[Pecker]

Okay, this is a very long-term project.

When I next move house we are going to buy one with enough room to build an extension. The extension will be a dedicated home cinema room. But it's worth planning ahead, and in the intervening period I wouldn't want to buy any kit that leads me up a dead end.

So, any ideas?

Budget is not limitless, but I'd like something like:

- Sim2 C3X projector
- CIW variable masking screen
- Seperate power amps
- M&K speakers

Over to you.

Ideas?

Sizes?

Must-haves?

Steve W

[M.D. Klapwijk]

In my opinion the only thing worth investing in for a longer time period would be your (stereo) speakers. All the other kit tends to get cheaper/better every month!

[Ted White]

This would have full acoustic treatments?

[Pecker]

Originally Posted by Ted White

This would have full acoustic treatments?

Would it? Should it? How much?

You tell me! That's what this thread is for.



Steve W

[Ted White]

There are a few sound issues you might want to consider:

THX specs a low noise floor. Essentially so during a quiet scene you are not listening to your neighbors. This involves sound isolation

You may want to turn up the volume without having people come in and tell you to "turn that down."

Hard, untreated surfaces in the theater will not be pleasant. For multi-channel playback you might consider wall treatments beyond simply addressing the first reflections. In a 7.1 system, in a sense all surfaces are first reflections.

[inzaman]

Steve how about CIH, there are a lot of posts on the subject if you want to read up on it

What about a processor, and why the Sim, why not one of the Dila pjs, as this could save a bit of money that could go towards your power amp or amps. If separate power amps then Bryston is a good make, or have you thought about the new Arcam or the Arcamm 888/777 combo that is coming out?

[Pecker]

Originally Posted by inzaman

Steve how about CIH, there are a lot of posts on the subject if you want to read up on it

I'll check that out, I've been hearing good things.

Originally Posted by inzaman

...and why the Sim, why not one of the Dila pjs...

I've always preferred the look of dlp over LCD (and LCD-based) projectors. But I'll be sure to have a demo when I get chance.

My hope is that maybe, by the time this happens, LED-based DLP projectors will have come into their own. Whatever, my next projector will not exhibit rainbows.

Steve W

[Pecker]

Originally Posted by Ted White

There are a few sound issues you might want to consider:

THX specs a low noise floor. Essentially so during a quiet scene you are not listening to your neighbors. This involves sound isolation

You may want to turn up the volume without having people come in and tell you to "turn that down."

Hard, untreated surfaces in the theater will not be pleasant. For multi-channel playback you might consider wall treatments beyond simply addressing the first reflections. In a 7.1 system, in a sense all surfaces are first reflections.

I think the first thought in building an extension was to stop any noise leaking out or in, in as far as is possible.

Rather than build the room then treat it, I'd rather eliminate as many problems as possible from the start. So, would you have felt-covered walls, or what?

Steve W

[Pecker]

Okay, one thing I've been considering is a separate projector room.

PJs can be noisy, and act like fan heaters. So, given that I can start from scratch, I thought maybe have a small room at the back of the cinema room with a small window (I think you can get a particular sort of glass that won't distort or degrade the projected image).

I'd also use this room as my 'library' to keep my DVDs/Blu-ray Discs, as well as holding the equipment, again as it can be noisy and/or hot.

Comments?

Steve W

[illingworth22]

Originally Posted by inzaman

Steve how about CIH, there are a lot of posts on the subject if you want to read up on it

What about a processor, and why the Sim, why not one of the Dila pjs, as this could save a bit of money that could go towards your power amp or amps. If separate power amps then Bryston is a good make, or have you thought about the new Arcam or the Arcamm 888/777 combo that is coming out?

No Prices on the web site ....ouch sound like a lot of cash!!!!

Any idea how much?

[albriscoe]

Steve

as your quite near to me you are very welcome to come and see/hear some MK`s and a Sim pj.

Also a darkened room with acoustic treatments as well.

The Brystons are a belting amp and coupled with an Onkyo processor will really make the MK`s sing.

[Pecker]

Many thanks. I may get in touch in the Summer break.

Steve W

[AndyST]

As you're actually building a room from scratch then the first thing to consider would be the dimensions to minimise the effect of room modes. The length, width, and height should not be equal or multiples of one another. If possible make the walls non-parallel too.

If it's a dedicated room I assume it won't have windows, so do you need some form of ducting/air conditioning to take air in and out of the room?

It also helps to plan your acoustic treatments well in advance so these can easily be integrated during the construction phase.

[Pecker]

Originally Posted by AndyST

As you're actually building a room from scratch then the first thing to consider would be the dimensions to minimise the effect of room modes. The length, width, and height should not be equal or multiples of one another. If possible make the walls non-parallel too.

If it's a dedicated room I assume it won't have windows, so do you need some form of ducting/air conditioning to take air in and out of the room?

It also helps to plan your acoustic treatments well in advance so these can easily be integrated during the construction phase.

All good ideas - thanks.

So, what would you do for acoustic treatments?

If the walls aren't to be multiples of each other - let's say initially you had planned 4m x 4m. Let's keep that 4m long - how much larger or small does the width need to be? 10cm? 50cm?

Also, I understand that bass from the subwoofer can cause problems in some rooms because they're too small. What's the minimum size of the room to minimise these issues?

Steve W

[Dr Force]

Originally Posted by Pecker

I'll check that out, I've been hearing good things.





I've always preferred the look of dlp over LCD (and LCD-based) projectors. But I'll be sure to have a demo when I get chance.

My hope is that maybe, by the time this happens, LED-based DLP projectors will have come into their own. Whatever, my next projector will not exhibit rainbows.

Steve W

Hi Steve

I have the Mits HC6000 1080p 24,and for the money I think it is outstanding.

Hd material is breathtaking and extremely sharp, there is not a hint of any motion blurring, no chicken wire effect due to the no of pixels and it is a doddle to set up.

The video processing is also very good and SD material looks very good if you let the PJ do the scaling.

Blacks are very nice but perhaps not as deep as DLP but it's definately a future proof PJ.

I am not all that clued up on acoustic treatment, which will depend entirely on your room size, dimensions and positioning of the speakers. My room is an extension with dimensions of 2.4m x 4.6m which is rectangular and not bass freindly. I have had to fiddle with the sub to get a less boomy sound (thanks to Russ), however apart from that my SVS speakers produce a great sound.

The room has 1 layer of acoustic board which has been dot and dabbed onto the internal walls and then skimmed over. the floor is screeded with a thick underlay and carpet which helps with reflections and a fire door has been hung to help sound proofing.

It is all very basic and in my humble opinion I would not get too hung up on acoustic treatments, as you could end up with a dead sound which is far harder to correct than adding furnishings/drapes to dampen the sound.

I am not an expert, I just love film and I decided that applying too much science can somewhat confuse matters.

I have the screen coming through the ceiling (using removeable mdf) and so you can also use it as a chill out area to listen to music with the screen up and curtains open.

Lots to think about Steve and I hope it all goes well

[Neil Davidson]

Steve,

As you will know, I believe that one of the most important aspects of cinema design is using a solid engineering approach based on industry standards.

At CEDIA last week I taught the Home Cinema Design Specialist class which is now CEDIA's highest level of certification. In that class we use the reccomended practise documents (which have now been adopted as official standards by the CEA in America) which allows me to break the process down in to a series of pretty standard calculations. What that means is you can give me a room and I can be almost certain that create a reference level system in any room in just a few hours.

If you fancy picking a dimension for me to work with (room width and number of seats are good ones to start from) I can work out an example that people may find interesting?

[Pecker]

Cheers Neil.

I was thinking of sitting maybe 3.5m from a 3m wide 16:9 screen.

So the room's length would need to be 3.5m + however far you think it'd be best to leave behind for the rears (7.1 set up, BTW).

Width-wise? Maybe 4m-5m, I'm guessing. Number of seats? Let's say 3 or 4 wide, and maybe 2 rows. But one thing is that I don't want it to look like a 'home cinema', I want it to look like a lounge (only a 'bat cave' lounge with a fixed screen). Not sure how two rows would fit in with that.

Would you have any comments on the 'projection room' idea? (See Post #9) Is that glass expensive? Initially it sounds like a perfect idea, but is there anything I've not thought of?

Cheers.

Originally Posted by Dr Force

Hi Steve

I have the Mits HC6000 1080p 24,and for the money I think it is outstanding.

Hd material is breathtaking and extremely sharp, there is not a hint of any motion blurring, no chicken wire effect due to the no of pixels and it is a doddle to set up.

The video processing is also very good and SD material looks very good if you let the PJ do the scaling.

Blacks are very nice but perhaps not as deep as DLP but it's definately a future proof PJ.

I am not all that clued up on acoustic treatment, which will depend entirely on your room size, dimensions and positioning of the speakers. My room is an extension with dimensions of 2.4m x 4.6m which is rectangular and not bass freindly. I have had to fiddle with the sub to get a less boomy sound (thanks to Russ), however apart from that my SVS speakers produce a great sound.

The room has 1 layer of acoustic board which has been dot and dabbed onto the internal walls and then skimmed over. the floor is screeded with a thick underlay and carpet which helps with reflections and a fire door has been hung to help sound proofing.

It is all very basic and in my humble opinion I would not get too hung up on acoustic treatments, as you could end up with a dead sound which is far harder to correct than adding furnishings/drapes to dampen the sound.

I am not an expert, I just love film and I decided that applying too much science can somewhat confuse matters.

I have the screen coming through the ceiling (using removeable mdf) and so you can also use it as a chill out area to listen to music with the screen up and curtains open.

Lots to think about Steve and I hope it all goes well

In a recent review here at AVF, PhilHinton said the JVC DLA-HD750 (c.£5,500) was the best PJ he'd seen under £20k. If blacks are the main weakness, would a high contrast screen be a good idea? Blacks appear to be good on the model already.

Steve W

[Neil Davidson]

Steve,

Lots of open questions there but also enough to make some pretty easy observations...

1. 3m wide screen and two rows implies quite a big room. 6m long as a minimum for everyone to be comfy!

2. Two rows will always look like a cinema because you will have to put the second row on a riser. Using sofas helps to soften this out though.

3. If it is really a bat cave - why care about how it looks? I am not a fan of bat caves where the walls are black, ceiling black etc. I consider having blackout conditions quite different from a "bat cave"

4. Enclosing the projector is a great idea if it is a noisier model or you are looking at creating a very low noise floor in the room. Thermal management is also helped by enclosing the projector and drawing the heat away. Having a completely separate space for the equipment and projector will always be the ideal case.

5. Optical quality glass is not cheap but if you know the right supplier, not mega expensive either.

6. The main problem with consumer projectors these days is not black level but light output. There is minimal contrast benefit to be had from high contrast screens in rooms with black walls and ceilings. If the room is more normally decorated then high contrast screens can certainly be an advantage.

When considering screens you need to think about a lot more than just the gain. The colour that you see coming off the screen is directly related to the spectral response of the material and this can vary greatly from brand to brand. It is possible to calibrate out a lot of this but certainly not all.

Originally Posted by Pecker

Cheers Neil.

I was thinking of sitting maybe 3.5m from a 3m wide 16:9 screen.

So the room's length would need to be 3.5m + however far you think it'd be best to leave behind for the rears (7.1 set up, BTW).

Width-wise? Maybe 4m-5m, I'm guessing. Number of seats? Let's say 3 or 4 wide, and maybe 2 rows. But one thing is that I don't want it to look like a 'home cinema', I want it to look like a lounge (only a 'bat cave' lounge with a fixed screen). Not sure how two rows would fit in with that.

Would you have any comments on the 'projection room' idea? (See Post #9) Is that glass expensive? Initially it sounds like a perfect idea, but is there anything I've not thought of?

Cheers.



In a recent review here at AVF, PhilHinton said the JVC DLA-HD750 (c.£5,500) was the best PJ he'd seen under £20k. If blacks are the main weakness, would a high contrast screen be a good idea? Blacks appear to be good on the model already.

Steve W

[Isco 3]

Ι will always start with room dimensions that the modal density is high. You can use a software to do that, but I much prefer solving the wave equation in Matlab and finding the results myself (I feel I'm in control ).
Another common mistake would be to place the audience next to the room's boundaries where the particle velocity is very low, so they will end up with a messy response. You need to place everybody into the room's moderate acoustic zone, so when you calibrate the bass everybody gets the benefit.

You do that right, everything else can easily fall into place...

You can never stop engineering a home cinema. Designing silencers for the HVAC system, tunning the risers to the room's resonances, designing your own diffusion that work best for the seated audience, etc. You can do a phD on the topic!

Originally Posted by Pecker

Okay, this is a very long-term project.

When I next move house we are going to buy one with enough room to build an extension. The extension will be a dedicated home cinema room. But it's worth planning ahead, and in the intervening period I wouldn't want to buy any kit that leads me up a dead end.

So, any ideas?

Budget is not limitless, but I'd like something like:

- Sim2 C3X projector
- CIW variable masking screen
- Seperate power amps
- M&K speakers

Over to you.

Ideas?

Sizes?

Must-haves?

Steve W

[Dr Force]

Originally Posted by Pecker

Cheers Neil.

I was thinking of sitting maybe 3.5m from a 3m wide 16:9 screen.

So the room's length would need to be 3.5m + however far you think it'd be best to leave behind for the rears (7.1 set up, BTW).

Width-wise? Maybe 4m-5m, I'm guessing. Number of seats? Let's say 3 or 4 wide, and maybe 2 rows. But one thing is that I don't want it to look like a 'home cinema', I want it to look like a lounge (only a 'bat cave' lounge with a fixed screen). Not sure how two rows would fit in with that.

Would you have any comments on the 'projection room' idea? (See Post #9) Is that glass expensive? Initially it sounds like a perfect idea, but is there anything I've not thought of?

Cheers.



In a recent review here at AVF, PhilHinton said the JVC DLA-HD750 (c.£5,500) was the best PJ he'd seen under £20k. If blacks are the main weakness, would a high contrast screen be a good idea? Blacks appear to be good on the model already.

Steve W

I think the blacks are great on th 6000 but I have always tyhought DLP has the edge at a similar price range

[mannyjarnail]

Know some people may say that this is a bit over the top but i found it made a huge difference to my system.

1) Seperate consumer unit with trip switches for just for the home cinema room.

Additional benefits of doing this is if you have mains filteration device some have a higher rating than 3130 watts fuse limit, which you can then wire directly into a trip switch. Isotek titan for example rated at 16 amps.

A number of amps are also limited by the fuse just to name a couple Bryston 28BSST & Krell 700cx absolute beasts.

2) 10mm Electrical cable from the main Consumer box to the Consumer unit in the Room.

3) Keep the low voltage lighting & dimmer switches connected to the house loop not in the home cinema room consumer unit as i have noticed the backgroud noise of you system increases when the low voltage lighting is used even if it is connected to a seperate trip switch within the home cinema consumer unit.

4) If you can star earthing.

5) MK sockets.

6) MK speakers do not need alot to drive them so i would not go to mad on the power amplification, although i would recommend a Bryston 9BSST or 9BSST2 Awesome amplifier.

7) Subs MK 350THX MK1/MK2 or 5000THX MK2 immense in my opinion.

Hope this helps.

Originally Posted by Pecker

Okay, this is a very long-term project.

When I next move house we are going to buy one with enough room to build an extension. The extension will be a dedicated home cinema room. But it's worth planning ahead, and in the intervening period I wouldn't want to buy any kit that leads me up a dead end.

So, any ideas?

Budget is not limitless, but I'd like something like:

- Sim2 C3X projector
- CIW variable masking screen
- Seperate power amps
- M&K speakers

Over to you.

Ideas?

Sizes?

Must-haves?

Steve W

[Pecker]

Kicking some more ideas around.

I want to rid myself of black bars either at the top & bottom of the screen or the left and right.

Fixed electric, variable masking screens appear to be massively expensive, so I'm thinking of going for a fixed 2.40:1 screen, with electric curtains to cover the sides for 1.85:1, 4:3, etc.

Anamorphic lenses are expensive, tricky to set up, and can degrade PQ. And did I mention expensive? So I'm looking at a 'zoom' option. This appears to rule out dlp projectors, so maybe I could go for the 750.

Just zoom to get the image to fill the height of the screen, then move the curatains to the correct width - infinite aspect ratios available.

Of course, it could be argued that, once zoomed, the picture would be degraded. Problem solved by variable distance seating. Now, how do I solve that one...

Comments?

Steve W

[RipMaster]

Originally Posted by Pecker

Kicking some more ideas around.
......

Of course, it could be argued that, once zoomed, the picture would be degraded. Problem solved by variable distance seating. Now, how do I solve that one...

Comments?

Steve W

Sofa with casters?

[KhalJimbo]

How are you planning it to look out of curiosity?

ie: Is it going to be a themed room made to look like an actual cinema, with curtains infront of the screen and pillars on the walls or just a box with speakers and a screen?

[Pecker]

Originally Posted by Earthworm Jim

How are you planning it to look out of curiosity?

ie: Is it going to be a themed room made to look like an actual cinema, with curtains infront of the screen and pillars on the walls or just a box with speakers and a screen?

Good question.

It's not going to look like a scaled-down cinema.

Screen at one end (fixed permanently, but possible with the entire wall covered by a curtain when not in use.

Recliner-sofa for seating.

Probably speakers at the front not in-wall, but on stands.

Nothing in the room apart from the front 3 speakers, the sofa and a coffee table.

Walls decorated with film posters.

Colour scheme dark blue.

Steve W

[KhalJimbo]

Thats going to look so cool when its done, any ideas for start dates as for screens (I know you have this in the other section) have you seen the curved screens over on the AVSforums?

[Pecker]

I won't be going curved, that's for sure. Real cinema screens went curved for a very short time in the '50's due to the huge nature of early cinemascope presentations, but this is not now the norm.

Start? Could be a few years, so don't hold your breath.

Steve W

[PA28]

Originally Posted by Pecker

Okay, one thing I've been considering is a separate projector room.

Originally Posted by Pecker

PJs can be noisy, and act like fan heaters. So, given that I can start from scratch, I thought maybe have a small room at the back of the cinema room with a small window (I think you can get a particular sort of glass that won't distort or degrade the projected image).

I'd also use this room as my 'library' to keep my DVDs/Blu-ray Discs, as well as holding the equipment, again as it can be noisy and/or hot.

Comments?

Steve W

If you're looking at a separate PJ room then just make sure that your chosen projector has a throw adjustment to accommodate the distance to screen - my limited experience is that many have a short zoom range.

I also considered glazing the projector window but found that it wasn't necessary; the noise of most projectors won't be heard in the auditorium, there is no distortion or reflection with no glass, and it assists in ventilation.

[Pecker]

You mean just leave an empty space?

Hmmm. Could do, then buy glass later if it doesn't work.

Great idea.

Steve W