A few questions about HT attics...

[MI55ION]

Hi,

I've been reading these forums for sometime now and it's got me thinking... I live in a semi with the living room on the attached side so my current HT room isn't ideal as I do like to crank it up more often than my neighbours (bless 'em) would like.

So I've been thinking about alternatives and a dedicated cinema/music room seem to be the natural progression and although I don't have the funds to make it happen immediately, I would just like to gather some ideas here.

One option I have is to convert my attic, since I am on a budget I would like to do most of the work myself but this is where the problem lies, I have hardly any experience in DIY. My first hurdle is to insulate the roof, currently there is no underlay(?) for the roof tiles, this means wind and water can easily get inside through the gaps. I've been looking into roof insulation and expanding foam such as Froth-pak has really caught my attention, it appears to be relatively easy on the beginner and sounds like it can really work to provide an air and water tight solution. So despite all the marketing talk, question is do these products really work as they claim?

Secondly, how practical is a HT in an attic, particularly on a semi detached property? How effective is sound proofing, can you actually watch movies at levels that most would consider extremely loud without disturbing the neighbours?

That's about all for now but I'm sure I'll be coming back here for more valued advice, many thanks.

[wolfboy79]

You will need to check whether you have the headroom in your attic. If it is turned in to a permanent room you will probably need a fixed staircase meaning you will lose space on the first floor. You may also need to reinforce the joists as they were designed to hold a ceiling up rather than a floor, however I'm not totally up to date so may be wrong.

I guess the trouble is you will still have a party wall in the attic. If your attached to your neighbours physically and you like your bass deep they're going to hear it no matter what sound proofing you try

I sound a bit negative only because I've weighed it up and discounted it, although others have done very successful installs in loft spaces on this and the gallery forum.

Although I'm not a roofer or builder by any stretch I would have thought your tiles would have felt between them and the rafters to prevent wind and water. If there's gaps for wind and water to get through you've got bigger problems.

Typically insulation is cut and fitted between rafters with an airgap between this and the felt for ventilation which is very important. Plaster board is then fitted over the top.

I sympathise with you but I'm saving for a single storey extension to the side of my house possibly two storey to get my home cinema far away from the neighbours! 5 years away though I reckon

Some-one's also put one in a shed!? (not saying I would just letting you know)

[esdubu]

Blatantly stolen from another forum

Spray-on roof repairs should be avoided - unless your home is really about to fall down.

THE ROOFING JOB THAT GIVES BODGING A BAD NAME - Jeff Howell - lecturer in construction technology at South Bank University, London, (research into dampness in buildings funded by the British government.) http://www.onthelevel.in-uk.com


(First published in The Sunday Telegraph, 10/10/99)

The origin of the term "bodging" is the old custom of sealing the headlaps of roof tiles by trowelling on lime-and-horsehair mortar from the inside. This traditional practice stopped rain or snow being blown in, whilst still allowing the roof to "breathe".

It is obvious how, from such noble beginnings, the word "bodge" later came to refer to a clumsy bit of plastering or other repair work, and thence to its modern use for any kind of bad work. It is also ironic that one of the biggest bodges around now is the sealing of roofs against the elements from the inside - only the modern bodging, rather than usingdollops of lime and horsehair, is to spray the whole roof with foam.

I wrote about this practice a few months ago, pointing out that spraying foam onto the undersides of slate or tile roofs is actually a bad idea. It is advertised as a cheap alternative to a proper roofing overhaul, but is very much a short-term solution; the foam makes it difficult for the slates or tiles to ever be re-used, and increases thelikelihood of condensation in the rafters and battens, hence hastening the process of wood rot.

The National Federation of Roofing Contractors, which represents the responsible end of the roofing industry, even publishes a Technical Bulletin on the subject, which points out the risks that foam under-coatings pose to roof timbers. The Bulletin advises that the foam should not make contact with any of the timbers, which - since the process involves spraying foam over the battens - is clearly not possible. A spokesman for the NFRC told me that the only situation where he could recommend a foam under-coating would be to extend the life of an old dilapidated building, such as a farmer's barn, for another few years until it was demolished. He said the system was unsuitable for domestic properties, as it interferes with the two essential principles of good roofing practice - that a roof should be able to move, and that it should be able to breathe.

The foam under-coating industry has naturally been very upset by my comments, and insists there have been no reported cases of condensation or wood rot. This is hardly surprising, as even if any of the industry's clients were in the habit of climbing ladders and crawling around on their roofs to check for problems, they would be unable to see much - the foam stops tiles being lifted from the outside, and the battens are hidden by foam on the inside. The condensation and rot are taking place out of sight and out of mind.

Apart from denying the existence of any problems, the foam sprayers are also not above making fanciful claims for their product. One firm was recently pulled up by the Advertising Standards Authority for falsely claiming that the process was "Government approved", and "Recommended by Chartered Architects and Surveyors". Adverts for foam under-coatings also regularly claim compliance with the Building Regulations, which is difficult to comprehend - my copy of the Building Regs mkes it clear that where insulation follows the pitch of a roof, there should always be a clear ventilated 50 mm air gap between the insulation and the roof covering.

So if you are thinking of having your roof under-coated, then think again. And if you have already had it done, and feel that the product has been mis-sold to you, then you may wish to discuss it with your local authority Trading Standards Office.


As far as i can tell, the ONLY way of converting your attic into a habitable space is to have the roof tiles taken off, breathable membrane placed over the battens and tiles replaced. Probably looking at a couple of grand for that. Mine was £3000 but that was with a lot of the slates being replaced. As a rough guide i would budget about £4-5000 for a diy loft conversion. A little bit less if you do what i've done and just have a ladder going up there. Check out my thread here,

My AV Loft!!!

for some pictures of what you're roof should look like before you even start making it into a room.

[velvitjester]

Originally Posted by MI55ION

Hi,

I've been reading these forums for sometime now and it's got me thinking... I live in a semi with the living room on the attached side so my current HT room isn't ideal as I do like to crank it up more often than my neighbours (bless 'em) would like.

So I've been thinking about alternatives and a dedicated cinema/music room seem to be the natural progression and although I don't have the funds to make it happen immediately, I would just like to gather some ideas here.

One option I have is to convert my attic, since I am on a budget I would like to do most of the work myself but this is where the problem lies, I have hardly any experience in DIY. My first hurdle is to insulate the roof, currently there is no underlay(?) for the roof tiles, this means wind and water can easily get inside through the gaps. I've been looking into roof insulation and expanding foam such as Froth-pak has really caught my attention, it appears to be relatively easy on the beginner and sounds like it can really work to provide an air and water tight solution. So despite all the marketing talk, question is do these products really work as they claim?

Secondly, how practical is a HT in an attic, particularly on a semi detached property? How effective is sound proofing, can you actually watch movies at levels that most would consider extremely loud without disturbing the neighbours?

That's about all for now but I'm sure I'll be coming back here for more valued advice, many thanks.

very bad idea imo.

I have worked with tradesmen, on sites as a labourer,built granny flats and I decided not to touch my attic.

The insulating etc is easy,its the strengthening the floor thats the problem.

Attic were never designed to take the weight,so basically the have no floor,just something to take plasterboard to cover the upstairs rooms.

Unless you know exactly what you are doing I would steer clear.

If it went wrong the best case scenario is you floor colapses,worst is it pulls your roof down.

Originally Posted by esdubu

#


As far as i can tell, the ONLY way of converting your attic into a habitable space is to have the roof tiles taken off, breathable membrane placed over the battens and tiles replaced. Probably looking at a couple of grand for that. Mine was £3000 but that was with a lot of the slates being replaced. As a rough guide i would budget about £4-5000 for a diy loft conversion. A little bit less if you do what i've done and just have a ladder going up there. Check out my thread here,

My AV Loft!!!

for some pictures of what you're roof should look like before you even start making it into a room.

No,thats sounds like complete overkill tbh ,there must have been a problem with your roof,for them to take the tiles off.Or they wanted to do a really,really god job.


To make the room habitable,
you have to make sure there are no leaks in your roof,insulate it
wire and plasterboard it
strengthen the floor etc

that breathable membrane would be used on new builds but is completely unnecesary on old builds unless there is underlying problems.

[esdubu]

I was having the roof reslated anyway as there were a few leaks, 100 year old slate roof. A mate of mine who has also done his loft out pinned the breathable membrane to the underside of the rafters and then insulated and plasterboarded on top of that, but you'd lose quite a bit of head height doing that. He is in a semi detached property and even though he tried to soundproof the party wall the neighbours can still hear the speakers if they are on too loud. Mine's even worse as i am in a mid terrace so i've got people on both sides!

[MarkP80]

Hi,

One option I have is to convert my attic, since I am on a budget I would like to do most of the work myself but this is where the problem lies, I have hardly any experience in DIY.

- Your first issue is whether you are going to convert it into a recognised habitable room, or if you just want a storage room that you occasionally use to watch the odd film....

If you want to make a recognised room, then it must meet building regulations, some aspects of which have been touched on above - access for example. Building regs also includes noise regulations, and you would be required to put up a false wall with an airgap against the party wall to comply with these.

The joists are designed to take a load commensurate with the room being used for storage. They will be ok for you to board out and walk on, but they are not designed to meet the specifications for normal room loadings. To meet building regs, these will need to be replaced (in practice you generally leave them in, but put deeper joists in, so the old ones in effect have nothing touvhing them).

If your roof is watertight, then it shouldn't need any membrane, as velvitjester says. The usual way is to put solid foam Kingspan insulation between the rafters, again as has been said, maintaining a 50mm ventialtion airgap between the Kingspan and the tiles. Board over and plaster.

I've had a friend convert the ceiling as above, board the existing joists, and make a perfectly usable occasional hobby room, but didn't come close in passing building regs to make an official habitable room. You pays your money etc.....

MarkP

[MI55ION]

Wow thanks a bunch for the great feedback guys.

The issue for me at the moment is that I have neighbours on one side and I don't think the party wall is very good since I could hear them quite easily when they're talking excitedly or laughing. This makes me wonder what they must be going through in those moments when I get carried away and listen to my music or films really loud. There's always this uncomfortable feeling in the back of my mind that forces me to turn it down, now as any av enthusiast will know, being comfortable whilst listening is critical to an enjoyable session and unfortunately that nagging feeling is a major downer for me at present. What more I love my neighbours to bits and actually care about their well being and although in the three years that we've lived here and had not a single complaint, I really don't wish to traumatise them any further. To make matters worse they are actually renting next door and plan to move soon so I'm thinking about what the new neighbours might be like once they've moved out. Thanks to the many threads on here, I've already reserved a plan to soundproof all my party walls which will hopefully resolve any sound issues in the short term from a more basic AV setup. However I still need my adrenaline rush every once in a while so my main system needs to be rehoused in a soundproof room.

If I've understood what's been said so far here, for someone like me living in a semi the issue with sound will always be present and no amount of soundproofing will take care of that problem 100%. Sadly this pretty much discounts a HT in the attic (and my current room) which is a shame as I would have liked to use that space. All is not lost however since I could always turn the attic into a storage area. I still have the problem with my roof not having felt or any sort of membrane, there's just the rafters and tiles. When I recently went up there for the first time to investigate, I couldn't believe how breezy it was, no wonder the heating bills kill me in the winter! What little insulation there was on the attic floor appears to have turned to dust over the years, I know that whatever happens the attic really could do with proper insulation. Now going back to my issue with a limited budget, don't think I could afford builder/roofers to remove the tiles and fit a weather proof membrane etc. So is it possible for someone like me to somehow fit a membrane from the inside? I could then leave the necessary air gap and finish off with insulation and plasterboards. What product do I use if not the expanding foam? I really need help here.

Wolfboy79, from what you say it seems like you've already been through the thought process that I'm currently going through. My choices for a HT are very similar to the ones you've hinted at: attic conversion, extension to the rear but on the opposite wall (the detached side) and last of all, a dedicated garden shed/house (luckily there's plenty of space in the garden). The garden shed would be bulletproof in terms of sound insulation and its appeal is that I could start from scratch building something to my exact needs but I'm not too sure how I could live with it on a day to day basis e.g. running back and forth from the house into the shed and so on, I might alienate the wife and our future family. So this would leave me with the extension plan although I would need to get an proper architect to check out the structure etc and if it is possible to make dramatic changes to the internal layout of rooms, e.g. getting rid of walls etc.

Sorry for waffling on a bit, hopefully some of what I've said will allow you to understand my dilemma and help in finding me a solution.

Thanks again.

[Magslad]

Hi MI55ION

You'll find it very difficult (and expensive) to 100% soundproof a room for HC, as the previous posters have said there is always likely to be some sound that bleeds through. Also with converting a loft for HC, this can turn out very expensive (as I'm finding our at the moment ) and you also need to think that if you're watching movies later at night and sound bleeding through to next door is more likely to affect their bedrooms. Plus, of course, the only realistic place to put the screen/speakers etc is on the party wall so it makes the situation as bad as possible! I'm able to get away with it, partly because I don't crank it up a huge amount and partly because the old dear next door is deaf as a post

In terms of other options, an extension is the obvious one (but also obviously fairly expensive). If you are looking at using a shed, you need to think about security. If you leave it basically as a shed (but tart it up inside), then a lot of insurance companies will only cover a certain amount, and also may specify certain items that can be kept there (gardden equipment, bikes etc) so you would need to check that your HC kit would be covered if there was a break-in. If, however, you knock down your shed and build something more substantial (i.e. a 'habitable room') then you are getting into planning permission/building control etc

With respect to your loft, I fully agree with the other posters, steer completely clear of those foam-type products. If you are just planning to use it as a storage room, think carefully about how much money you want to invest in it. Obviously proper insulation is a good idea in any case, but if it's just for storage do you want to go to the expense and hassle of plasterboarding it? I think esdubu has suggested the best idea - you can fit a membrane to the rafters instead of removing the tiles. Then you can batten & insulate on top of this (which will lose you head-height, but not really an issue if you are just using it for storage), put new insulation on the floor and then chipboard over the top. This would give you an insulated loft and an area you could use for storage, but wouldn't cost too much and would be pretty easy to do yourself with just basic DIY skills. It wouldn't look as nice as then plasterboarding it, but if it's just for storage do you really care?

[esdubu]

To be honest if you're just using the loft for storage i wouldn't bother insulating the roof, i would just insulate the floor in there. That way your living space will be insulated and your roof will remain as well ventilated as possible. Cavity wall insulation might be a good idea as well if you're worried about your heating bills!