[Macron]

Distaster has struck!

My poor little home cinema (Macron's First (Modest) Home Cinema) in my nice new flat which I have been working on for months and spent all my money on is flooded!

Turns out theres loads of holes in the roof of the flats.

The worste part is as we have a leasehold agreement then this whole mess is the responsibility of the property company, and they don't give a damn.

They say the best they can do is send someone out sometime next week, and in the meantime we have to sit here and watch all our hard work get ruined.

I've complained to the maintenance company, directors of the property company (a bunch of senile, bitter old gits) the surveyors, estate agent, local council.

Basically nobody wants to know.

The property company have been terrible about it, they reckon the insurance should cover everything but its still heartbreaking to watch all your hard work get destroyed and then have to sit for several days watching it get worse whilst nobody else cares.

Yesterday I basically argued with people from 9am until 9pm, the property company who are supposed to look after these things are happy to sit there and watch it get worse and not do a single thing about it and then wait for the insurance to clean it all up.

Anyone who has any advice in this area it would be very much appreciated right now.

[Philius]

Man that sure sucks

My advice is the press, go to your local rag and tell them the story, nothing gets them going more than a juicy tale where they can have a pop at the local council or businesses. It happened to a friend of mine who lived on a private housing association, he had rats. Tried to get them to sort it for over 4 weeks in the end he gave the local paper a call, they didn't even print the story but they phoned the housing association and told them they was going to. He had an exterminator round that afternoon.

[Anastie]

Just read your thread it looked like a great setup and so sorry to hear your latest news.

The only advice is regarding the insurance, keep pressing them. I had a flood in December and the work was not started until April!!! I soon realised that by making frequent, daily calls I eventually got what I wanted. As far as the people on the other end of the phone were concerned dealing with my claim. I was just another caller

Is it structural damage or did your kit get damaged? I ask as many companies have a limit on claims value.

If the roof is leaking to minimise damage get some builders plastic laid in the loft.

[Philius]

Oh and if you can afford it I would speak with a solicitor and get them to write a strong letter to the housing association/property management company explaining that you will be seeking full compensation for all your kit/time spent/costs and materials from them.

[banners]

Try if you can to channel the water away. It sounds obvious, but in the face of panic and heartache the mind can do strange things.

A chap I used to work with had a similar problem with a flat roof that suddenly sprang leaks, his solution was to drawing pin string to the ceiling and dangle it in to buckets. The builder thought it was hilarious!

I had a leak across a ply-board sheet in the roof @ work. I mounted a hook in the wall drilled a hole in some guttering, mounted that to the hook and secured the other end and again tried some string to guide the water and stop the constant dripping.

Some hassle involved but you can try to help the situation. It should in my mind help with the insurance as you've tried to help prevent damage, although don't qoute me on that!

Good luck

Steve

[jro7563]

Really sorry to hear that, i was following your progress as this was looking to be a good one, have to agree with skars regarding going to the press, it wont undo whats been done, but it will give the property company some bad press which im sure they wont like but sound like they deserve and just might get them to put there arse into gear.

Best of luck.

[Macron]

Cheers guys. I've put som plastic sheeting in the loft which is catching all the water but its still a real mess.

We're just hoping the whole ceiling won't need to be re done but we won't know till someone finally comes to look at it.

Don't suppose (clutching at straws) there's anyone here who's a solicitor who's feeling helpful or even anyone who works for a newspaper?

[MasterYoda]

hope it all works out. Had a flat roof leak last winter and it was a big stress until fixed. Luckily it didn't do any long term damage once it dried out. Nothing a bit of paint didn't fix anyway.

[jro7563]

Had a word with the wife who works in housing (booooo) and she said, the structure/fabric of the property is 100% the responsibility of the landlord/property company/lease holder, its there responsibility to make sure the property (amongst other things) is water tight, her advice is, to seek the help of your local counciler to kick up a stink, she also said that getting in touch with the local paper (a favourite tactic of her tenants as this normaly gets them what they want) normaly helps the property company get there finger out and fullfill there obligation.

[enablerbro1]

I can't imagine that the press would be all that interested to be honest. Why would they? If it was a little old lady or small children with kittens but a young couple on their todd?

Just checked out your thread Macron, that's a serious amount of hard work undone by possible neglect on the part of the people who own the freehold to the property. The matter should now be down to the freeholders building insurers putting things right. I hope all your kit is well out of it and presume the insurers will get people in to dry out the damage and, once dry, put things right. I also hope you hadn't got past the lining stage for papering, I hate papering and if I'd down that lot and had it all ruined I'd be seething. Do you have home insurance because it might be worth passing everything on to them to chase up with those responsible.

[imjay]

Being in the U.S. I can't imagine what options are available under law in U.K.

Have you thought of the Health Department? How old is the structure? Is it possible built with asbestos laced materials?

Water intrusion as described can cause breakdown of materials possibly releasing things not healthy for humans.

Once our son was renting a small bungalow and the room suffered a major leak causing a partial collapse of roofing/construction material in the kitchen area and the owner wasn't moving very fast to do anything about it.

I called in the building authorities and threatened the public health authorities due to possible chemical and asbestos contamination and suddenly the owner thought it best to get that roof repaired very quickly.

Use your imagination to consider all the different regulatory authorities that might have jurisdiction due to the water intrusion - plus where we live our State has a Landlord and Tenant law that clearly defines landlord responsibility for maintaining a safe and healthy property for his tenants with serious consequences for owners/managers that fail to keep their properties up to that code and standard.
goodluck

[Shockabuku]

What a nightmare, I feel for you. We lost a load of stuff in the floods last year, and in fact my wife & daughter were even stranded on the top floor, requiring rescuing by firemen in boats, whilst I was stuck in Geneva airport with a cancelled flight . Anyway, it might seem like a long haul, but with luck it will all get put right, just hassle the relevant people constantly, as it seems to be the noisy people who get sorted first in my experience. Best of luck.

[NewMan]

Originally Posted by Macron

...or even anyone who works for a newspaper?

Long shot, but whereabouts are you (PM me if you don't want to say in public). I know the editor of my local rag pretty well as he drinks in my local...

[Macron]

Originally Posted by NewMan

Long shot, but whereabouts are you (PM me if you don't want to say in public). I know the editor of my local rag pretty well as he drinks in my local...

I live in Harrogate.

Thanks for all the nice comments guys.

[NewMan]

Argh, figured it'd be a long-shot.

Sorry mate, 'twas a nice setup. It's small consolation, but at least the kit'll be replaced - at least you had pictures of it all, that should help no end with the insurance claim.

I reckon going to the local rag is still a good idea, check their website, there should be a contact email address.

[Macron]

Cheers anyway.

Luckily most of the kit is ok as it wasn't installed yet. I'm yet to see if the speakers will need replacing and what's going to happen to the ceiling in general. Worst case is the lighting and speakers have to come down while the ceiling is sorted.

Then there's leaks in other rooms too so have to wait and see how much damage has been done.

[Dr Force]

What a horrible position to be in, you have my sympathy.

I hope you get it sorted PDQ so you can get back to normal living but the whole episode is totally unacceptable.

My first step would be to find out the development director/Snr manager and write them a letter of complaint laying out what your course of action is likely to take until the episode is corrected to your satisfaction.

1)threaten to go to the local paper and news

2)threaten to then get a solicitor involved

3)threaten to write to your local MP

Good luck and I hope you are back on track soon

[Macron]

OK guys could really use your opinions / advice with this.

I've been doing some digging as we're still getting nowhere, no sign of any builders, nobody will call us back and on top of all this its raining heavily right now!

Here is what I have found out. Firstly the "company" that is supposed to be responsible for all this is called "Swanston Property (Harrogate) Limited Company Reg 01662221. I've paid to download a load of official company documents from the companies house website and have discovered that this company has 3 directors, all of which are OAP's who live in the same blocks of flats to us. I have called them all and none of them will offer any kind of help and have in fact been very rude to us in some cases.

The official company registered address is in York. This address is registered to a company called White Rose Property. I have called them and they will also not help me, they say they work FOR the directors of Swanston and will only take orders from them.

Now the plot thickens. I have letters from "Swanson Property" regarding other issues and there are also signs up around the building for the residents (such as notices to remind them where to put their rubbish etc...) Now these letters and notices all state the company reg as 01662223 and the registered address as 18 Coppice Gate Harrogate. I've checked with companies house and this reg number is not even valid, and the address given is not listed to any companies at all!

Now why would they be doing this? Who is actually responsible and who can I complain to?

We have a leashold agreement which means we own the flat but pay ground rent to Swanston.

[KUBBY]

Citizens advice is free.they will have had experience of this and may well put you onto a suitably qualified solicitor.Many of those give their first hour of advice free and could offer (dependant upon your circumstances)a reduced price letter.
It seems to me that these people have set up a holding company,perhaps not following the rules of doing so,with an eye to getting an income with as little work as possible.
definately time to rattle them,I suggest.


Good Luck

KH

[jro7563]

Originally Posted by Macron

OK guys could really use your opinions / advice with this.

I've been doing some digging as we're still getting nowhere, no sign of any builders, nobody will call us back and on top of all this its raining heavily right now!

Here is what I have found out. Firstly the "company" that is supposed to be responsible for all this is called "Swanston Property (Harrogate) Limited Company Reg 01662221. I've paid to download a load of official company documents from the companies house website and have discovered that this company has 3 directors, all of which are OAP's who live in the same blocks of flats to us. I have called them all and none of them will offer any kind of help and have in fact been very rude to us in some cases.

The official company registered address is in York. This address is registered to a company called White Rose Property. I have called them and they will also not help me, they say they work FOR the directors of Swanston and will only take orders from them.

Now the plot thickens. I have letters from "Swanson Property" regarding other issues and there are also signs up around the building for the residents (such as notices to remind them where to put their rubbish etc...) Now these letters and notices all state the company reg as 01662223 and the registered address as 18 Coppice Gate Harrogate. I've checked with companies house and this reg number is not even valid, and the address given is not listed to any companies at all!

Now why would they be doing this? Who is actually responsible and who can I complain to?

We have a leashold agreement which means we own the flat but pay ground rent to Swanston.

Just cut and pasted this to the wife and asked if she thought they were dodgy, heres her reply:-

It does if you ask me. I would confront them and ask them about the other registered number and then tell them it’s not registered as they have checked with companies house and that they are now going to CAB/ Trading standards about it. As they pay a management fee Trading Standards would be very interested to hear I would have thought. Or even Watchdog, that normally scares people

[Macron]

Originally Posted by jro7563

Just cut and pasted this to the wife and asked if she thought they were dodgy, heres her reply:-

It does if you ask me. I would confront them and ask them about the other registered number and then tell them it’s not registered as they have checked with companies house and that they are now going to CAB/ Trading standards about it. As they pay a management fee Trading Standards would be very interested to hear I would have thought. Or even Watchdog, that normally scares people

Thanks so much for that. What exactly does your wife do?

Our local CAB are out of the question, the Harrogate CAB is run by about 3 old ladies who don't know anything and I have tried to contact them many times in the past, they have an advice line which they NEVER answer and if you try to make an appointment it has to be around 4 weeks in advance and when you do get to see them they never seem to help.

Just found this site http://www.lease-advice.org/main.htm which gives specific advice to people with leasehold agreements and it seems to suggest we could try witholding our maintenance payments until things are sorted, which is a good idea.

Meanwhile I am thinking of putting all this in writing along with a threat to report their dodgy company reg numbers and addresses to trading standards and posting the letter through all the director's doors tonight.

Anyone with any further advice? It is much much appreciated.

[jro7563]

She works for a largish private housing trust.

Looks like trading standards might be your best bet, and the press.

[enablerbro1]

OAPs on the fiddle, now that might make a good news story.

[Macron]

Well something's not right is it? You register a company at a specific address and you are given one company reg number. Why on earth would you then go and put another address and number on your documents?

[scatterbug]

My sympathies, your install was great. Frankly, I think you have given the leasing company enough rope. You have rights - enforce them. Having conducted some intelligent investigation I think you should just act upon this, rather than use it as a warning or lever. From what you've written I get the impression they don't give a damn so time to take the initiative.

[Philius]

Originally Posted by Macron

Well something's not right is it? You register a company at a specific address and you are given one company reg number. Why on earth would you then go and put another address and number on your documents?

The company address and trading address could be different, my company is registered to my accountants address but I work from home so have 2 addresses.

Just be carefull before you throw your stones, where I live the residents are all shareholders of a company that owns the lease of the building. They in turn have promoted 3 of the residents to act as directors of the company, who in turn use a property mananegement company to handle the day to day running of the building and collect any monies due from the other shareholders (owners of the propety) this sounds kind of similar to what you have. However if the directors of the company that own your lease are non sympathetic then there isn't a lot you can do except complain to the company that deals with the day to day running of the building or failing that, like I said before go to the press. They might not be interested in the story but they're normally sympathetic and will know the relevant people to call and get the ball moving for you. No company/housing association wants negative press and they should start playing ball.

Hope you get sorted soon

Skars

[sotonjoe]

Originally Posted by Skars

The company address and trading address could be different, my company is registered to my accountants address but I work from home so have 2 addresses.

Just be carefull before you throw your stones, where I live the residents are all shareholders of a company that owns the lease of the building. They in turn have promoted 3 of the residents to act as directors of the company, who in turn use a property mananegement company to handle the day to day running of the building and collect any monies due from the other shareholders (owners of the propety) this sounds kind of similar to what you have. However if the directors of the company that own your lease are non sympathetic then there isn't a lot you can do except complain to the company that deals with the day to day running of the building or failing that, like I said before go to the press. They might not be interested in the story but they're normally sympathetic and will know the relevant people to call and get the ball moving for you. No company/housing association wants negative press and they should start playing ball.

Hope you get sorted soon

Skars

Sensible and informative post. Be firm with them, but make sure you've got all your facts right before you start assuming the worst and making strong allegations.

[MarkP80]

The company address and trading address could be different, my company is registered to my accountants address but I work from home so have 2 addresses.

- and that is fine (mine does too), but that's not what Macron has discovered. In this case, the signs up around the building and correspondence received give a company registration number which does not exist. That, I strongly suspect, is breaking the law.

MarkP

[ShadowTD]

I'm afraid I've got nothing useful to add to this thread apart from my commiserations. Hope this all comes good and you can get back to the project in hand.

[RamonD]

Hi dude,

Skars advice is spot on, the chances are that the freehold is owned in common by all leaseholders and they have appointed 3 directors to manage and act as clients to the management company (property management) who look after all the day to day running including collection of maintenance fees for insurance and service charge (maintenance fee), where this can get complicated is when the property management is looked after by the directors of the residence association, i.e. they don’t outsource but do it in house.

This company will still have to be a registered one separate to the freehold ownership company of which you are a shareholder, hence the share in the freehold that you have, albeit what you actually have is basically a standard leasehold, you benefit from being able to advertise property as having a share in the freehold which people get confused as holding an actual share in the umbrella freehold when in reality all you are is a shareholder in a company. So the differing company registration numbers are not one to overly concern yourself with as this is common practice.

Ok before I go on, you have my deepest sympathies, I have just completed my home cinema and can imagine the pain of unforeseen and frankly unnecessary delays such as this. I owe a lot to these forums as a noob they have helped me achieve AV Nirvana in my home, but always felt that I wasn’t available to offer others advice in the world of AV, this is where I can make a difference, I am a chartered management surveyor and in the early parts of my career I managed these types of properties and have come across this kind of situation many times and can advise on the remedies available to you. I manage an entire estate for a London university at the moment so may be a little rusty.

First of all you need to contact the people you pay your maintenance charges to and get them to get someone out ASAP to ensure the roof is water tight. It is as mentioned correctly before the freeholders responsibility to maintain the external structure, and if it is not water tight they are in breach of their maintenance obligations. However, they will argue that the leak was unforeseen and the result of storm damage and could not reasonably have been foreseen and that the buildings insurance covers for storm damage thus they have not been in breach. At this point if necessary I suggest you insist on an independent expert of a building surveyor which you will pay for to give his opinion as they are not experts. If they do not get some one round to make the roof watertight, you have to allow a reasonable time, I would say that if a contractor is not around in 24 hours, that is reasonable enough, and threaten that you will call them and send the bill to the management company.

Unfortunately, after the roof has been made watertight you are at the mercy of the insurance company. The question of excess always arises and I suggest the excess is paid by the maintenance company, they will insist on you paying. You will be covered for the damage I am sure as the landlords main responsibility to the tenant in a lease is to maintain buildings insurance and most leases make provision for that to be maintained with a company of good repute, and you cant argue with such a blatant breach as not paying the insurance premium. The usual practice is the appointment of a loss adjuster who will take the damage into account and agree on a settlement. They will at that time insist the roof is repaired to a reasonable standard as they wont want to continue to pay the costs of damage. You will get the majority of costs back less the excess, you may want to make a start and get the property repaired and you can instruct a builder, hold on to your receipts and claim back from the insurers, this does not always work in practice and it will be better to wait for the loss adjuster, you will have to wait for the property to dry out anyway before you can make an accurate assessment of the remedial repairs required, it may not be as bad as you think once dried out, I hope not, I really loved those in ceiling speakers, if they are damaged they will of course be covered.

If you want to be proactive, I would suggest get some quotes from reputable builders for the repair in readiness of the instruction of a loss adjuster.

If you want to make a real difference to the way your properties are managed, I suggest you become a director, this will have to be done at the next AGM and you will have a say as to what and how maintenance money collected is spent on. You are well within your rights to make an application to the current directors.

You could go to the press, trading standards, however, but in my experience if the damage was the result of rain, the freeholders are covered as they will always argue that they have no control over the elements, and it will not make the insurers work any faster.

The legal spiel is as so, the landmark case in this regard goes back to the fundamentals of Tort and Negligence, the case of Rylands V Fletcher were Lord Aitkin (or someone going back to basic land law days at Uni) created the “Neighbour” principle. The case was basically a neighbours land was flooded due to the negligence of the neighbour, and the question was that who in common law can be referred to as my neighbour? and I believe it was Lord Aitkin who said “any one you can reasonably foresee will be affected by your actions”

I cant be to specific in your case as im sure you appreciate, but the case for negligence is as so, ask yourself, could they have reasonably forseen and prevented the damage, if the answer is yes, then they are negligent.

Apologies, tried to keep the above as short as possible and hope it helps, I don’t have internet at home and am doing this at work, im here to about 7ish tonight if you need any further help, I hope it all gets sorted for you, the room was looking very impressive.