[sunama]

So 3 months ago I moved into my first property. My intention was always to have a home cinema system in my living room. This would include a big screen tv, hooked up to a 5.1 surround sound system, using predominantly, my pc to output movies/tv shows.

The Problem
On the frst day in the new property I realised that I could hear everything my upstairs neighbours were doing. They have laminate flooring whose impact noise was driving me nuts!

The Solution
I decided that I would need to soundproof the ceilings of 2 rooms:
the living room: to watch movies and make general noise and not annoy my neighbours in the process
the bedroom: a haven to sleep in, without being woken up everyday by my upstairs neighbours.

I also decided that it would be my bedroom that was treated first.

After doing much research, I decided to do the following:

1. remove existing ceiling;
2. friction fit rockwool in between the joists and fill the cavity;
3. cover the entire ceiling with a soundproof membrane;
4. screw in battens, running at right angles to the joists;
5. friction fit another layer of rockwool in between the battens;
6. screw in resilient bars to the battens, at right angles;
7. install a layer of soundboard, screwed in to the resilient bars;
8. install a second layer of soundboard, again, in to the resilient bars, only this time applying greenglue, to form a "sandwich" between the 2 layers of soundboard;
9. the ceiling would then be finished off with a skim of plaster.

Last week, the procedure was carried out to my bedroom ceiling. This thread shows in detail the full procedure. Pictures of the entire process were taken and are shown below, to illustrate each stage. The costs of all the materials will be listed at the end of this report.

The Procedure
First here are some pics of what the ceiling looked like before the procedure.

You can see in the pictures that some wires for the lighting have been run externally. This was done by the electricians who re-wired my home. They ran the wires externally because we knew the ceiling was going to be replaced. Of course, in the new ceiling all the wires would be concealed.

Step 1: remove existing ceiling
After clearing the room, a layer of Tarpaulin was laid down on the carpet. A lot of dust and rubble would be falling on this protective layer.

The ceiling was then removed by using a wrecking bar and hammer. This took the best part of a day.

As you can see, the joists are now clearly visible along with some wires, which are used to power the lights. At this stage there was A LOT of dust and the builders needed to take frequent breaks to get some clean air into their lungs.

Step 2: remove all the rubble
Below is a picture showing the amount of mess that was created.

It took the rest of the day to bag up all the rubble and clear the room ready to install the ceiling.

Step 3: Friction fit a layer of Rockwool

Below is a picture of the Rockwool that was used to fill the cavity in between the joists. This was 130mm thick, tissue faced and was 100kg per cubic metre, in density.

The rockwool was cut into pieces using an ordinary saw and then friction fitted in between the joists. Below is an image of some of the rockwool fitted into place.

Below is an image of the entire ceiling, whose space between the joists have been filled with rockwool. At this point the floorboards above were no longer be visible. Every nook and cranny was filled with rockwool.

Step 4: Cover the entire ceiling with soundproof membrane
Let me introduce you to the sound proof membrane that was used to assist in preventing sound from travelling between my room and the one above.

And here is what's written on the label:

For reference, the membrane used was extremely heavy: weighing in at 6kg/square metre. It had a "putty" type feel to it. It was easy to tear. Think of plasticine, only flattened out to 3mm and that is what the consistency of this membrane was. It was very difficult to work with.

Here is what the membrane looks like when its been rolled out:

Using scissors, the membrane was cut into small managable pieces and tacked onto the joists. This was a very difficult process as the weight of the membrane would bring it down, as soon as any support that was holding up the membrane was removed. Hence, many tacks had to be used. The picture below shows this:

Eventually, we managed to get the membrane tacked up to the ceiling, covering the entire ceiling with no gaps. The picture below shows this:

Step 5: Screw battens into the joists, at right angles
Here is a picture of the battens that were going to be used. They were 50mm x 50mm in size.

70mm screws were used to attach the battens to the joists. They were positioned with 600mm gaps in between. The battens also had the job of holding the membrane in place. The picture below shows this:

[u]Step 6: Friction fit rockwool in between the battens and Screw Resilient Bars into the battens, at right angles[/]

Below is a picture of the rockwool that was used. This was 50mm in thickness and 140kg/cubic metre in density. Also shown below is the label on the rockwool pack:

Below is a picture of the resilent bars that were used. There were 3m in length and were the mechanism by which the soundboard would be decoupled from the joists:

And here is an image of them partially installed, screwed into the battens, using 42mm drywall screws. They are spaced out 400mm apart, centre to centre. In between the battens is the rockwool, friction fitted. The resilient bars also have the job of holding the rockwool in place.

And another...

[sunama]

And here we have the finished article (at this stage). The entire ceiling covered with battens, resilient bars and a layer of dense rockwool.

The ceiling is looking nice and flat, ready to have the soundboard fitted.

Step 7: Install a layer of soundboard, screwed into the resilient bars
Here is a picture of the soundboards that were used:

For reference, each board is 1.2m x 2.4m (4' x 8'). It is made by Knauff, is 12.5mm thick and is called Soundshield. It is of considerable weight and simply moving each board from my driveway, into the hallway was a major effort. Ideally, you need 2 people to lift each sheet of soundboard so as not to damage it.

Below is a picture of the first layer going up:

And here is a picture of the first layer fully installed.

Ideally, each board needs 2 or 3 people to lift it into place and screw it in. The screws used were 25mm drywall screws and were driven into the resilient bars only. It was important that the screws were not screwed into the battens - if they did, this would short circuit the decoupling mechanism. The entire weight of the soundboard was therefore supported by the resilient bars.

In between each sheet of soundboard, you can see a white substance smeared. This is acoustic sealant and is designed to prevent noise from coming through the gaps. I used 2 types of acoustic sealant, images of which are shown below:

Acoustic sealant was also used around the edges of the soundboard, where the board meets the wall. At no point did the soundboard touch the walls. This ensured that vibrations from the joists did not carry down the walls and into the soundboards.

Step 8: Install the second layer of soundboard, with a layer of Green Glue
After the 1st layer of soundboard went up, we needed to put up the 2nd layer of soundboard, with a layer of Green Glue in between. But first let me show you some pictures of Green Glue as it was delivered/packaged:

And a picture of the whole Green Glue bottle:

We created the Green Glue sandwich by spreading the green glue on each sheet of soundboard, that was to become the 2nd layer. 2 bottles of Green Glue per soundboard were used. Throughout the process, including the use of the sealants, a large sealant gun was used that is capable of accepting 900ml cartridges. This sealant gun is available from the same place that sells Green Glue or you can buy it from www.toolstation.com, at a lower price. The image below shows the green glue being applied:

The image below shows the Green Glue fully applied to the sheet of soundboard. This board would now be screwed in to the ceiling, Green Glue'd side, facing up, using 38mm drywall screws. Once again, all the screws would be driven into the resilient bars only. No screw must be driven into the battens.

Below is a picture of the 2nd layer of soundboard going up. The greenglue used was very very sticky/tacky. And smelly. (I have pics of the greenglue process in detail that I shall add later).

And here is the final product - the entire ceiling covered with the 2nd layer of soundboard:

Once again, any gaps were filled using acoustic sealant. At no point did the 2nd layer of soundboard touch any of the 4 walls. This ensured that vibrations did not carry from upstairs floor, down the walls and into the new ceiling.

Step 9: Remove wallpaper and prepare for the final skim of plaster on the ceiling
The picture says it all...

Step 10: Skim a layer of plaster onto the soundboard

The picture below was taken about 10 mins, after the plasterer left, so you can see it still looks wet:

Incidentally, before the plasterer plastered the ceiling, a layer of PVA glue was painted on.

Here is the ceiling with the plaster (almost) dried out:

That last picture was taken this morning. The soundproofing has effectively been completed, now all we have to do is decorate/finish the room. I will be installing cornice (which is what the original ceiling had), and reinstalling the lighting that was on the original ceiling. This should be done over the next week or so after the plaster has dried.



Noise Levels
Before soundproofing
The noise coming from up above (I live on the ground floor of a 2 storey building) was deafening at times. I could hear conversations quite clearly. Impact noise was a SERIOUS problem. The neighbours have laminate floors and every footstep sounded like a drum. Imagine listening to drum & bass music, everyday, early in the morning, because that is what it used to sound like. The situation was very serious and I was prepared to spare no expense in dealing with this problem. There was a large empty cavity above the ceiling and it was no surprise that every noise could be heard from above. This property seemed to have absolutely no provision for insulating against the passage of noise from one floor to the next. Before moving into this property 3 months ago, I had experienced nothing like this. I can't believe that many people in the UK have a noise problem in their home, such as the one I have.

After soundproofing
The noise coming from above has been SUBSTANTIALLY reduced. The only problem now is that the ambient noise level of the room is so quiet, when anyone makes a noise (say from upstairs) it can be heard. Voices cannot be heard. I did hear a baby crying at about 4am, but that was very faint. I feel that once I have sealed up the ceiling totally (something I wont be doing until the walls have been plastered and the chandelier arrives), then even a baby crying will be difficult to hear.

I cant stress enough that any noise (impact noise excepted) that I hear from upstairs now, I feel, is down to the fact that ambient noise level in the room is extraordinarily low. When the upstairs people are in another part of their flat, the room is in a state of pin drop silence. Once I get a computer in the room, with its fans whirring, I'm hoping to increase the ambient noise level and this should improve things further.

One problem that this solution hasnt solved is impact noise - while reduced, it still exists. I am now taking further steps against the owner of the property above, which could involve me taking him to court. But thats another story.

At this point I havent put any noise making equipment (eg. HiFi or TV) in the room, so I cant comment on how much the upstairs people can hear, yet. In time, I shall update this thread to include those details. My prediction though, is that unless someone is trying to sleep upstairs, having my tv/music on a high volume shouldnt bother anyone in the room above.



PS. I shall be updating this thread and list the costs involved.

brillant well done

[Richard_dcb]

Superb. Looking forward to the greenglue photos.

[sunama]

Hehehe, its kind of weird that I totally forgot to upload the greenglue photos. Its actually another guy on this forum who is hosting the pics, so it will probably be Monday before they are added.

For what its worth, Green glue is very "runny" in consistency. It isnt thick like a sealant. It takes quite a while to fully dry - in fact I dont think the green glue in my room has fully dried up yet and its been about a week since it was used. It does smell - my upstairs neighbours told me that there was a nasty stench coming in their room. The smell penetrated 1 layer of 140kg/cubic metre rockwool, a layer of soundproof membrane and another layer of 130mm thick rockwool. Its odour is strong.

For the living room, which will house my home cinema setup, I am thinking of using both resilient bars AND ceiling hangers. But this is just an idea at this point. A guy in New Zealand has recommended some sound clips. Hopefully I will speak to him on Monday in more detail about these.

Now that the SXRD has been released, I am seriously trying to get the living room completed. Its release has given me renewed vigour.

[IVOLIC]

Great work!!! You really put a lot of effort into this project. I guess the noise was pretty loud then. How's the soundproofing working out? Have you cancelled it out all together or can you still hear your neighbors?
Thanks for documenting your process and sharing it. Looking forward to more pics.

[sunama]

Ive only slept 2 nights in the room so far. The room is pretty much empty apart from a bed (there isnt even any lighting in there yet), so there is a lot of echo. Any noise in that room is being amplified right now.

Given the above, its very difficult for me to tell just how sucessful this has been. I just havent been in the room that much since the work was done. The main problem was impact noise. This is notoriously difficult to deal with but we did what was possible. The impact noise is still existent, but it is SUBSTANTIALLY REDUCED. Before I would be woken up every single day by the upstairs neighbours walking on their floor. Voices can no longer be heard at all (though you would expect that after all those layers were introduced). So when I bring my tv into the room, I'm hoping my neighbours upstairs wont be disturbed by it or any music I might play at night. Obviously at night I will keep to sensible volumes.

I will do some tests with my upstairs neighbour once I get the tv/hifi in, to see just how loud I can go before they hear my noise.

The BIG PROJECT is yet to come and that is the living room. This is the room that has to deal with the home cinema set-up along with all types of different frequencies. I'm already thinking of using ceiling hangers (from soundstop.co.uk) AND resilient bars on the ceiling. The good thing about my living room is that the 4 walls are not shared with anyone, so I can concentrate all my efforts on the ceiling (save for flanking noise, of course). I'm looking to order the products for that project this coming week.

[anacz1]

flipping heck but it'll look great when finished

[godskitchen]

What a great job you have done, its nice to see you are also thinking of your neighbours, thankfully i dont have that problem!

How long did it take you tro put up the sound board? I have done many hours slabbing ceilings, plasterboard, not the nicest job in the world!

[sunama]

Luckily it wasnt me who did the work. I employed the services of local builders who put it all up. If I did this it would not only have taken forever, but the final product would not be anywhere near as good.

The actual soundproofing part of the project took 4 days, then it took a few hours for the builders to prep the ceiling with pva and then another few hours to plaster it all up.

Right now because the room is pretty much empty, it is also totally quiet and this means that any other noise that is made feels louder than it would be in a room where there is more ambient noise. Once I get my computer in there with its fans pushing air we should get some ambient noise in which will make the noise made by the upstairs neighbours not sound so loud.

The prodedure needs to be repeated in the living room, only this time I think I will use ceiling hangers as opposed to reilient bars to decouple the joists and the new ceiling (Ive read that ceiling hangers are better than resilient bars). I'm still researching my options.

[stephen_]

Did you lose any ceiling height ???

[sunama]

Yes, 5 - 6 cms.

[mattym]

interesting that you find Green to smell, ive made a few assemblies, and the smell(what there was) disappeared quiet quickly.

Excellent thread though, very good of you to show the stages, and i look forward to the green glue piece!

[sunama]

I felt the smell was very strong for about 5 days after installation. It dries slowly as I felt the sides of the layers of soundboard and it was still sticky after a few days. But what really hit home, was when my neighbours actually informed me of the bad smell that was permeating their own bedroom. The smell had managed to get through a layer of soundboard, a 50mm layer of dense rockwool, another layer of 130mm rockwool and then their own floorboards and laminate flooring. So yep, my neighbours and I found the smell very strong.

[p203557]

It looks like you had a nice high ceiling to work with so not a problem for you but did this lower your celing compared to what it previously was?

[sunama]

The ceiling has finished up 5-6cm lower than it was previously.

[Londondecca]

Originally Posted by sunama

I felt the smell was very strong for about 5 days after installation. It dries slowly as I felt the sides of the layers of soundboard and it was still sticky after a few days. But what really hit home, was when my neighbours actually informed me of the bad smell that was permeating their own bedroom. The smell had managed to get through a layer of soundboard, a 50mm layer of dense rockwool, another layer of 130mm rockwool and then their own floorboards and laminate flooring. So yep, my neighbours and I found the smell very strong.

Excellent write up and pictures

The smell from Green Glue disappeared very quickly when I used it and I do not recall any threads on AVS about it penetrating another room - very strange

[Hudson]

That looks a top job, you could teach some of the joker so called well known builder firms a trick or two on how to sound proof the new flats they seem to be throwing up.

[sunama]

Hehehe. Thanks man. But keep in mind it wasnt me who did all this. I came up with the concept by doing lots of research. Then I instructed the builders on exactly what it was that I wanted. I was there the whole time the job was being done though.

The green glue pics have gone up.

I have also added a few technical details of what was actually done at each step.

[bluesilver]

fantastic post - I'm going to give my builder a copy of this!

what is the level of soundproofing now? any idea??

[sunama]

Hehehe. Thats the idea.

Ive also added in a little section at the end with comments regarding noise level.

Keep in mind guys that before soundproofing I had a SERIOUS noise issue in that room. I doubt if any of you would be starting off with that much of a problem. Hence, if you do something similar to what Ive done, you should have a ceiling that carries very little noise to the room above.

We had a similar problem when we moved into our ground floor flat two years ago. Within a month of moving in, we had new neighbours upstairs who started playing their TV loud and having friends over nearly every night, screaming and shouting at one another. It was a nightmare. Sometimes it was so bad, I just stopped trying to watch my own TV as I could not concentrate on the programme.

In the end we did something very similar in the living room and both bedrooms. It didn't totally stop the noise but it reduced it enough to be quite tolerable. Funnily enough though, six months later the neighbours moved on and the next occupants were considerably quieter.

Now, it's empty again upstairs but there's a Let By sign outside so we're bracing ourselves to see who we get this time.

[sunama]

Originally Posted by stafs

...
Sometimes it was so bad, I just stopped trying to watch my own TV as I could not concentrate on the programme.
...

Thats exactly how I feel sometimes. The thing is that voices dont bother me nearly as much as the constant banging that can be heard from the laminate floor.

[mjn]

I thought for the best sound proofing you should leave pockets of air between the layers of materials, as its this air gap that absorbs the excess sound?

I've never seen sound proofing done, where you just use loads of layers, before.

[sunama]

The only pocket of air would be between the top most rockwool layer and the floorboards of the upstairs room.

With regards to pockets of air, there is some research shown on the green glue website. It showed that the greater the percentage of "cavity" filled with some form of material (ie. insulation) the better the sound proofing.

Of course there are many different theories of how this process should be done. If you goto the avsforums they have got 1000s of posts regarding this.

Most sites though tend not to allow for having cavities/gaps.

When using green glue for example, the preferred method on walls, is to have 2 layers of soundboard, with a layer of green glue, on each side of the wall. If pinning the soundboard on a stud wall, the cavity should be filled with insulation with no gaps, if possible.

Also, if you refer to this site:
http://www.soundstop.co.uk/solutions...solution_1.php
...you will once again see there is no added gaps in between the layers. The only gap is right at the top, above the first layer of rockwool.

Personally, given that there are so many opinions, my belief is that there is little to choose in between the different methods. One thing I've noticed after reading through many threads/posts/opinions/articles regarding sound proofing is that the most important thing is to have lots of layers, and when using insulation make it as thick as possible (the density isnt so crucial). If you could have a wall/ceiling that has say, 1m of insulation, this should be very effective. Of course impact noise is something quite different and is always best dealt with at the point at which it is generated.

Ultimately, you'll just have to pick a method and go with it.

[Ted White]

What an epic documentation! Just curious, when you say "soundboard" are you meaning plasterboard?

Ted

[sunama]

Yes, in this case, soundboard = plasterboard.
I call it soundboard as it is a "special" version of plasterboard. It is denser than normal plasterboard and is extremely heavy. It has been especially designed by Knauf to deal with acoustic insulation. British Gypsum also make an acoustic plasterboard (soundboard) which they call Soundbloc. Lafarge call theirs dbCheck.

Some people have said that using an acoustic plasterboard is no better than ordinary plasterboard. My reply to that is that when involved in this project, you are spending upwards of £1000 on materials. Saving £20 on plasterboard wont really make much difference to the final cost of the project, but using acoustic plasterboard may just reduce noise transmission by 1 or 2 decibels.

[mattym]

interesting about the applicator from tool station, thats much less than we paid for them! /looks for suppliers phone number....

[paulthechippie]

Originally Posted by stafs

We had a similar problem when we moved into our ground floor flat two years ago. Within a month of moving in, we had new neighbours upstairs who started playing their TV loud and having friends over nearly every night, screaming and shouting at one another. It was a nightmare. Sometimes it was so bad, I just stopped trying to watch my own TV as I could not concentrate on the programme.

In the end we did something very similar in the living room and both bedrooms. It didn't totally stop the noise but it reduced it enough to be quite tolerable. Funnily enough though, six months later the neighbours moved on and the next occupants were considerably quieter.

Now, it's empty again upstairs but there's a Let By sign outside so we're bracing ourselves to see who we get this time.

Having completed numerous sound proofing instalations between flats all to have passed the B.S. test,I am very aware of your situation.Since as you say the flat above is currently unocuppied i would suggest that this is a good time to have a word with the letting agent/owner to make them aware of your concerns.From experience i have seen that speaking to both sides of the acoustic fence can yields benefits to all.A five minute chat may prevent the instalation of laminate flooring and suggesting the fitting of an acoustic underlay at the next carpet renewal is worth a try.Best of luck.

[sunama]

Paul, the problem with that though is that the landlord will generally treat the property as a cash cow. In all probability he wont want to spend any money at all on the property. Of course, he might be a good landlord and address the concerns.

In my case, the landlord is very miserly and doesnt want to spend a single penny. When I informed him that the laminate flooring above was driving me crazy he said that I should get a sound test done and we would take it from there. Ive spoken to the managing company (freeholders) of the property and they said that they will write to him. After this I'm considering going through the courts to get a result, as people like this will do anything and everything to delay any (soundproofing) work that might be on the agenda. As long as they get paid their monthly rent, they couldnt really care less.