Removing vertical beams in loft

[DaveCHCI]

Hi, I am looking to move my scalextric track into the loft and get a "boys toys" room setup, scalextric / big tv / poker table / MAME machine etc and you will see in the photos that there are two vertical timbers. I want to remove these but am unsure as to if I can. The roof has typical "W" shaped beams. The verticals dont seem to be carrying any load as they move / wobble quite easily.

Is it safe or not? I know it may need somebody to physically check, but just wondered if they could be temporary beams that were put in when the house/roof was being built.

http://i639.photobucket.com/albums/u...i/DSCN0288.jpg

http://i639.photobucket.com/albums/u...i/DSCN0289.jpg

http://i639.photobucket.com/albums/u...i/DSCN0290.jpg

http://i639.photobucket.com/albums/u...i/DSCN0292.jpg

http://i639.photobucket.com/albums/u...i/DSCN0291.jpg

Thanks

[Badger0-0]

Interesting question this, because I've often wondered the same.
The triangle is a strong shape on it's own and as you say, they never seem to have any load on them, which makes me wonder if they're just there for the original assemply of the roof.

I'm interested to see the answer to this one.

[AdzAV]

They could be superficial but I doubt they would have been used in the erection of the roof as the w sections are usually prefab and dropped in place if it is a new build. Even more tradtional build wouldn't have needed these timbers.

I also think they have been installed for a purpose and are not satisfying that purpose as they are not secure.

The cheapest/free bet is to speak to a roofing contractor and yarn on about wanting him to open up the loft space for you and create a bedroom or something, then casually ask what they are. You'll soon find out if they are needed or not.

The most advisable thing to do is to ask a structural engineer

By the way, (almost) as soon as you put a plug socket in the loft, it will be classified as a habitable space and you will have to bring it up to regs.

HTH

[Badger0-0]

"assemply" I really don't know where that one came from

By the way, (almost) as soon as you put a plug socket in the loft, it will be classified as a habitable space and you will have to bring it up to regs.

Very good point.

So any trailing cables etc have to be sorted.

[Sanders79]

Originally Posted by AdzAV

I also think they have been installed for a purpose and are not satisfying that purpose as they are not secure.

Also agree with this. I couldn't quite figure out if the rafters are attached to the joists where they meet the wall plate. If so, I guess there shouldn't be a problem. However, if not then the weight of the roof timbers, tiles etc will mean the roof naturally wants to push the walls out, and I suspect this is what the vertical timbers are supposed to be preventing, although I would have expected more than two if so!

My bet would be that taking these timbers out would not make any difference if they are wobbling around so much. A good idea would be to fit some ridge collars on each pair of rafters to help stop the spread. Looking at the size of the loft though I guess the rafters are pretty long, so collars alone might not be enough.

Anyway, to cut a long story short, find a friendly builder/roofer and ask their advice. It will all be possible for relatively small £££s.

Cheers.

[Badger0-0]

My bet would be that taking these timbers out would not make any difference if they are wobbling around so much. A good idea would be to fit some ridge collars on each pair of rafters to help stop the spread. Looking at the size of the loft though I guess the rafters are pretty long, so collars alone might not be enough.

Tell that to the insurers

[John7]

I think you'll find these beams are to prevent the ridge sagging in the middle - you would need a structural engineer to confirm.

[albriscoe]

I aren`t a builder

but I think they are their for a reason, the reason a traditional roof does`nt have them is usually a timber runner or steel joist runs from gable to gable like this

http://www.avforums.com/forums/5014274-post32.html

I think the vertical ones in your loft are just a bit of extra stability even though they might wobble a bit

[Brien]

The "W" design is a common fink type engineered support design.

In a truss roof as this is, man made but still essentially trussed, there is a purpose of these vertical framing members.

The load from the environment can place heavy pressure on the exterior.

Removing them without adding first, horizontal spanned beams with calculated support framing might actually cause your roof to sag.

In the heaviest of environmental loads, the roof would collapse. The reason they are wobble is that this is most likely an older home and shifting and settling of the structure has loosened them up.

[deansocial]

Originally Posted by Brien

The "W" design is a common fink type engineered support design.

In a truss roof as this is, man made but still essentially trussed, there is a purpose of these vertical framing members.

The load from the environment can place heavy pressure on the exterior.

Removing them without adding first, horizontal spanned beams with calculated support framing might actually cause your roof to sag.

In the heaviest of environmental loads, the roof would collapse. The reason they are wobble is that this is most likely an older home and shifting and settling of the structure has loosened them up.

but this is a vrtical member therefore it wouldnt be a fink truss it would be a king truss

[Gary Lightfoot]

Originally Posted by Brien

The load from the environment can place heavy pressure on the exterior.

I guess worst case would be a roof load of snow?

Gary

[Brien]

Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot

I guess worst case would be a roof load of snow?

Gary

It could be. High and/or sustained wind can place an awful lot of pressure on a roof as well.

@deansocial: A more accurate description might be a "king rod Howe truss". These designs are named after the engineers that developed them, Fink, Howe, Fan and Pratt. I know we use the term king truss in our day to day lexicon, but it is inaccurate since the king is used to define a purlin and not a design style

[RipMaster]

Apart from the look and design in the photos, the other thing that suggest to me that they are structural rather than temp (during onstruction) supprots - is that the wood is the same as that used for the rest of the wood timbers. I don;t know many buiilder who's do that if it was temp. They'd either take it away and re-use or use something cheaper or removable.

Personally I'd suggest they are structural. No way I'd be cutting those out without a structural survey and calculations to factor what strengthening needs to be put in place to compensate for their removal. It should not be that complex to achieve, but your buildings insurance will probably be invalid unless you have professional calculations to support the changes, even if an experienced builder can tell you simply what needs to be be done.