push-pull subs, and SVS use it in the B4-plus.

Will

avanzato · 10-10-2003, 6:50 PM

I don't think anyone ever does but please read the PDF I linked to earlier.

From my limited knowledge of speakers push/pull works cos the drivers are in the same cabinet.

Anodyne · 10-10-2003, 7:11 PM

Is being in the same cabinet is essential? For instance M&K market a K-11 sub with an inverted driver which is designed to be used in tandem with the K-10 in order to create a push-pull system using two enclosures.

Will

avanzato · 10-10-2003, 7:48 PM

Like I said I'm not up on speaker design.

I've downloaded the K11 manual and it seems a weird product. Why not have a single box push/pull version of the K10 and sell that or (as it doubles the size of the K10) buy a bigger sub in the first place. The biggest gain I can see is that M&K get to sell two boxes instead of one. The K10 alone is about £700 isn't it?. The manual also says it cancels even order harmonics is that correct?

Anodyne · 10-10-2003, 8:37 PM

I suppose the idea is to give the option to upgrade at a later date. Maybe it give the usual advantages of two subs plus helps cancel even order harmonics as a kind of bonus.

Wasabi · 10-10-2003, 8:51 PM

Guys,

here is another respectable US magazine "soundandvision magazine" with a test of 10 subs if you don't have a copy of Home Theater Mag.

Canton AS 20 SC
Atlantic Technology T70.1 PBM
PSB Subsonic 5i
Velodyne CHT-15
M&K V-76
JBL SP120 II
Cambridge Soundworks Newton P500
Pinnacle Baby Boomer
B&W ASW 675
Bag End Infrasub-12

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/art...ber=1&preview=

Also for each sub there is pdf's of the test lab & subwoofer setup secrets.

Happy Reading.

Wasabi

Nic Rhodes · 11-10-2003, 8:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dom H
In my opinion you can't tell diddly squat about a sub in a room, the most expensive sub in the world put in the wrong place will pale in comparison to a cheaper sub well placed.

So many subs get slated for being slow and boomy when all they really need is to be placed correctly.

wise words

dunkyboy · 12-10-2003, 1:48 AM

Why didn't I think of that - two subs instead of one! Now I just need to get myself another ATC Concept 4.... somebody want ot lend me £2 grand....?

Seriously, though, positioning and setup really is the key to top-notch subwoofery. If you want your sub (whatever make or model) to perform its best, you really have to spend time keying it in to your room and finding that sweet spot.

Dunc

12-10-2003, 5:01 AM

I've finally succumbed to putting two subs in my room - hard to throw off my luddite, 2-channel mentality! The difference already is remarkable, and I haven't finished locating them yet. Once they're located (ETF is great for helping with this) I'll see if EQ needs to be applied; I already have ASC bass traps.

Even just by ear you can easily tell the difference they make over one sub. Certain troublesome modes are just not as apparent now. I sat a friend in front of the opening titles to Top Gun just before the France / Fiji game last night - he was mightily impressed!

Wish I'd done it sooner...!

lowrider · 12-10-2003, 11:05 AM

Better late then never...

It is the easiest thing to show too, you just switch one sub off, and the bass colapses, moves into the corner, so obvious...

12-10-2003, 4:16 PM

An ETF overlay shows the difference very well too. Incidentally, experimentation showed me that with one of the subs at 180 phase, I got a far more even response. I still have to move them around some more though to find the best place before I start with TMREQ. Trouble is, there are so many possible permutations now with the extra sub, especially when you take phase into account!

I hear the Krell doesn't allow you quite so much flexibility for EQ Antonio?

09-10-2003, 11:54 AM	#1
Ian J Ex Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Blog Entries: 3 Thanks: Gave 105, Got 304 Posts: 25,616	Home Theater Magazine Subwoofer Test Advertisement Want to Advertise? My eagerly awaited copy of Home Theater Magazine arrived today which contained the second part of a fairly lengthy two part subwoofer test. The subwoofers on test were :- Adire Sadhara Canton AS50SC Earthquake Supernova 10 Mk 4 JBL Studio 120P11 NHT SW12 Triad InRoom Silver Totem Thunder Velodyne SPL-1000 Mk 2 The two most interesting things about the test for me were the fact that none of the subwoofers were well known in this country or widely available, even though the Velodyne brand is known to forum members, and secondly that in order to get around room acoustic problems all the testing was done outside. The summary came up with some interesting facts as his conclusion was that the bass that people hear is shaped by :- 1) The room the subwoofer is in 2) Where it is in that room 3) Where you are sitting in that room 4) What furnishings and acoustic treatments there are in the room 5) What equalization is being applied Although we know the above, the author then concludes that taken individually, each of the above factors influences bass quality to a greater perceptible degree than the difference between any of the two subwoofers in the survey. When asked which subwoofer he would buy he answered that he wouldn’t buy a single one of any of them but would plump for two of the same model, probably the Totem or Triad if he had the money or the JBL or Adire if he couldn’t afford the first two. He said that he would experiment relentlessly with placement and when he had it about right he’d touch it up with an equalizer, leaving alone the frequency dips that are due to room cancellations and hence inherently unfixable. He would make his own bass traps and flexaural absorbers to control known acoustic problems then retest and re-equalize before coming to the best bit of all – dip the lights and enjoy. I found it a lengthy but very interesting and different article to what we are used to reading.
	Quote

10-10-2003, 3:42 PM	#14
Steve.EX Prominent Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Thanks: Gave 20, Got 73 Posts: 3,022	TMREQ / AURALEX / BFD etc etc vacant expressions abound again no doubt. Steven Last edited by Steve.EX; 10-10-2003 at 3:44 PM.
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09-10-2003, 12:05 PM	#2
hornydragon Eminent Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Somewhere near the M4 most of the time, sometime the M5 or 6 or 25 Thanks: Gave 103, Got 1,421 Posts: 28,258	Interesting how did the canton fair??? and the JBL???
	Quote

09-10-2003, 1:32 PM	#3
JUS Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Plute Thanks: Gave 42, Got 99 Posts: 2,775	Very interesting...but no SVS. Shame. What would my wife say about having two subs in the same room
	Quote

09-10-2003, 1:37 PM	#4
avanzato Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: New Crobuzon Thanks: Gave 6, Got 62 Posts: 1,852	After all the investigations I've done recently into room acoustics I have unfortunately come to the same conclusion. Two subs, a bit of Eq. and room treatment. Unfortunate because I can't really afford another SVS and if I could would have to rearrange the room again just to fit it in. And it puts the subwoofer p*ssing contests in perspective. In the room they all sound crap.
	Quote

09-10-2003, 2:30 PM	#6
lowrider Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Riga, Latvia Thanks: Gave 1, Got 1 Posts: 684	I told you all about the two subwoofers bit...
	Quote

09-10-2003, 3:11 PM	#8
lowrider Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Riga, Latvia Thanks: Gave 1, Got 1 Posts: 684	I know...
	Quote

10-10-2003, 11:23 AM	#10
Nic Rhodes Illustrious Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Cumbria Thanks: Gave 890, Got 1,284 Posts: 17,080	Sounds like a breath of fresh air, I will have to sort iout a copy. Sounds like someone with something worthwhile to say.
	Quote

10-10-2003, 11:31 AM	#11
Plump Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: under the bridge Thanks: Gave 0, Got 0 Posts: 638	I also have two (2 Storms) but found one (it was too expensive - so had to send it back) JMLAB much better than two storms. It is very dependable on the room, VERY.
	Quote

10-10-2003, 11:58 AM	#13
lowrider Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Riga, Latvia Thanks: Gave 1, Got 1 Posts: 684	Two, simetrical, will cancel the odd order harmonics, like a pair of speakers, so it is a great advantage to start with...
	Quote

10-10-2003, 4:57 PM	#16
Dom H Guest Posts: n/a	I've just spent the practically a whole week trying to get my sub to sound right in my new house. It went from sounding absolutely garbage to very smooth indeed but this took hours of work and umpteen different positions and readings from an spl meter. In my opinion you can't tell diddly squat about a sub in a room, the most expensive sub in the world put in the wrong place will pale in comparison to a cheaper sub well placed. So many subs get slated for being slow and boomy when all they really need is to be placed correctly.
	Quote

10-10-2003, 5:04 PM	#17
eviljohn2 Conspicuous Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Near London. Thanks: Gave 79, Got 228 Posts: 7,556	Surely the phase issues of interference depend entirely on where you're standing and the frequencies involved? A slight deviation from axis will make a huge difference unless both subs are on the same axis (stacked). That's if I remember my degree level Physics properly...
	Quote

10-10-2003, 6:04 PM	#19
lowrider Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Riga, Latvia Thanks: Gave 1, Got 1 Posts: 684	Do you wire your speakers out of phase... Of course the subwoofers have to be on phase... Cascais is great as usual, PM me when you visit your mother next time, so we can have a drink, and you listen to my system...
	Quote

10-10-2003, 6:18 PM	#20
Anodyne Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Bristol Thanks: Gave 92, Got 96 Posts: 489	Sorry, what I meant was in order to cancel the odd order harmonics the subwoofers would have to be located together and operating mechanically out of phase. Its the same principle that M&K use with their push-pull subs, and SVS use it in the B4-plus. Will
	Quote

10-10-2003, 6:50 PM	#21
avanzato Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: New Crobuzon Thanks: Gave 6, Got 62 Posts: 1,852	I don't think anyone ever does but please read the PDF I linked to earlier. From my limited knowledge of speakers push/pull works cos the drivers are in the same cabinet.
	Quote

10-10-2003, 7:11 PM	#22
Anodyne Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Bristol Thanks: Gave 92, Got 96 Posts: 489	Is being in the same cabinet is essential? For instance M&K market a K-11 sub with an inverted driver which is designed to be used in tandem with the K-10 in order to create a push-pull system using two enclosures. Will
	Quote

10-10-2003, 7:48 PM	#23
avanzato Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: New Crobuzon Thanks: Gave 6, Got 62 Posts: 1,852	Like I said I'm not up on speaker design. I've downloaded the K11 manual and it seems a weird product. Why not have a single box push/pull version of the K10 and sell that or (as it doubles the size of the K10) buy a bigger sub in the first place. The biggest gain I can see is that M&K get to sell two boxes instead of one. The K10 alone is about £700 isn't it?. The manual also says it cancels even order harmonics is that correct?
	Quote

10-10-2003, 8:37 PM	#24
Anodyne Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Bristol Thanks: Gave 92, Got 96 Posts: 489	I suppose the idea is to give the option to upgrade at a later date. Maybe it give the usual advantages of two subs plus helps cancel even order harmonics as a kind of bonus.
	Quote

10-10-2003, 8:51 PM	#25
Wasabi Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: SBC (Swedish Born Chinese)/lived in UK since 96, Colchester since 02 Thanks: Gave 22, Got 35 Posts: 1,192	Guys, here is another respectable US magazine "soundandvision magazine" with a test of 10 subs if you don't have a copy of Home Theater Mag. Canton AS 20 SC Atlantic Technology T70.1 PBM PSB Subsonic 5i Velodyne CHT-15 M&K V-76 JBL SP120 II Cambridge Soundworks Newton P500 Pinnacle Baby Boomer B&W ASW 675 Bag End Infrasub-12 http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/art...ber=1&preview= Also for each sub there is pdf's of the test lab & subwoofer setup secrets. Happy Reading. Wasabi
	Quote

12-10-2003, 1:48 AM	#27
dunkyboy Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: London Thanks: Gave 0, Got 6 Posts: 615	Why didn't I think of that - two subs instead of one! Now I just need to get myself another ATC Concept 4.... somebody want ot lend me £2 grand....? Seriously, though, positioning and setup really is the key to top-notch subwoofery. If you want your sub (whatever make or model) to perform its best, you really have to spend time keying it in to your room and finding that sweet spot. Dunc
	Quote

12-10-2003, 5:01 AM	#28
Peter Guest Posts: n/a	I've finally succumbed to putting two subs in my room - hard to throw off my luddite, 2-channel mentality! The difference already is remarkable, and I haven't finished locating them yet. Once they're located (ETF is great for helping with this) I'll see if EQ needs to be applied; I already have ASC bass traps. Even just by ear you can easily tell the difference they make over one sub. Certain troublesome modes are just not as apparent now. I sat a friend in front of the opening titles to Top Gun just before the France / Fiji game last night - he was mightily impressed! Wish I'd done it sooner...!
	Quote

12-10-2003, 11:05 AM	#29
lowrider Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Riga, Latvia Thanks: Gave 1, Got 1 Posts: 684	Better late then never... It is the easiest thing to show too, you just switch one sub off, and the bass colapses, moves into the corner, so obvious...
	Quote

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Home Theater Magazine Subwoofer Test

12-10-2003, 4:16 PM	#30
Peter Guest Posts: n/a	An ETF overlay shows the difference very well too. Incidentally, experimentation showed me that with one of the subs at 180 phase, I got a far more even response. I still have to move them around some more though to find the best place before I start with TMREQ. Trouble is, there are so many possible permutations now with the extra sub, especially when you take phase into account! I hear the Krell doesn't allow you quite so much flexibility for EQ Antonio?
	Quote