[Ted White]

Is Green Glue commonly used here? I don't see it referenced much. Not sure if it's a price or availability issue.

For that matter is Maxiboard, standard double plasterboard, resilient clips, etc. used?

Thanks

[KhalJimbo]

Green as in ozone friendly or green as in colour? When it comes to things like glue I prefer to use the manufactured chemical kind as I feel it works better you also get a nice buzz in the room

[Ted White]

OK so Jim would prefer some solvent to be added for the work buzz. Got it.

Green is the color and nearly zero VOC, to answer that question.

I'm not sugesting people use Green Glue, rather I'm wondering IF people use it

Thanks

[Da_Rude_Baboon]

Ted is Green Glue used for sound proofing dry wall? I have heard it mentioned and used several times in the forum.

[Ted White]

Green Glue and the other items I mentioned are all used for soundproofing, yes.

I'm curious what materials and methods are commonly used in the UK

[andicapped]

no green glue used in my room (couldn't afford it), i've still double plasterboarded 12.5mm each sheet and insulated.

[Ted White]

OK so you used Mass as primary isolation method. Curious if the walls are standard timbre framing + insulation?

[Brien]

"OK so you used Mass as primary isolation method."

Primary seems, what is it, like there are other methods? Mass is required to contain sound, no other options exist. Maybe a vacuum.

Green glue isn't mass. It is, as you already know, a visco-elastic product designed to damp sheetrock. If I were to hazard a guess, one of the main reasons that this is not a component of sound isolation builds in the UK is that, for the most part, they build with concrete, stone, brick and heavy materials that far surpass a sheetrock type residential wall of a home theater.

For the most part,

Brien

[deansocial]

i imagine it don't get used an awful lot as it is redicoulously expensive at £15 a tube

[andicapped]

my room is a "room inside a room" i have created a box inside my attached garage so the internal stud walls dont touch the external brick. from the inside out it goes,

plasterboard--plasterboard--wooden stud framing-- filled with insulation (very very dense rock wool) -- 2-3inch air gap---brick wall.

sound can't be heard in the house or outside even at very high volume, something i was very concerned about. i dont know how much difference green glue ould have made to this but i thought GG was designed not for soundproofing in the sense of sound escaping but to contain sound in the room so it's not lost on the fexability of the walls.

maybe i'm wrong

[Ted White]

Originally Posted by Brien

"OK so you used Mass as primary isolation method."

Primary seems, what is it, like there are other methods? Mass is required to contain sound, no other options exist. Maybe a vacuum.

That's not quite right. Other obtions certainly exist

Green glue isn't mass. It is, as you already know, a visco-elastic product designed to damp sheetrock. If I were to hazard a guess, one of the main reasons that this is not a component of sound isolation builds in the UK is that, for the most part, they build with concrete, stone, brick and heavy materials that far surpass a sheetrock type residential wall of a home theater.

For the most part,

Brien

Thanks for the refresher. Mass is a component, but only 1 of 4 components. So yes there are 3 other highly advised components: The 4 Elements of Room Construction


Reliance on only 1 of the 4 will limit performance.



Quote Deansocial: "i imagine it don't get used an awful lot as it is redicoulously expensive at £15 a tube".

Wow, I agree. It sells for half of that in the States.



Quote andicapped:

"my room is a "room inside a room"" OK then you also used decoupling in addition to mass. A significant move beyond mass alone.

"...filled with insulation (very very dense rock wool) -- 2-3inch air gap-" OK then you also used absorption.

That's what I was originally getting at. You would have deployed Decoupling, Mass and Absorption in your build. Nice job.

[Ted White]

Originally Posted by andicapped

I dont know how much difference green glue would have made to this but I thought GG was designed not for soundproofing in the sense of sound escaping but to contain sound in the room so it's not lost on the flexability of the walls.

maybe i'm wrong

Damping materials lower the conduction of vibration in building materials. Properly installed, they are a component of a larger soundproofing plan. Any of these Elements will address vibration that has entered a wall or ceiling and is racing to other building components (like the wall of your home).

[Brien]

"Reliance on only 1 of the 4 will limit performance."

Agreed, but that was not your statement.

Just for fun....

I can isolate sound with distance. But this is not as feasible anymore as it may have once been, due to the swelling global population. My theater music can be heard outside at 100dB from 1 meter away. In order to drop the SPL to the acceptable noise ordinance level of 75a, the distance required would be 19 meters from the source to the property border, to reduce this 100Db level to a lawful 75dB.

But that isn't really controlling sound. That is more sound controlling you

I looked at your website(I knew it was coming) and I still stand behind what I said. Mass is the the only thing that will isolate sound.

If I have a 15cm (6 inch) thick concrete wall enclosure with floor and ceiling of the same thickness, the sound levels can be reduced, contained and isolated.

No damping required.
No decoupling required.
No absorption required.

I do agree that these components are useful as a means to achieve a goal but if the distance factor cannot be achieved, then mass will be the only other item that can be used to sound proof a home theater.

[Ted White]

I don't wish to argue semantics, but mass is one component of 4 available. It's a function of how the 4 are deployed.

Given dramatic mass, you would not need decoupling, damping and absorption.

Given dramatic damping you would not need the other 3 elements.

Given dramatic absorption you would not need the other 3 elements.

But the real world does not generally allow a tremendously large application of only one element due to practicality and cost. If you were to review the construction of very high performance facilities, you would find that most deploy at least 3 of the 4 elements in some fashion. Just like andicapped did. He used 3 of the 4.

[dUnKle]

Originally Posted by andicapped

my room is a "room inside a room" i have created a box inside my attached garage so the internal stud walls dont touch the external brick. from the inside out it goes,

plasterboard--plasterboard--wooden stud framing-- filled with insulation (very very dense rock wool) -- 2-3inch air gap---brick wall.

sound can't be heard in the house or outside even at very high volume, something i was very concerned about. i dont know how much difference green glue ould have made to this but i thought GG was designed not for soundproofing in the sense of sound escaping but to contain sound in the room so it's not lost on the fexability of the walls.

maybe i'm wrong

I am in process of clearing out my garage ready for construction of HC room and was thinking of the "room within a room" thing

Can you clarify how it is done, is it

Brick Wall of Garage
Plaster Board attached to that
Wooden Frame atached to that
Rock Wool compacted into the above frame
Plaster board attached ontop of above ?

[Ted White]

Dunkle, did you ever get your questions answered?

[amioa]

£15 a tube? its cheaper than that im sure.

[simonprr]

Great thread Ted, I like this topic

So what really is "green glue"?! I came across it the other day somehow. Is it very similar to mastic? That drys into a rubber like, flexible state. Or better still why not use rubber mats and sandwich them inbetween sheets of plasterboard.... wouldn't both the options be the same? Or is there something else "special" about GG?

Andicapped, I love the room you have created in your garage. However, is it really that sound proof? Do you have a sub in there? I would be amazed if you didn't hear any bass from outside. Surely that would just go into the floor, then into the ground and outside or into other structures. I assume the studs sit on the concrete of the garage floor?

I have a detached house (for this very reason) and my neighbours have both told me they can hear bass when I have it up loud. Ok, I have 100W subs and up loud, but they are nothing compared to what some people have on this forum! One neighbour even said he can just about hear it when I have it on upstairs! So that means it's travelling across my upstairs floor, downstairs, then through the cavity wall (with insulation inside) then through the garage, into and through his outside wall.... amazing really!

[Ted White]

Originally Posted by simonprr

Great thread Ted, I like this topic

So what really is "green glue"?! I came across it the other day somehow. Is it very similar to mastic? That drys into a rubber like, flexible state. Or better still why not use rubber mats and sandwich them inbetween sheets of plasterboard.... wouldn't both the options be the same? Or is there something else "special" about GG?

Green Glue and other similar products are damping materials. In this case, this type of damping material is used between sheets of plasterboard or plywood.

As a sound wave passes through the plasterboard it causes the board to oscillate. This is how sound vibration is propagated. The wall is a giant diaphram, like the surface of a driver in your loudspeaker.

Damping materials function by staying viscous and flexible and when stretched (sheared) during the oscillation, they convert this kinetic energy to thermal energy. The waveform is significantly reduced and far smaller soundwave is re-created on the other side. We refer to this as damping. We are damping the actual vibration passing through the plasterboard as a bending wave.

This will typically result in an averaged 10db drop in the system when measured across a broad frequency spectrum.

If you saw a dried piece of damping material, you would certainly remark as to the stickiness and stretchiness, even though dry. This unique behavior is much different from construction adhesives, silicone, and latex sealants. This is why these other materials fail miserably at damping.

Mass Loaded Vinyl (Sheet Blok, Acoustiblock, MLV, etc) are simply heavy materials. They are themselves somewhat damped but they do not efficiently damp the board they are attached to. So as sound isolation material, they are simply less efficient. They work well, but are not true damping materials.

[Ste7en]

I really wanted to use it on all of the seams and behind skirting etc. in my garage conversion (http://www.avforums.com/forums/home-...onversion.html) but I couldn't be arsed to double-board with plasterboard and stagger the joins etc.

Shame really

[Ted White]

The most competent soundproofing protocol is going to include as many of the 4 elements of isolation as practical:

Mass, Decoupling, Absorption and Damping

They are not always practical or easy, that's for sure.

[simonprr]

Originally Posted by Ted White

Green Glue and other similar products are damping materials. In this case, this type of damping material is used between sheets of plasterboard or plywood.

As a sound wave passes through the plasterboard it causes the board to oscillate. This is how sound vibration is propagated. The wall is a giant diaphram, like the surface of a driver in your loudspeaker.

Ok, I should have mentioned, my walls (from inside to out) are plasterboard dot and dab >> cemet blockwork wall >> cavity filled with insulation >> outside brickwork wall.

Is my wall really acting as a diaphram?!! It's heavy and must have great mass!

Originally Posted by Ted White

Damping materials function by staying viscous and flexible and when stretched (sheared) during the oscillation, they convert this kinetic energy to thermal energy. The waveform is significantly reduced and far smaller soundwave is re-created on the other side. We refer to this as damping. We are damping the actual vibration passing through the plasterboard as a bending wave.

This will typically result in an averaged 10db drop in the system when measured across a broad frequency spectrum.

If you saw a dried piece of damping material, you would certainly remark as to the stickiness and stretchiness, even though dry. This unique behavior is much different from construction adhesives, silicone, and latex sealants. This is why these other materials fail miserably at damping.

Yes but mastic stays flexible too, so why wouldn't this work in the same way? Also, realistically how much thermal energy are we talking about? Enough to raise the temperature of the room by a few C?

Originally Posted by Ted White

Mass Loaded Vinyl (Sheet Blok, Acoustiblock, MLV, etc) are simply heavy materials. They are themselves somewhat damped but they do not efficiently damp the board they are attached to. So as sound isolation material, they are simply less efficient. They work well, but are not true damping materials.

Sorry, I'm confused! How come they don't work as well?

I would interested to hear your thoughts about my bass issue and how it manages to get through so much distance and mass....

[Ted White]

Originally Posted by simonprr

Ok, I should have mentioned, my walls (from inside to out) are plasterboard dot and dab >> cermet blockwork wall >> cavity filled with insulation >> outside brickwork wall.

Is my wall really acting as a diaphragm?!! It's heavy and must have great mass!

Diaphragm, yes. If block walls stopped low frequencies, everyone would use them. The fact is that adding sufficient mass do deal with 20-80Hz sound is impractical.

Mass, yes. Low frequency stopping ability: depends on the frequency.

To deal with lower frequencies, you would need to decouple the plasterboard from that block wall. Introduce an air cavity to achieve the classic mass-air-mass system. I'm abbreviating the discussion so as not to praddle on.

Originally Posted by simonprr

Yes but mastic stays flexible too, so why wouldn't this work in the same way?

Dried damping material is very gummy. If we invent a flexibibility scale for the sake of this thread, let's say that damping materials are a 2 out of 10. Silicone would be a 5.

Additionally, there is a balance of viscosity and elasticity. If the physical parameters deviate much from optimal, the system is too inefficient and effective damping does not occur. Silicone is way too elastic. This is why you never see anyone use it despite the fact that it's been around for decades.

Originally Posted by simonprr

Also, realistically how much thermal energy are we talking about? Enough to raise the temperature of the room by a few C?

No. You won't measure a difference. It takes too much energy to raise the temp of all that air. But energy can ne neither created nor destroyed. It can only be transformed. In this case, kinetic to thermal.

Sorry, I'm confused! How come they don't work as well?

I would interested to hear your thoughts about my bass issue and how it manages to get through so much distance and mass.... [/QUOTE]


Regarding Mass Loaded Vinyls, they are simply heavy. Plasterboard is heavy, plywood, cement, etc all are heavy but do not damp. There is no bond between the MLV and the plasterboard. It is also very, very stiff and inflexible, so even if bonded, it will not shear. This is required for efficient damping.

By the way, all of these materials have been thoroughly tested at independent acoustic labs and official reports are online in many locations.

[simonprr]

Originally Posted by Ted White

Diaphragm, yes. If block walls stopped low frequencies, everyone would use them. The fact is that adding sufficient mass do deal with 20-80Hz sound is impractical.

Mass, yes. Low frequency stopping ability: depends on the frequency.

To deal with lower frequencies, you would need to decouple the plasterboard from that block wall. Introduce an air cavity to achieve the classic mass-air-mass system. I'm abbreviating the discussion so as not to praddle on.

Ok, I see what you mean now. Although I do have the "classic" mass air mass system kind of, with the cavity wall around the whole house. Obviously this does help, but some still leaks through or is it that the cavity is just not large enough?

I thought my issue was more to do with the floor/foundations....but do you think it's still the walls?

If I could get enough mass it would stop most low frequency wouldn't it? ie. If I had a detached house with a cellar, so therefore ground/earth all around it (as well as walls) this would be considerably better surely?

Dried damping material is very gummy. If we invent a flexibibility scale for the sake of this thread, let's say that damping materials are a 2 out of 10. Silicone would be a 5.

Additionally, there is a balance of viscosity and elasticity. If the physical parameters deviate much from optimal, the system is too inefficient and effective damping does not occur. Silicone is way too elastic. This is why you never see anyone use it despite the fact that it's been around for decades.

Ok thanks for that understood now

Regarding Mass Loaded Vinyls, they are simply heavy. Plasterboard is heavy, plywood, cement, etc all are heavy but do not damp. There is no bond between the MLV and the plasterboard. It is also very, very stiff and inflexible, so even if bonded, it will not shear. This is required for efficient damping.

By the way, all of these materials have been thoroughly tested at independent acoustic labs and official reports are online in many locations.

What do you mean by "shear"? Do you mean flex?

Btw, if I de-coupled one wall, ie the side wall of the house which my neighbours house is next to, would this be sufficient? Or would all walls need to be treated?

Sorry for all the q's. Thanks for the answers/help!

[Pulsar]

Hi,

To go back to the original question, I will shortly be using green glue in my loft conversion. As you can imagine, I couldn't really build block walls in my loft room as the 'walls' are actually the roof of the house and over half of the area is angled at roughly 45 degrees. My main concern is stopping outside sound coming in to the room with the secondary concern being stopping sound escaping the room.

I'll be laminating 2 sheets of 12mm plasterboard and applying somewhere around 1.2 tubes of glue per 6'x4' board. This will be a little hard to judge as I haven't got too many places where I have a whole board put up due to the construction of the room.

My understanding from reading around is that it takes up to a month for the glue to become fully effective (acoustically) but I'll do my best to remember to report back on my thoughts.

As an aside, my brother in law works for bostik and gets me all glues/sealants free of charge. From the research I did I felt that any of their products would have been compromised for my project and I wasn't prepared to risk it given the effort involved in putting all those boards up. It was a little painful paying for glue after being used to getting it for nowt, I just hope it was the right decision.

Cheers

Rob

[simonprr]

Originally Posted by Pulsar

Hi,

To go back to the original question, I will shortly be using green glue in my loft conversion. As you can imagine, I couldn't really build block walls in my loft room as the 'walls' are actually the roof of the house and over half of the area is angled at roughly 45 degrees. My main concern is stopping outside sound coming in to the room with the secondary concern being stopping sound escaping the room.

I'll be laminating 2 sheets of 12mm plasterboard and applying somewhere around 1.2 tubes of glue per 6'x4' board. This will be a little hard to judge as I haven't got too many places where I have a whole board put up due to the construction of the room.

My understanding from reading around is that it takes up to a month for the glue to become fully effective (acoustically) but I'll do my best to remember to report back on my thoughts.

As an aside, my brother in law works for bostik and gets me all glues/sealants free of charge. From the research I did I felt that any of their products would have been compromised for my project and I wasn't prepared to risk it given the effort involved in putting all those boards up. It was a little painful paying for glue after being used to getting it for nowt, I just hope it was the right decision.

Cheers

Rob

Cool....where did you get it and how much did it cost? I would think that you would also have all the room between the roof joists to fill with insulation that would help a lot. I would be concerned when applying the GG, how do you make sure you put enough on and that it doesn't leave gaps and is spread evenly?

[Neil Davidson]

I believe that STone Audio have Green Glue on their website.

[Ted White]

Originally Posted by simonprr

Ok, I see what you mean now. Although I do have the "classic" mass air mass system kind of, with the cavity wall around the whole house. Obviously this does help, but some still leaks through or is it that the cavity is just not large enough?

The wall is extraordinarily conductive and the air cavities are so small as to be not useful. It's not condidered a mass-air-mass system in industry terms.

Originally Posted by simonprr

I thought my issue was more to do with the floor/foundations....but do you think it's still the walls?

If I could get enough mass it would stop most low frequency wouldn't it? ie. If I had a detached house with a cellar, so therefore ground/earth all around it (as well as walls) this would be considerably better surely?

If you want sound isolation, you're going to have to treat all surfaces. The concrete slab floor isn't an issue.

Originally Posted by simonprr

What do you mean by "shear"? Do you mean flex?

Sort of. More like one panel sliding against the next, stretching the damping material

Originally Posted by simonprr

Btw, if I de-coupled one wall, ie the side wall of the house which my neighbours house is next to, would this be sufficient? Or would all walls need to be treated?

You would need to treat all sides. You have airborne sound leaving the three walls not attached to the house. You also have vibration entering the framing materials and conducting to the main house.

[Ted White]

Originally Posted by simonprr

I would be concerned when applying the GG, how do you make sure you put enough on and that it doesn't leave gaps and is spread evenly?

The good thing about damping material is that you really can't screw it up. Have a target amount in mind on a board and go. A little too much or too little (within reason) and your fine.

You will have many gaps, voids and un-even areas. This is not an issue either. We are not looking for a completely covered surface. You want enough damping material to react to the shear force is all. Damping materials are not blocking, we are simply robbing the system of energy

[Pulsar]

Originally Posted by simonprr

Cool....where did you get it and how much did it cost? I would think that you would also have all the room between the roof joists to fill with insulation that would help a lot. I would be concerned when applying the GG, how do you make sure you put enough on and that it doesn't leave gaps and is spread evenly?

A friend got mine for me, but Neil is correct that Stone Audio do stock it.

I actually unpacked my first tube last night as I think I'll be ready to use it this weekend. The tubes are bigger than the standard caulk/glue cartridges you get in the UK - luckily I ordered a gun with mine.

Cheers

Rob