Momentary Switch

[21stcenturyelec]

Hi all I'm new here

I'm currently building a house for myself and have been looking at various lighting systems.

Dynalite
C-bus
Comfort integrated with x10
X10 standalone

The option that would be cheapest looks like the X10, I would be using the Din rail modules ie LD11, hard wired to momentary switches.

I'm struggling to find a single gang plate with 6-8 buttons on them, I'm a spark and know about the MK grid stuff but they are not sleek enough.

Does anyone know of a manufacturer that does a plate like say the dynalite stainless ones.

[DaveChester]

Hi

There is a reason the X10 stuff is cheap. As a spark I would have thought you are ideally placed to put a 'proper' lighting system like the dynalight one in? Most people are put off by recabling costs (cable and labour) I can't imagine either of these influence you?
I'm a believer in you get what you pay for so I would do it properly.
Just my 2p.

[21stcenturyelec]

Putting in any system is not an issue in terms of ability and as its new build its even easier and FYI its been wired to accommodate a bus wired system or clean contact wired system like X10 (cable is cheap and my time is well spent).

The issue is cost of product verse function, I here what you are saying about you get what you pay for.

[Daniel SL]

we (company we) have removed a dynalite system from a job and replaced it with crestron lighting.

the dynalite was unreliable, and the crestron is rock solid. YMMV.

I guess if Dynalite is out of the question, Lutron and Crestron lighting are well out of the equation...

[21stcenturyelec]

Originally Posted by extrasupreme

we (company we) have removed a dynalite system from a job and replaced it with crestron lighting.

the dynalite was unreliable, and the crestron is rock solid. YMMV.

I guess if Dynalite is out of the question, Lutron and Crestron lighting are well out of the equation...

What kind of problems did you have ?

[dalethecaptain]

If you are looking for an nice low profile designer switch, have at look at these custom units by Forbes & Lomax.

These are not cheap, but they look fantastic and the face plates can be designed to work with most systems, with the exception of proprietary systems like Dynalite, Lutron etc.

You will also need to think about future proofing your new build, I think the likes of X10 are a little rudimentary for running whole house systems, and if you have too upgrade the system every 7-10 years you need to look at the overall cost rather than the initial outlay.

[neilball]

I have never used X10 but there are other forums that have active users, have a google to fins out more. Basic control issues with X10 are that they do not do scene setting and therefore require a momentary switch for each circuit under control. Some modules do support "come on at last level" but still require individual switching unless you add some sort of home automation controller to try and tie it all together. There are also lots of reports about slow speed of control i.e. lights come on a second or two after pressing the switch, comms problems between modules can mean less than 100% guarantee of operation when pressing a switch etc. It does sound like X10 can be 100% reliable if you can keep the mains clean or use appropriate filters etc but if it is not reliable then where do you go for tech support to try and fault-find unless you call on the goodwill of other users.

If you are an electrician then have you approached the lighting manufacturers for trade pricing/training etc. Network/installation design rules, commissioning/testing etc are all covered in training (which will be chargeable) but you are then able to competently specify and commission these more complex systems.

In terms of cost you also need to compare apples with apples - X10 uses din-rail modules that need building and wiring into enclosures with suitable circuit protection. Most proper controls come in enclosures ready for installation so there will be a large cost difference here. If you want scene setting lighting at the best price then the Helvar 458 range offers 8 channels of dimming (10A max load shared between 2 channels) for a little over £1k plus Vat and offer discounts to trade resellers. Keypads are £130+vat in a range of metal finishes which is also cheaper than many of the other manufacturers. If you think that is too expensive then you are not going to find many, if any, lighting control systems that meet your budget expectations. It is also unfair to comapre the price of alarm panel keypads to lighting controls, they are very different, I've yet to see an attractive £40 fire alarm panel that can match exactly in size/style the other electrical accessories in a residential installation whereas I know if I am fitting lighting controls with Wandsworth, Hamilton, F&L etc accessories then I can put either get a close match for my lighting keypads or can have blanks & mounting frames punched/engraved to provide a perfect match.

Oh and you will not find "proper" lighting controls being sold online unless it is through distributors who have restricted "trade only" sections of their website. The systems need professional installation (it would need to comply with electrical & building regs after all) and are often sold through distribution to enable resellers to offer local design, supply and commission packages. If you are looking to become a reseller then the distributors (and some manufacturers) will quite happily talk to about trade prices and design/comissioning support. Get trained and you will not need "expensive" manufacturer commissioning services either.

[benwillcox]

I think you might struggle to get 6 or 8 ways in a single gang. Clipsal do a 5 outlet modular plate such as here http://www.letsautomate.com/clipsal.cfm? and I think they do more in a double gang version.

I use X10 in my house, mainly because it is a retro-fit to an existing building. On the whole it works well, but it does have its limitations. for example, I recently had a problem whereby some of my lights would randomly turn on, and my X10 remote control became unresponsive. I tracked this down to a laptop PSU which must have been causing some interference with the X10 communications, once unplugged everything was fine.
Another limitation is when using the local control of the X10 modules, any automation system is then unable to track the current status of the devices.
If you control the devices via X10 however, an automation system (i,e. the X10 computer interface) can keep track of module status and you can setup rules based on the current state of the device. I believe that in the US some of the high-end modules also transmit X10 when local control is used, but not the UK modules to my knowledge.

The LD11 modules have pre-set dim, so it is possible to use lighting themes with the appropriate software ( I dont use this though).

I did briefly look at some of the other lighting systems, and but the price of them is enough to make your eyes water! X10 does have the advantage of being very cheap!

Ben