monkeys new lounge

[monkeyboy69]

Ive always wanted to do this, make my ultimate room, so i will over the following pages define and go through whats been done and give pictures along route so everyone can see.

So basically , moved into a new place after the divorce and girlfriend has ok'd the lounge to be a cinema room. the lounge is about 21 ft x 11.5 ft (sorry i work in old money)

Only problem is a bloody great big fireplace on one of the walls, its about 4 foot wide by 2 ft deep and has smaller brickj plinths on either side, major eye sore. So ive had the builders in to remove this. Had a quote off several firms and have applied for a building notice off the council.
quotes are in and the work is under way.

First I wanted a greater amount of sockets tied into the ring mains to spread the load but i also wanted several of them to be on a single isolator switch so i could turn them off with ease at night. all done adn looking good
Ive also had 4 cat 5e cables run from the lounge upto the loft which ive got a 16 port netgear switch distributes the network around the house.

So the builders are taking the old chimney out and were going to support the upper part of the chimney with galllows brackets and hangers. The chimney is made of poured concrete and problem is halfway through and the building inspector now wants 2 new RSJ in to support everything, it also means 1 wall has to be knocked through and rebuilt using high density bricks to support the RSJ. The ceiling has to be pulled to get the RSJs in and the joists moved over to the new RSJ, basically loads more work has to be done or it wont be signed off.
My first question to all those in the know and i know ive been long winded about this, but if ive been quoted for a job i.e removal of a chimney and been given a price, if the job changes and becomes more involved and can i hold the builders to the original quote or do i have to suck it up and just pay out.
Shouldnt the builders have sized up the job correctly in the first place, they're argument was until things had been opened up your couldnt tell the magnitude fo the job.

Any help guys

ive got 9 days until the lease runs out on my rented place and the hose looks like a tornados hit it, literally

[gurpswoo1]

Hi there monkeyboy69

This is information i got from a quick google search: -

This is legal mind field really and hasn't been sorted out in a long time, I guess the question is did you get a proper written contract approved by an independent body like the federation of master builders. Most builders doing work for homeowners don't use these and just give a quote which often makes no mention of "extras". If you do have a contract and is an estimate it should allow some sort of contingency cost and who holds the responsibility.

The builder has under estimated your job, I would tread lightly and ask the guy to be honest with you what is situation if he is honest and says I miscalculated and under estimated and if you can afford it sometimes the best thing to do is split it with him covering material costs which he might not be able to pay and letting him absorb labour costs which in the end he can do himself and absorb personal loss.

Honesty from him at this point will tell you a lot about kind of person he is.

However You May have a serious problem here because some types of builders will just walk away sometimes if you say forget it we have a contract.

This is an age old problem.
You thought (hoped!) it included for everything.
He quoted for the minimum to keep his price low to get the job.
You didn't understand that X was included in his price but Y problem wasn't.
You may not have even known you had a Y problem or the builder may have invented Y.

You need an arbitrator but that is going to cost you (more) money!

Sorry! This is a very common problem!

I'm not a builder or qualified professional, but i hope this info or someone on this forum can help you out.

Good Luck

[MarkP80]

So the builders are taking the old chimney out and were going to support the upper part of the chimney with galllows brackets and hangers. The chimney is made of poured concrete and problem is halfway through and the building inspector now wants 2 new RSJ in to support everything,

- Did you discuss what you were going to do with the building inspector first? Did he approve your original scheme? The problem you often get is that you don't know what needs to be done until you've uncovered things. Did you all think the chimney was a brick construction initially, with the actual construction not revealed until you started?

If you had originally agreed with the builder and the building inspector to put the cantilever supports in, and these later turn out to be inadequate due to the chimney's construction, then you surely can't expect the builder to do the extra work without payment can you?

If you didn't agree what you were going to do with the inspector before you started, then you might argue that the builder should have known the supports would be inadequate. However, in my opinion, he has still quoted you to do specific work, ie put cantilever supports in, and if the construction method is later changed, then so does the price i believe.

Does your builder have any calcs to demonstrate that his proposed supports would be satisfactory? I presume not, as he would have been able to show these to the inspector. My experience of builders has been that if they don't have calcs, then they would discuss with the inspector their plans before starting, to prevent this kind of problem. The inspectors I have dealt with have been helpful with such matters. If your builder didn't do this, and was proceeding with his own solution with no calcs or inspector's prior agreement, then I have to say I wouldn't be happy. I still don't think you would have any call on him to do the required works within the cost of his original quote though (which as I say, is probably specific in the actual work he is going to do).

Cheers,
MarkP

[monkeyboy69]

all valid points
My issue being the builder designated how to do the job, not me and therefore i am guilded by his expert knowledge and he quoted based on the work involved. There were higher quotes and lower quotes, perhaps the higher quotes incorperated the extra steel, who knows, but surely it down to the builder to determine how a job is to be done and quote accordingly.

Prior to the job the inspector said the plan from the builder was ok. Due to further uncovering the building inspetor then said sorry but we need something more structural in place to support the weight above. Fair enough, but the onus should have been on the builder to abide by his original quote, he was the one who originally stated what was required and my intention for work has never changed, ie. remove chimney. It is a mine field but the builders have now walked off the job and im left with a complete wreck of a house. which im meant to move into next week.
It was immaculate when they came in 4 days ago and now 7 rooms have been compromised, I've got 3 brand new ruin carpets, ripped carpet, broken windows, destroyed decoration in room that shoudlnt have been touched , floor boards unsecured upstairs, no ceiling in part of lounge and they threatened my girlfriend yesterday. I'm absolutely gutted and to top it that wanted a big wad as they left, which i didnt part with. the little faith i had in these trades people has vanished.

I did get this little gem from lawsense website

If the bill is greater than the builder's quote

If a builder's quotation is accepted by a customer, the customer is not obliged to pay the greater amount and is within his/her rights to send a cheque for the agreed amount as accepted by the customer. The builder will be unsuccessful in pursuing a claim for the greater sum. A quotation may be accepted by firstly marking it with the word 'accepted', secondly signing and dating it and finally, returning it to the builder.

If for some reason the bill is greater than what was quoted to you by the builder, pay only what you agreed upon.

[Da_Rude_Baboon]

Originally Posted by monkeyboy69

Prior to the job the inspector said the plan from the builder was ok. Due to further uncovering the building inspetor then said sorry but we need something more structural in place to support the weight above. Fair enough, but the onus should have been on the builder to abide by his original quote, he was the one who originally stated what was required and my intention for work has never changed, ie. remove chimney.

Sorry but up to this point the builder has done nothing wrong. They can only quote based upon the evidence they have and the building inspector agreed. Working on old buildings is a nightmare and until the fabric of the building is exposed you simply do not know what you will find. This is why you are recommended to have a contingency. Besides a quote is a quote, its not a fixed price contract unless that is what you agreed.

It is a mine field but the builders have now walked off the job and im left with a complete wreck of a house. which im meant to move into next week.
It was immaculate when they came in 4 days ago and now 7 rooms have been compromised, I've got 3 brand new ruin carpets, ripped carpet, broken windows, destroyed decoration in room that shoudlnt have been touched , floor boards unsecured upstairs, no ceiling in part of lounge and they threatened my girlfriend yesterday. I'm absolutely gutted and to top it that wanted a big wad as they left, which i didnt part with. the little faith i had in these trades people has vanished.

This though is completely unacceptable. Get rid and get another builder.

[monkeyboy69]

well ive had the official word from trading standards and there are 2 issues here

1) the full work has to be done by the orignal builders for the original quote if it is a written quote and not an estimate. This is regardless of whether the job has changed partway through, the issue does not lie with the customer.

I now have the option to get 3 quotes from more firms and whatever the price is to finish the job, the difference between that and what the original quote is, is the amount the original builders get.

e.g original quote £1000, its now going to cost £950 to finish the job, £50 is to be paid to the original firm. I'm still considerably out of pocket due to the damage theyve done but i would have to take civil action if I wanted to recoup those losses.

2) If the original quote was presented to me on my premises unless the orignal quote had a 7 day cooling off period clearly stated on it, then the builder cannot demand any money as the contract is null and void.

I was also advised to log the matter with the police any case of any repocussions.

All i want is my cinema room

[Da_Rude_Baboon]

I stand corrected then.

I hope you get a speedy soloution to all of this. I had issues with a cowboy tiler ruining my bathroom and had to take a simialr set of actions to yourself. It really puts you off doing any work again.

Good luck, stand firm and dont let the b*****ds get away with it.

[albriscoe]

The problem you have here now is the fact that any new builder could see pound signs in front of his eyes knowing that you are now a little desparate.

Tread carefully my friend, have you and the original builder had words with each other to make him walk out.

Mind you with his attitude towards the missus I wouldn`t have in back in for free

good luck with it all and keep us posted Al

[monkeyboy69]

In the begining when we moved in it looked like this, quite pleasant perhaps, well my mum liked it but it wasnt to my choosing

you can see my dilemma ....no ?

well in my opinion that chimney and surround just has to go

[monkeyboy69]

I wanted to have the setup to the right on the chimney breast but first problem there werent many socket and I wanted network access to in that corner. Also wanted to get rid of that bloody chimney which has become the bane of my life lately


but first

Time to strip the paper

[monkeyboy69]

walllpaper gone and you can see Jacks efforts in the corner

and here it is closer

6 double sockets with 3 of them being on 1 insolation switich

[monkeyboy69]

Then things started to go wrong, here are the builders are they had 1 whack at it. Note how the carpet we wanted relaid was left in the room, we asked for it to be moved inside after it was thrown on the garden beds and it was raining

[monkeyboy69]

and this is how they left my house when they asked me to stump up between 1400 to 2700 and the origianl amount to finish the job and i refused

oh and they wanted their accros back straight away

1 slight issue they forgot to mention and which i came home to 1 day was they'd actually gone through the whole back wall into the hallway

A sort of minor issue to them but thats another room i didn't think i needed decorating til now, well a lack of a wall tends to do that but again they claimed nothing to do with them, but im sure i never put a kango through it

[monkeyboy69]

so i had a new set of plans drawn up and passed by planning inspectors and got a local guy in to work to plan. In the space of about 6 hours he had the remains of the chimney down, cleaned up and started erecting a structure to suport the RSJ overhead and the bottom of the chimney

dont know if you can see this but where the points were put in to the far right jack came back and put the network ports in which I've wire to a 16 port swtich in the loft to distribute around the house

... more to follow

[shodan]

Best of luck with this mate, look forward to more updates. Really sorry to hear about your cowboy builders!!! Horrible experience!